Re: 'As a black person it's always racial': Django Unchained star Jamie Foxx explains
Caine said:
So... A black baby born into this world is already born resentful towards whites because of something that has happened in history that has not affected them? Even though they don't know the difference between races yet?
No, of course not. Why do you think that's what I've said?
Caine said:
Quit jabbering about "Oh Woes R DUH EFFEKZ UF DUH HIZTORY" and make SENSE!
1) I have not written the disquoted string of letters anywhere in my posts. I don't know what they mean.
2) I suspect I don't make sense to you because you aren't taking any time to reflect on the ideas presented.
Caine said:
What effects of history? At what point in a black person's life is it that they obtain awareness of their inherent resentment towards white people, which is an excusable trait?
I suspect it happens after a few instances of racist behavior get directed their way.
Caine said:
You are just repeating the same thing without making any effort to explain why history should matter to the 80s and 90s born black people who have had full and equal opportunity in the country since their birth. You just keep repeating.... "Oh Woez is duh history dat be holdin' da black menzzes down"
Again, I haven't written anything like the disquoted string of letters. I am repeating the same thing because you're not engaging the point. We should start with a general point about history: namely, that things which happen in the past matter to how the present is shaped. That seems like such a clear and obvious point, I don't know how it could possibly be simpler. Someone who doesn't believe
that is both foolish and foolhardy.
Once the general point is acknowledged (and I really don't see how anyone who was being reasonable could fail to do so), we can look at specific cases. In this specific case, the past history is so horrific and so weighty, it seems hard to understand how it could not continue to have effects today.
And again, we come full circle enough for me to ask... What reason does a 18 year old black male have to resent white people that he should be excused for his resentment?
Caine said:
Socioeconomic status is what matters. An upper class black kid is going to have the same opportunities as an upper class white kid.
Still untrue, and also irrelevant. See that hiring study I linked (if it was one of the ones that didn't work, I'll link it a different way. Alternately, you can just google "Implicit bias race hiring" or something like that, and you'll find plenty to keep you busy.
But anyway, there are proportionately more upper middle class white people than black people (i.e. a higher percentage of white people, out of the total population of white people, are upper middle class than the fraction of black people, out of the total population of black people).
Caine said:
BTW: Your links suck... half of them don't work
All of them work for me except two; I'm not sure what happened on those.
Caine said:
the others talk about "disease rates are higher for afric.." OF ****ING COURSE THEY ARE... WHITE PEOPLE CAN'T GET SICKLE CELL.
The studies linked adjust for that, looking at health outcomes over a range of diseases.
Caine said:
Sorry, I call bull****. "Social capital" is something an INDIVIDUAL builds.
If you're defining terms that way, OK: African Americans lack <insert whatever term you like here, that means the same as social capital except as acquired by communities>. Until you settle on the term you'd like to use, I'll just call it "X". Put X back into my original argument, and proceed from there.
Caine said:
You show up to a job interview dressed well, articulate, honest, and qualified for the job, and it doesn't matter if you are black or white.
Two points:
1) Yes, it still does matter. That's been demonstrated over and over.
2) Just as important: all of those are learned normative behaviors. When you have a population that never learns them, and doesn't even learn that they're supposed to learn them, I have a hard time blaming individuals in that population for not being more successful. It would be like throwing someone into a biology lab without any training, and expecting them to understand automated sampling protocols--if they weren't even aware there are such things, they couldn't very well be responsible for their lack of knowledge.
Caine said:
So I, who had nothing to do with slavery or discrimination........ I am supposed to ACCEPT having people of another race hateful and resentful and distrustful towards me for some **** I didn't do to them, who didn't experience it.... and you expect the racial "gap" to be bridged? GTFO.
Actually, no, I do not expect it to be bridged. I think slavery will turn out to be one of those things that, once you do it, it can never be undone.
But you may as well accept it; if you were actually in the shoes of most African Americans, I think you'd probably develop quite a resentment as well.
Caine said:
Until blacks can grow up and move on, it ain't going to happen. Im not kissing someone's ass because of some **** I didn't do, and I am sick of walking on eggshells. So call me a racist... cause I didn't have **** to do with it.
I don't know if you're a racist or not. But you seem not to grasp the notion of cause and effect, which is rather strange.
Caine said:
And yet that is an alternate reality to the one being faced by blacks born in the current generation of mid 20s and early 30 year olds.......... Nobody is paying **** back. Last time I checked, my black friends don't have a ****ing check they have to send off to the "Cracker Slave Massa" that sets them back every month. So your analogy can suck a nut.
Well, you have to apply the principle of analogy evenly. Just as the situation is a proxy for reality, each individual element is a proxy for an element of reality. I was not claiming that African Americans write actual checks to white Americans; the checks in the analogy are a proxy for the continuing unfair effects that slavery and Jim Crow have produced.
Caine said:
You see.... Apparently you think you are talking to just another privileged northern hand flopping white dude whose parents had plenty of "opportunity" to pass on to them.
No, I grew up moving from one "trailer" to the next...
I made no assumptions about who you are. I'm not sure why I should; arguments are what they are, regardless of who argues them. I play the board, not the man.
Caine said:
So you see..... Claiming I had some kind of special leg up in life because I am white is just ****ing stupid.
Indeed. But I have not made that claim. I would acknowledge that it would be possible to get that idea from the analogy about the court decision. But that was not my intent.
Caine said:
Any poor black person who stayed out of trouble (that is THEIR responsibility to do, regardless of where they life) and stayed in school (THEIR RESPONSIBILITY) could have done the same thing.
Again, probably false. Are police departments across the country hiring that many people?
Caine said:
If someone lacked the ability to make good decisions, they can't blame that **** on their race.... because I know plenty of broke ass crackers in North Carolina who made ****ty decisions too.
Depending on what you mean by this, you're committing one of two serious fallacies. You're either affirming the consequent, or begging the question. If you elaborate on what you mean, I'll tell you which.