• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Utah 6th-grader in custody after bringing gun to school

Excon said:
No Maggie.
"What the **** is wrong with people??"
Is exactly what I am thinking reading your reply.
It makes no sense what-so-ever, and is just emotive codswallop.

It isn't a criminal offense. Nor should it ever be.

Secondly you seem to be jumping to conclusions.

How did he get it?
Do you know if it was locked away and he had to break-in to get it or not?
Click to expand...

Why do you ask how he got it? If it isn't wrong, what difference does it make?

When I made my initial reply, I didn't know that the gun wasn't loaded. (And now I see that, although the gun wasn't loaded, he had ammunition in his backpack.) In my opinion, anyone who thinks it's just fine for parents to leave loaded guns or unloaded ones with ammunition accessible to young children is guilty of child endangerment. If not to their own child? Then to playmates.

I think it is so disingenuous for gun rights supporters to argue this point. Eleven-year-olds cannot be trusted to have access to loaded guns without adult supervision. Yes, "some" may be perfectly trustworthy. Their friends? Their even younger siblings? No, never.

In my opinion, a responsible gun owner would never leave a potentially loaded weapon where a child could lay hands on it. This particular boy? He is proof-of-the-pudding. Not only was he wrong-headed to think he could actually protect anyone with the gun, he threatened his classmates with it.

Had he loaded the gun? Had he killed a little kid? That dead kid's parents would own his parents' home, cars, money and anything else of value they had as "payment" for their dead kid and their failure to secure their weapons from a child.

I fail to see how anyone of sound mind can argue this point.

Are there 11-year-olds who can be trusted with loaded firearms all by themselves? Possibly. I cannot, however, imagine why on earth a responsible parent would ever take that chance. In this particular case? A child who takes a gun to school and points it, even in jest, at his classmates? Is NOT responsible.

Truly, this wrong-headed thinking is why people think bad thoughts about people who own guns. So, gun owners who think this way. Leave your guns and ammunition accessible to your 11-year-old. And then bury your son when he shows the gun to one of his friends, and his friend shoots him. Unconscionable.
 
Evenstar said:
What's needed is more education on gun safety and less time spent in front of the tv playing video games.
Click to expand...

I agree. We need to get out the TRUTH that guns don't make you safer they acutually increase you chance of being shot or committing suicide. And that leaving a gun out for anyone to take is a crime punished with stiff penalties and a permanent ban from ever owning a gun again. That is the education that is needed.
 
Evenstar said:
What's needed is more education on gun safety and less time spent in front of the tv playing video games.
Click to expand...

Gun safety training done with a video game?..
 
Had a neighbor once who kept his guns locked up, but not the bullets. Twice we found one of his boys with a box of rifle bullets, a pair of vice grips, and a hammer, trying to set them off. So dad locks up the bullets.....then the same boy got the compound bow out of the closet, and arrows, with broad-heads, aka razors at the end of the shaft, and he was shooting them over his house from the front yard, with other kids playing in the back yard. Not long after that, the kid was in a field behind his house doing something with another kid that looked suspicious. I went over to see what was up. He had poured gasoline from a milk jug onto a pile of grass, sticks, cardboard, etc. and was trying to make a spark with a fire starter kit to light it up. If he had succeeded, the vapors would have set both kids on fire. His mom was in full view of what he was doing, and ignoring him. He did succeed in starting a neighbors garage on fire at another time.
Kids like that require constant supervision, and he wasn't getting it from his parents. So the neighbors stepped up and we all watched him.
He survived to adulthood, and didn't end up in prison, or hospital, or hurt anyone. But the parents can't take much credit for that.....
 
iguanaman said:
I agree. We need to get out the TRUTH that guns don't make you safer they acutually increase you chance of being shot or committing suicide. And that leaving a gun out for anyone to take is a crime punished with stiff penalties and a permanent ban from ever owning a gun again. That is the education that is needed.
Click to expand...

I suppose then that you prefer letting the government protect you.
 
Evenstar said:
I suppose then that you prefer letting the government protect you.
Click to expand...

I prefer not to increase my chances of me or my family being shot like owning a gun does. I don't keep any live grenades around either.
 
iguanaman said:
I prefer not to increase my chances of me or my family being shot like owning a gun does. I don't keep any live grenades around either.
Click to expand...

Prove that the right to own guns is directly linked to higher crime and suicide rates. So by this logic, if guns were made illegal, crime and suicide rates would plummet.
 
Evenstar said:
What's needed is more education on gun safety and less time spent in front of the tv playing video games.
Click to expand...

Our children were deprived....when video games came out, I would not let them in our house. We had our kids involved in activities like baseball and softball, dance, scouts, camping and fishing with family, helping grandma and grandpa around their house, likewise with other elderly neighbors, etc.
They turned out to be college educated taxpayers.
Good thing the ACLU never found out....
 
Evenstar said:
Prove that the right to own guns is directly linked to higher crime and suicide rates. So by this logic, if guns were made illegal, crime and suicide rates would plummet.
Click to expand...

Suicide rates are higher is areas with long periods of gloomy weather....we should ban bad weather.
 
Evenstar said:
Prove that the right to own guns is directly linked to higher crime and suicide rates. So by this logic, if guns were made illegal, crime and suicide rates would plummet.
Click to expand...

You mean like in Australia where homicide rates are at all time lows?

homicides_australia_chart.jpg
 
UtahBill said:
Our children were deprived....when video games came out, I would not let them in our house. We had our kids involved in activities like baseball and softball, dance, scouts, camping and fishing with family, helping grandma and grandpa around their house, likewise with other elderly neighbors, etc.
They turned out to be college educated taxpayers.
Good thing the ACLU never found out....
Click to expand...

Damned near unAmerican.
 
justabubba said:
appears you choose to ignore reality
and that is your option to exercise

however, not for me
any 11/12 year old boy absolutely knows that weapons are something that cannot be taken to school
the only exception would be those who are of that pre-teen chronological age but with an intellect which does not match their years
so, if the kid arrived at school on a short bus, he gets a free pass
if not, book him dano
Click to expand...

You missed my point entirely
 
UtahBill said:
Suicide rates are higher is areas with long periods of gloomy weather....we should ban bad weather.
Click to expand...

Some important statistics to keep in mind:
A little over half of all suicides in the United States use firearms.
More than 90% of attempts with firearms are fatal, far outweighing the success rate of other methods (such as drug overdose or cutting, which are about 3% successful) (source).
Suicides account for over half of all shootings.
Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner. The majority of suicides are from an impulsive decision. Seventy percent of suicide attempters decide to kill themselves on an impulse - less than an hour before their attempt. The ready availability of guns makes for a deadly combination.
Ninety percent of people who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide.
[And this one is for the parents out there. Do you want your child dead? Keep a gun available.
75% of youth suicides by gun used a parent's firearm

http://newtrajectory.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-problem-of-guns-and-suicide.html"]
 
Last edited:
UtahBill said:
Gun safety training done with a video game?..
Click to expand...

How about gun safety in a violent video game. XD

It would have to hidden somehow to keep the fun factor, but I would laugh at the sight of it.
 
Henrin said:
How about gun safety in a violent video game. XD

It would have to hidden somehow to keep the fun factor, but I would laugh at the sight of it.
Click to expand...

If a safety rule is violated, the game player shuts off for 48 hours....crime and punishment in one swell foop....
 
iguanaman said:
I prefer not to increase my chances of me or my family being shot like owning a gun does. I don't keep any live grenades around either.
Click to expand...

Like I said earlier:

In the US 18% of burglaries happen when someone is home while in Europe where guns are banned 60% happen when someone is home. Do you want to know why it comes out that way? Here is a hint, being shot in the face sucks.
 
iguanaman said:
Some important statistics to keep in mind:
A little over half of all suicides in the United States use firearms.
More than 90% of attempts with firearms are fatal, far outweighing the success rate of other methods (such as drug overdose or cutting, which are about 3% successful) (source).
Suicides account for over half of all shootings.
Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner. The majority of suicides are from an impulsive decision. Seventy percent of suicide attempters decide to kill themselves on an impulse - less than an hour before their attempt. The ready availability of guns makes for a deadly combination.
Ninety percent of people who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide.
[And this one is for the parents out there. Do you want your child dead? Keep a gun available.
75% of youth suicides by gun used a parent's firearm

http://newtrajectory.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-problem-of-guns-and-suicide.html"]
Click to expand...

link not working for me, but I would want a source from government, not a blog....
from AFSP: facts and figures....
Studies indicate that the best way to prevent suicide is through the early recognition and treatment of depression and other psychiatric illnesses.
 
Last edited:
iguanaman said:
Some important statistics to keep in mind:
A little over half of all suicides in the United States use firearms.
More than 90% of attempts with firearms are fatal, far outweighing the success rate of other methods (such as drug overdose or cutting, which are about 3% successful) (source).
Suicides account for over half of all shootings.
Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner. The majority of suicides are from an impulsive decision. Seventy percent of suicide attempters decide to kill themselves on an impulse - less than an hour before their attempt. The ready availability of guns makes for a deadly combination.
Ninety percent of people who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide.
[And this one is for the parents out there. Do you want your child dead? Keep a gun available.
75% of youth suicides by gun used a parent's firearm

http://newtrajectory.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-problem-of-guns-and-suicide.html"]
Click to expand...

So basically the argument is that we should restrict the availability of guns so people can't as easily make a decision with their own life. Yeah, that argument is horrible. The argument of impulse suicide while interesting doesn't really change that you are making an argument meant to solely make them make a decision you want when its their life we are dealing with.
 
MaggieD said:
Why do you ask how he got it? If it isn't wrong, what difference does it make?
Click to expand...
Do you know how he got it?



MaggieD said:
In my opinion, a responsible gun owner would never leave a potentially loaded weapon where a child could lay hands on it.
Click to expand...
Exactly. In your opinion.
Well I know some 8 and 9 year olds that would find and retrieve that gun of yours no matter where you put it.

MaggieD said:
Not only was he wrong-headed to think he could actually protect anyone with the gun,
Click to expand...
His thinking was not wrongheaded.
It was noble.


When I made my initial reply, I didn't know that the gun wasn't loaded. (And now I see that, although the gun wasn't loaded, he had ammunition in his backpack.) In my opinion, anyone who thinks it's just fine for parents to leave loaded guns or unloaded ones with ammunition accessible to young children is guilty of child endangerment. If not to their own child? Then to playmates.

MaggieD said:
Eleven-year-olds cannot be trusted to have access to loaded guns without adult supervision. Yes, "some" may be perfectly trustworthy.
Click to expand...
Contradictory statements.

But yes, some 11 year olds can be. At one time they weren't the exception as they would be now.



MaggieD said:
Had he killed a little kid? That dead kid's parents would own his parents' home, cars, money and anything else of value they had as "payment" for their dead kid and their failure to secure their weapons from a child.

I fail to see how anyone of sound mind can argue this point.
Click to expand...
I fail to see anything of merit in your argument.

If a parent keeps a firearm in the nightstand by their bed and the kid violates the sanctity of their bedroom and obtains it. I could not in good conscience hold the parents responsible for the actions of the kid.
 
He has seen hundreds of thousnads of killings watching videos, movies and TV why be alarmed?
 
Excon said:
Do you know how he got it?




Exactly. In your opinion.
Well I know some 8 and 9 year olds that would find and retrieve that gun of yours no matter where you put it.

His thinking was not wrongheaded.
It was noble.


When I made my initial reply, I didn't know that the gun wasn't loaded. (And now I see that, although the gun wasn't loaded, he had ammunition in his backpack.) In my opinion, anyone who thinks it's just fine for parents to leave loaded guns or unloaded ones with ammunition accessible to young children is guilty of child endangerment. If not to their own child? Then to playmates.

Contradictory statements.

But yes, some 11 year olds can be. At one time they weren't the exception as they would be now.



I fail to see anything of merit in your argument.

If a parent keeps a firearm in the nightstand by their bed and the kid violates the sanctity of their bedroom and obtains it. I could not in good conscience hold the parents responsible for the actions of the kid.
Click to expand...

Sanctity of a bedroom? interesting idea.....
A gun should not be in a nightstand drawer...it should be hidden from easy view. We have 2 houses, split our year based on weather.
In one house, if I need the gun right now, I step out of bed and knock the nightstand over and there it is, attached to the underside of the nightstand with velcro. It can't be seen unless the nightstand is knocked over. In the other house, there is a bifold closet door within a few feet of my side of the bed. I can reach inside, above the door frame, and retrieve the gun. It can't be easily seen, either, as the closet is less than 2 feet deep.
 
Excon said:
Do you know how he got it?

Exactly. In your opinion.
Well I know some 8 and 9 year olds that would find and retrieve that gun of yours no matter where you put it.

His thinking was not wrongheaded.
It was noble.

When I made my initial reply, I didn't know that the gun wasn't loaded. (And now I see that, although the gun wasn't loaded, he had ammunition in his backpack.) In my opinion, anyone who thinks it's just fine for parents to leave loaded guns or unloaded ones with ammunition accessible to young children is guilty of child endangerment. If not to their own child? Then to playmates.

Contradictory statements.

But yes, some 11 year olds can be. At one time they weren't the exception as they would be now.

I fail to see anything of merit in your argument.

If a parent keeps a firearm in the nightstand by their bed and the kid violates the sanctity of their bedroom and obtains it. I could not in good conscience hold the parents responsible for the actions of the kid.
Click to expand...

Noble, really. Noble to threaten other children with it. I have to stop myself from being infracted here! :rofl

You and I will continue to disagree. I won't change your mind, but I have certainly cemented my own thinking. And, your position reminds me that some gun owners are completely out of touch with the reality that guns are dangerous weapons in the hands of children.

Edit: Oh! And my children are not allowed to play at your house. ;) ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom