State to Eliminate “Bride” & “Groom” on Marriage Certificates [W:303]

sawyerloggingon said:

The decay of a society leads to the eventual sacking of the country. China may well be our version of the Visigoths.

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The Fall of Rome due to sexual acts has it's source in Victorian England. As Protestant England asserted it's Empire on the world it had to sanctify it's acts and Divine Blessing was the reason and fig leaf for the exploitation of decadent or 'inferior' societies. It also showed Gawd loved Her Protestants over those Catholics.

The 'decay' often cited in the Great Fall had existed since earliest times. Every society has had the perversions pious folks cluck about. Elite Military units were paired gay lovers. Child sex partners didn't start after Rome grew to an Empire but existed way before Romulus and Remus were suckled by a wolf.

Victorian England was all hot for anything Egyptian at the same time, mainly because they could loot the pyramids at will and anything of value was being sent back to Merry Old England. But the Pharaohs had reached the height of their powers after generations of linear incest. That seemed to go un-noticed in sexually repressed Victorian England.

Society is more than sex. What caused the collapse of Rome was a so extreme a concentration of wealth and power in the hands of fewer and fewer citizens that the vast populace quit caring to die for the Honor and Glory of Rome. When so many were reduced to slavery pride in the nation suffered. Why would slaves, serfs and indentured folks fight for the few wealthy overlords?

Societies decay, but not from sexual permissiveness but when all hope dies for the majority of folks living in it... eace

Optimal solution...

Future Divorcee #1
Future Divorcee #2

American said:

No, we'll just introduce Person A Sally and her lovely Person B Danielle.

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American said:

Next we'll have to remove the word "man" from the English language.

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Sorry, those statements are so slippery, I fell.

notquiteright said:

The Fall of Rome due to sexual acts has it's source in Victorian England. As Protestant England asserted it's Empire on the world it had to sanctify it's acts and Divine Blessing was the reason and fig leaf for the exploitation of decadent or 'inferior' societies. It also showed Gawd loved Her Protestants over those Catholics.

The 'decay' often cited in the Great Fall had existed since earliest times. Every society has had the perversions pious folks cluck about. Elite Military units were paired gay lovers. Child sex partners didn't start after Rome grew to an Empire but existed way before Romulus and Remus were suckled by a wolf.

Victorian England was all hot for anything Egyptian at the same time, mainly because they could loot the pyramids at will and anything of value was being sent back to Merry Old England. But the Pharaohs had reached the height of their powers after generations of linear incest. That seemed to go un-noticed in sexually repressed Victorian England.

Society is more than sex. What caused the collapse of Rome was a so extreme a concentration of wealth and power in the hands of fewer and fewer citizens that the vast populace quit caring to die for the Honor and Glory of Rome. When so many were reduced to slavery pride in the nation suffered. Why would slaves, serfs and indentured folks fight for the few wealthy overlords?

Societies decay, but not from sexual permissiveness but when all hope dies for the majority of folks living in it... eace

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Society's decay is the operative term here and maybe I have not made myself clear which is my own fault. I am not blaming sexual permissiveness in and of itself for the fall of Rome or the decline of America. Rome became weak as it's people became more interested in pursuing their own pleasures than in keeping Rome strong and I see that happening to America now with so many feeling "entitled" to so much. There is even talk of giving illegals citizenship if they serve in our army. That exact sort of thing was done in Rome as part of their decline. Having slaves or illegals go to war so your pampered entitled ass can sit home and play with little boys or prostitutes or whatever sexual perversion you lust is a sign of the end coming.

sawyerloggingon said:

Society's decay is the operative term here and maybe I have not made myself clear which is my own fault. I am not blaming sexual permissiveness in and of itself for the fall of Rome or the decline of America. Rome became weak as it's people became more interested in pursuing their own pleasures than in keeping Rome strong and I see that happening to America now with so many feeling "entitled" to so much. There is even talk of giving illegals citizenship if they serve in our army. That exact sort of thing was done in Rome as part of their decline. Having slaves or illegals go to war so your pampered entitled ass can sit home and play with little boys or prostitutes or whatever sexual perversion you lust is a sign of the end coming.

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Christianity as a contributor to the fall and to stability
"As the happiness of a future life is the great object of religion, we may hear without surprise or scandal that the introduction, or at least the abuse of Christianity, had some influence on the decline and fall of the Roman empire. The clergy successfully preached the doctrines of patience and pusillanimity; the active virtues of society were discouraged; and the last remains of military spirit were buried in the cloister: a large portion of public and private wealth was consecrated to the specious demands of charity and devotion; and the soldiers' pay was lavished on the useless multitudes of both sexes who could only plead the merits of abstinence and chastity. Faith, zeal, curiosity, and more earthly passions of malice and ambition, kindled the flame of theological discord; the church, and even the state, were distracted by religious factions, whose conflicts were sometimes bloody and always implacable; the attention of the emperors was diverted from camps to synods; the Roman world was oppressed by a new species of tyranny; and the persecuted sects became the secret enemies of their country. Yet party-spirit, however pernicious or absurd, is a principle of union as well as of dissension. The bishops, from eighteen hundred pulpits, inculcated the duty of passive obedience to a lawful and orthodox sovereign; their frequent assemblies and perpetual correspondence maintained the communion of distant churches; and the benevolent temper of the Gospel was strengthened, though confirmed, by the spiritual alliance of the Catholics. The sacred indolence of the monks was devoutly embraced by a servile and effeminate age; but if superstition had not afforded a decent retreat, the same vices would have tempted the unworthy Romans to desert, from baser motives, the standard of the republic. Religious precepts are easily obeyed which indulge and sanctify the natural inclinations of their votaries; but the pure and genuine influence of Christianity may be traced in its beneficial, though imperfect, effects on the barbarian proselytes of the North. If the decline of the Roman empire was hastened by the conversion of Constantine, his victorious religion broke the violence of the fall, and mollified the ferocious temper of the conquerors." (chap. 39).

The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

sawyerloggingon said:

The collapse of the Roman Empire was a very long event. Christianity was definitely the last nail in the coffin. It signaled the end of the decadence that had engulfed Rome but I would submit it was the decadence itself that brought the civilization down.

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Oooookay. If that is what you want to believe then that will be the case. For those of us who actually care about history, we will stick to the facts, not the fairy tales contrived by people who have a political agenda to demonize groups of people who they are personally biased against. I hope you teach your version of history to your children so that that when they show up to a real history class, everyone can get in some good laughs when they share their less than substantiated point of view.

I have no problem with them doing this, it seems necessary if they're going to start allowing gay marriage. It's not like anyone expects people to stop using "husband and wife" in the ceremony or in daily life, it's just on the marriage certificate.

Although I'm not quite sure why they couldn't just have both, and people can use whichever one they want.

molten_dragon said:

I have no problem with them doing this, it seems necessary if they're going to start allowing gay marriage. It's not like anyone expects people to stop using "husband and wife" in the ceremony or in daily life, it's just on the marriage certificate.

Although I'm not quite sure why they couldn't just have both, and people can use whichever one they want.

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They have changed their minds since the OP & are now offering alternatives to suit everyone.

sawyerloggingon said:

Society's decay is the operative term here and maybe I have not made myself clear which is my own fault. I am not blaming sexual permissiveness in and of itself for the fall of Rome or the decline of America. Rome became weak as it's people became more interested in pursuing their own pleasures than in keeping Rome strong and I see that happening to America now with so many feeling "entitled" to so much. There is even talk of giving illegals citizenship if they serve in our army. That exact sort of thing was done in Rome as part of their decline. Having slaves or illegals go to war so your pampered entitled ass can sit home and play with little boys or prostitutes or whatever sexual perversion you lust is a sign of the end coming.

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Soooo in a thread about how to print up marriage certificates you inject off topic opinion?

I think you miss a great deal of the point of your own off topic opinion. Hitler made the poor judgement call that all US Citizens were good for is jazz and razor blades, that we were too interested in decadence and pleasure to risk life and limb for others.

Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness

It is part of our credo.

Now what has been the constant thread through 'decayed' societies has not been the chasing of boy ho's but rather the wealthy feeling little need to support the nation due to multigenerational wealth and the sense of entitlement it fosters. I'd say our nation's diversion is money, the piling of unfathomable amounts of wealth, even if it is just numbers on a stock screen, rather than gold in a vault and a boy on his knees.

The other side of the entitled wealthy over class is the growing discontent of those not born wealthy those steadily lose ground in a society rigged against them. Once the masses feel no sense of service for a 'nation' that pampers the wealthy and cares little if anything for those who have been left behind.

The privileged Elite have ALWAYS been able to indulge their sexual leanings, 1 to 5% of a nation boinking boys doesn't decay a society. England at the height of it's Empire had quite a few odd ducks with noble titles...

Middle Class gay folks wishing to get married and not using bride and groom, or man and wife isn't decay. It's progress.

like ending slavery or a woman's right to vote.

ecofarm said:

Too late. You are person A. and person B. Deal with it.

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Really, this is easy,

One each line of the forum do this

Circle one:
spouse / wife / husband / elephant / whatever

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After having read at least a dozen books about Rome and the fall of the Roman Empire I can't hep but see similarities in America today. You can post all the quotes from Wikipedia or wherever you want but to me that proves you have no mind of your own.

sawyerloggingon said:

After having read at least a dozen books about Rome and the fall of the Roman Empire I can't hep but see similarities in America today. You can post all the quotes from Wikipedia or wherever you want but to me that proves you have no mind of your own.

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lol we're collapsing because people want to change spouse titles on legal documents?

Yeah I remember when that happened back during the 4th century.

I just can't understand why they can't make some small adjustments instead of changing the whole wording.

So, are people going to get on one knee and ask "will you be my Person B?" This is just stupid, keep it as husband and wife, husband and husband or wife and wife.

sawyerloggingon said:

This is the kind of stuff that predicated the fall of the Roman empire. Watch for the legalization of having sex with children next.

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Yeah because homosexual relations caused the infighting and bad governance as well as corruption within the military that brought down Rome. And homosexual relations were what cause an empire dependent upon the riches of conquest to grow to finally run out of new areas to conquer. Yeah, gays. Gays caused all of that, :roll:

American said:

Next we'll have to remove the word "man" from the English language.

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LOL! What?

sawyerloggingon said:

After having read at least a dozen books about Rome and the fall of the Roman Empire I can't hep but see similarities in America today. You can post all the quotes from Wikipedia or wherever you want but to me that proves you have no mind of your own.

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Articles on WND don't count as books.

Rome fell for a variety of reasons, none of which have anything to do with homosexuality.

And Sparta was one of the major Greek powers for hundreds of years and openly practiced homosexuality. It was 300 Spartans supported by a few hundred other Greeks who stopped the massive Persian war machine for days.

And let's ignore that Athens, essentially the birth place of the Western World had homosexual relations as the norm.

Rome fell for reasons entirely unrelated to homosexuality.

The belief that gays predicated the demise of Rome shtick is a fan favorite among students of the David Barton doctrine and other quacks of the sort. Revisionism on an unprecedented scale.

sawyerloggingon said:

Rome became weak as it's people became more interested in pursuing their own pleasures than in keeping Rome strong and I see that happening to America now with so many feeling "entitled" to so much.

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Then you should be far more worried about manwhores and sluts then, rather then homosexuals. Not to mention corporate heads who feel they answer to no one.

There is even talk of giving illegals citizenship if they serve in our army. That exact sort of thing was done in Rome as part of their decline.

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Roman Auxiliaries existed hundreds of years before the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

Having slaves or illegals go to war so your pampered entitled ass can sit home and play with little boys or prostitutes or whatever sexual perversion you lust is a sign of the end coming.

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Auxiliaries were mostly volunteers serving twenty years in exchange for citizenship. Furthermore, auxiliaries fought along side the legionnaires. You are incorrectly casting that the Roman Army was built up of slaves when it was not. Auxiliaries were hardly illegals as well. Auxiliaries came from non-citizen conquered peoples who were given a chance at citizenship. That ain't illegals.

What "books" are you reading to get your information?

obvious Child said:

Articles on WND don't count as books.

Rome fell for a variety of reasons, none of which have anything to do with homosexuality.

And Sparta was one of the major Greek powers for hundreds of years and openly practiced homosexuality. It was 300 Spartans supported by a few hundred other Greeks who stopped the massive Persian war machine for days.

And let's ignore that Athens, essentially the birth place of the Western World had homosexual relations as the norm.

Rome fell for reasons entirely unrelated to homosexuality.

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Attempting to educated the WND reader is never easy. But the truth is clearly on your side. And their inability to see that does not make it any less true.

Until these sheep quit following the corporate religions and the rich are going to get it all politicians, they will remain a disgrace to our nation. IMHO.

The fall of empires
Hurricanes
One of The Teletubbies

Who knows what horrors the gays will unleash on the world next?

digsbe said:

So, are people going to get on one knee and ask "will you be my Person B?" This is just stupid, keep it as husband and wife, husband and husband or wife and wife.

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No, that is not what is going to happen. Before change the two people where referred to on government documents as bride or groom, one each per marriage. That would no longer be accurate and so the forms had to change.

digsbe said:

So, are people going to get on one knee and ask "will you be my Person B?"

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Sure, just like how anyone who ever does their taxes announces proudly "It's a male/female dependent!" after their wife gives birth. :roll:

It would appear that those who oppose gay marriage DEMAND that in states the legalize gay marriage men are called "brides" and women are called "grooms" for gay marriages.

Thus, those who oppose gay marriage DEMAND that the words "bride" and "groom" become gender neutral. Surprising they want gay men to have the word "bride" and gay women to have the word "groom" by formal government edict. I would think they would oppose that.