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New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last

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ttwtt78640 said:
Why that is, mainly, is it simply takes less skill to feed "the machine" and remove its output, than to have the skill to actually make the things that "the machine" now makes. Except for those few skilled workers that adjust/repair "the machine" the rest are mostly semi-skilled "drones" that are fairly easy to replace. A missing link in your graph is that wages (take home pay) is not the only employer cost of labor, those wonderful pension and medical care benefit "labor" costs that are not in that paycheck went up instead. Note the increase in employer provided medical care benefits over that 1980 - present period. Also note the cost of "defined benefit" retirement plans for past retirees, that were phased out at about that time (even the federal gov't switched from CSRS to FERS in 1986), continued to grow for those "lucky" folks that had COLA deals that kept pace with inflation. After the switch to "defined contribution", rather than "defined benefit", retirement plans the employer did not increase the salaries of those workers, but instead used the "savings" to pay (otherwise unfunded) retirement obligations to past workers "defined benefit" plans. After these "lucky" folks die off, the profits may rise enough to give decent raises to current "drone" workers.
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Profits are only profits AFTER all costs of labor are calculated in. The graph shows profits not gross sales. The additional money did not go to pensions it went to the CEO's and management who saw enormous increases in salaries and benefits most likely as "reward" for the huge increases in productivity that automation, stagant wage growth and reduced labor needs gave their balance sheets. And it came at such a conveinient time, rates for high earners had just been slashed and those executives could sock away alot of that money for themselves. Wasn't that nice of the US Govt? Now the top 5% have "socked away" over $40 Trillion and the Govt. is broke and needs to cut it's budget.
How did that happen?
 
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iguanaman said:
Profits are only profits AFTER all costs of labor are calculated in. The graph shows profits not gross sales. The additional money did not go to pensions it went to the CEO's and management who saw enormous increases in salaries and benefits most likely as "reward" for the huge increases in productivity that automation, stagant wage growth and reduced labor needs gave their balance sheets. And it came at such a conveinient time, rates for high earners had just been slashed and those executives could sock away alot of that money for themselves. Wasn't that nice of the US Govt? Now the top 5% have "socked away" over $40 Trillion and the Govt. is broke and needs to cut it's budget.
How did that happen?
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Are you kidding me? Productivity does not equal profit. CEO and management COSTS are not PROFIT (or productivity). Get a grip on reality. Supply your source for this assertion, that productivity = profit nonsense.

The standard measure of productivity is total economic output divided by hours spent on labor.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...higher-productivity-doesnt-mean-higher-wages/
 
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ecofarm said:
If someone thinks other countries have such great healthcare, go see. I did, it's not so great in Europe.
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Anecdote versus actual statistics. That's the difference.

In real health outcomes "socialized" medicine in Europe outpaces our pay for service system in every category. The rational conclusion is theirs is better.
 
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Surtr said:
We also have a much higher population than those "developed" countries as well. The only nation on the list that even comes close to matching ours is Japan, and they're short about 200 million. Makes a pretty huge difference, since higher numbers of people will mean that we have a higher number of crimes and health issues than nations with a vastly smaller population.
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Um... aren't the figures adjusted for population?
 
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beerftw said:
the deathby violence doesnt seem right,last time i checked australia had a higher ratio than us,but then again the chart uses an outdated chart for its comparison.
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No, we have a higher rate of non-fatal violence.
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
Yep. Chalk one up for efficiency/automation. It takes less workers, less time to make more things. All the unions and protectionism in the world will not change that.
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The purposes of unions -- and in extreme cases, protectionism -- are not to prevent productivity gains, but to be sure that the costs that come with them are shared as equitably as tne benefits.
 
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PirateMk1 said:
If you or some one else is obese its none of my concern. I dont see were it would be the concern of government or society at large. Or for that matter why anybody would care except maybe the person who is obese or their familiy. I have been obese I have been athletically built at differnt points in my life.
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I don't agree with you: I feel concerned about people with obesity problems. Especially if they start having mobility or other problems ...

In fact, I feel concern for people in general. Their well being is my well being to some extent. I live in a society, not next to it.

Concern for the well being of others is the fondation of society. Concern for your children, concern for your parents, concern for your family, concern for your neighboors, concern for the old lady who lives all alone on the other side of the street etc. Concern for your fellow citizens. Concern for sick people. And from a certain stadium, obesity is a sickness or causes other sicknesses: heart diseases, cholesterol, problems with the back or the knees, or both, uterus bleeding etc.

Charities and insurances are based on this feeling of concern for others. In charities, resources are pooled together in order to fund research in a certain area - Can be cancer or any other deadly illness. If you fund a charity fighting heart deceases, you'll support programs teaching people how to lower the risk of heart disease including programs fighting obesity.... In insurances, resources are also pooled together to pay for the very high costs of particular illnesses. The less people will get ill, the more resources the insurances will have. It des not matter whether it's a private or a public insurance: they all work according to the same principles.

You can of course live like a bear in your cavern but most people don't ;)
 
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Catawba said:
We will have to eventually upgrade to single payer plan as the rest of the industrialized world has done, people will not continue to support the worst outcomes for the highest cost.
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Wanna bet? Some of us most definitely will defend the current system to the death (most likely our own).
 
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lpast said:
Im not going to take this one study as gospel...I would have to see figures from other organizations
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What has been holding you back? Reports of the dismal standing of the US health care system in comparison to those in other major economies are stacked up to the ceiling. We have been paying the most while receiving nearly the least, and the situation has been getting wrose, not better. That has been the message from everywhere...
 
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Tigger said:
Wanna bet? Some of us most definitely will defend the current system to the death (most likely our own).
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So the logical thing then is to die from a treatable disease rather than be cured by a doctor who takes Medicare?
 
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Dragonfly said:
New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last - Grace Rubenstein - The Atlantic



PHUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!
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The ususal suspects on this board have latched on to these figures as evidence for single payer or socialized medicine. Yet with the possible exception of the last item, none of the other factors would be impacted by a change in our health care delivery system one bit. But then again, liberals are not known for letting facts get in the way of their agenda.
 
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Cardinal Fang said:
So the logical thing then is to die from a treatable disease rather than be cured by a doctor who takes Medicare?
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In my mind, YES. I will not take a single penny worth of Government Medical Care. It's that simple. It's actually written into my living will.
 
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In Australia we basically have a two tier system. We all pay into the "free health" scheme but if we want to go private we can. It is the best of both worlds. You don't have to be rich to use the private system. A family cover can cost you around $50.00 per week and a single person can obtain cover for around $25 per week. I don't have to worry about going broke to pay my medical bills ever. I don't have to worry that if i get sick, my Insurance Company will decide they don't want to pay my claim. I choose the level of cover i want and pay the appropriate premium for the level of cover selected. The choice is mine. Not the health funds.

Coming from a Country that has a working UHC scheme, i don't understand such anger and animosity at the thought of the government having some control over your health care. It's not like what you have now is working or anything special. While you are so hell bent on shouting down the public option, all you are doing is lobbying to keep pouring money into the pockets of insurance companies who have been the ones rationing healthcare as you see it today. The health insurance companies do not care about you, if they did they would not focus so much of their time trying to get out of paying claims and compromising yours and your families health while premiums keep increasing. :shrug:

At the end of the day, it's really not much good having some of the best health care facilities and Doctors in the world (which the US do), if people don't have access to it in a timely and afforable manner.
 
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Serenity said:
Coming from a Country that has a working UHC scheme, i don't understand such anger and animosity at the thought of the government having some control over your health care. It's not like what you have now is working or anything special. While you are so hell bent on shouting down the public option, all you are doing is lobbying to keep pouring money into the pockets of insurance companies who have been the ones rationing healthcare as you see it today. The health insurance companies do not care about you, if they did they would not focus so much of their time trying to get out of paying claims and compromising yours and your families health while premiums keep increasing. :shrug:
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Let me see if I can explain it to you. There are still more than a few of us here in the United States who believe two things when it comes to healthcare: a) Healthcare is a Privilege, not a Right & b) Since it is a Privilege, it is up to each individual how much or how little of it they want to avail themselves of and/or pay for. It's something we call Personal Responsibility.

What we have now IS working for a vast majority of American citizens. It may not be a perfect system, but it's one we're used to and which works for most of us. The Federal/State Governments do not have out best interests in mind any more than the insurance companies do. In fact, I would suggest that the Government is even less likely to have my best interst in mind than the insurance company.

Serenity said:
At the end of the day, it's really not much good having some of the best health care facilities and Doctors in the world (which the US do), if people don't have access to it in a timely and afforable manner.
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At the end of the day it is not a good idea to allow the Government to tell you how you have to run your life, what medical care you can, can't, and have to get, and how much you must pay for your (and everyone else's) healthcare.
 
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Fletch said:
The ususal suspects on this board have latched on to these figures as evidence for single payer or socialized medicine.
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These figures are just another drop in the ocean. Where have you been all this time? Do you know why health care was such a big issue in the 2008 campaign? Do you know why Clinton tried to reform health care? Nixon?
 
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Tigger said:
At the end of the day it is not a good idea to allow the Government to tell you how you have to run your life, what medical care you can, can't, and have to get, and how much you must pay for your (and everyone else's) healthcare.
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Hmmm. Better than 60% of the health care provided by the system you wish to die for is funded through public programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, TRI-CARE, S-CHIP, and the VA.
 
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PirateMk1 said:
Like I said I have a very high deductable plan with a very cheap premium. Its actual insurance. You dont use unless you are in serious deep kimchi. Like holes being plugged, kindneys being replaced, livers repaired. That sort of thing. Most peoples insurance is prepaid medical and thats why its so bloody expensive. Between my deductable my insurance payment and what I normaly spend in a year on medical expences for the familiy I am currently at a twentieth of what a normal health care premium would be. Hell even when I was building up the deductable reserve I was still at a third the cost. Another secret is that because I have a subsantial deductable saved up in the HSA there are now years were the health care for the year is paid for by the interest on the account investments and we actually make a small bit of money. Further there is enough in the dedcutable right now to be able to substantialy pay for major surgeries without tapping into the insurance. Which means to me that fat people dont effect MY premiums as much as they effect yours. Simple mathmatics I pay less premium therefore the cost a fat person would add is corispondingly less. My insurance is very simple. There are no bells and whistles. If I or my family needs to access it, it will pay 100% including corrisponding perscriptions and any anccileraries after the deductable which is substantial, about 25,000. However the cap is 10,000,000. Thats a lot of hospital care. Between this and the familiy cash only physician theres very little we actually subsidize with our medical dollars.
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That's the sort of plan we should all have, insurance rather than pre paid medical. Costs would go down dramatically.

As it is though, people with lifestyle illnesses still cost the rest of us as costs are averaged out for a group.
 
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Dittohead not! said:
That's the sort of plan we should all have, insurance rather than pre paid medical. Costs would go down dramatically.
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You can save a lot of money on gas by not having a car.

Dittohead not! said:
As it is though, people with lifestyle illnesses still cost the rest of us as costs are averaged out for a group.
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Yeah, us sedentary people are getting sick and tired of paying for all those knee surgeries for joggers.
 
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Cardinal Fang said:
You can save a lot of money on gas by not having a car.


Yeah, us sedentary people are getting sick and tired of paying for all those knee surgeries for joggers.
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LOL! You do have a point there. Moreover, the sedentary people don't cost as much for social security, either.
 
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Cardinal Fang said:
Hmmm. Better than 60% of the health care provided by the system you wish to die for is funded through public programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, TRI-CARE, S-CHIP, and the VA.
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Which is exactly why my Living Will is written the way it is. Even while I have insurance, any medical service that would be required to be paid for by the Government is not allowed. I figure I've got about 3 years (tops) before I end up toast once I reach age 65.
 
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Tigger said:
Wanna bet? Some of us most definitely will defend the current system to the death (most likely our own).
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Yes, a very tiny percentage of the public would defend to the death the most expensive health care system in the world. Those people are irrelevant politically, and they have no plan to reduce health care costs in this country.

BTW, I thought you were leaving the country. What happened with that?
 
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Cardinal Fang said:
These figures are just another drop in the ocean. Where have you been all this time? Do you know why health care was such a big issue in the 2008 campaign? Do you know why Clinton tried to reform health care? Nixon?
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Figures that are irrelevant to the quality or cost of care are irrelevant to the quality or cost of care. But it not a shock that you would defend them as relevant anyway.
 
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