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Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court

This is completely anecdotal, but in my hometown the city allowed other faiths to put up holiday displays alongside the christian nativity. Within the first week of the Wiccan pentagram being put up, local christian vandals ripped it down with a chain and pickup truck in the middle of the night. Then they complained that other religions wanted a war on Christmas. To me it seems very opposite, that the war is really a fight for exclusivity of christian religious displays on public property. If a municipality is going to selectively allow only certain religions to display their religious symbols on public property, then they shouldn't allow any.

And those pulling down a pentagram are in the wrong as well. Vandalism of someone else's stuff is wrong, regardless of their reasons.

That said...again...public land set aside for the public to use for celebration winter based holiday's should be used for that. If you want to celebrate hanukkah, kwanzaa, the winter solstice, or anything else instead of Christmas....no problem. Get your space and put up whatever thing you want. More power to you, and to hell with those bitching about it.

What I DO have issue with is people who specifically attempt to grab said spots and then go out of their way to specifically put up displays that have NOTHING to do with the celebration of a winter holiday and are meant to do nothing but essentially purposefully troll those who are coming to the location specifically to look at holiday decorations. If you want to be a jackass and try to protest "christian exclusivity of religious displays" then be my guess, it's your right. It's also my right to think by doing so you're being a thick headed jackass that is doing more harm to your cause then good and are actually the individual being the most selfish and egotistical in the situation because you're purposefully going out of your way to bother or hamper the holiday activities of the vast majority of the public that DOESN'T give two ****s about either side's pissing match over religion and just wants to ****ing see some lights and pretty displays.
 
You can pretend like all of them said Happy Solstice or joy and peace but it's just not truthful. It's the ones that were there solely as an anti-religious message that I have a problem with.

Let's be concrete. SHOW me the ACTUAL signs you object to.

I'm about 99% positive that they'd only be considered inappropriate IF you're privileging religious content over everything else.
 
don't forget others with non-xian beliefs are also paying taxes for that public park. In other parts of the country where towns tried the balanced approach, some folks simply couldn't deal with it.

Here are a couple more of those infamous Atheist signs from the park in Santa Monica

View attachment 67138318

View attachment 67138319


Yep - really hateful stuff :roll:

No issue with either of those displays, and they're right in line with the type of thing I said I'd have no issues with because they're actually attempting to utilize the area for the purpose it's been designated for....aka holiday celebrations.

Those who vandalized them are adolescent buffoons who should be ashamed of themselves.
 
So here is an image of the atheists diorama:

View attachment 67138308

I have no problem with it. They are just expressing their opinion like the Christians are.

And this is one I would have an issue with in terms of being put up as part of an area being used for holiday celebrations.

This is nothing but an attempt to troll in real life. It's not celebrating any holiday, it' would sticking with the purpose of the land being open to public displays, it's about a group arrogantly and in an assholish way attempting to annoy and thumb their nose at those who are coming to the location in hopes of seeing things related to it's intended purpose (IE holiday decorations.

"See Jimmy, that's a menorah. That's part of what the Jewish faith uses to celebrate Hanukkah. And see that decorative mat with various things on it? That's a symbol of Kwanzaa celebrating African American culture. And there's a manger, depicting the birth of Jesus Christ which Christians celebrate on Christmas. Oh, and there's a banner from athiests telling you that Santa and Jesus are like the Devil and aren't real. Oh, and there's Frosty and rudolph!"
 
It's not your place or mine to judge good or bad timing. Logically speaking, it makes perfect sense for someone who'd like people to examine their belief systems to set up such a display at the same time and place as an obvious symbol of such beliefs.

I absolutely have the right to judge if it was good timing or not, that's my prerogative.

The whole "season" and "holiday" crap is completely irrelevant. The nativity display (or ANY holiday display, for that matter) isn't owed any kind of special deference.

It is the whole basis of the display so how can it be irrelevant. The city has been giving out these passes for 60 years just so holiday displays can be put up. Seems pretty relevant to me.

They did no such thing. Since their display was NOT a message of intolerance in the first place, this is complete bull**** on your part.

Taking over a Christian nativity display just to spread your anti-religious message is not being tolerant of the other religion.

Once AGAIN: calling upon people to examine their beliefs is not intolerance, or attack, or an infringement in any way upon them.

There is a time and a place for everything.

It's not your place to decide or judge their message or their intent in terms of it's alleged or imagined relationship to the nativity scene, because NONE of the parties involved owe any kind of special kid-glove treatment or deference in the first place.

I have every right to judge. They put themselves out there in the public. By doing that, they allow themselves and their message to be judged by the public (i.e. me)

Unless you subscribe (as you seem to) to some variation of the principle that religious displays and beliefs deserve special exemptions and protections with regards to speech, then the nativity display is no more (and no less) deserving of the protections and requirements demanded of any other publicly displayed content, whether it be a calmly reasoned but passionate opinion essay, an ad for the local plumber, a YouTube video of kittens doing something cute, or a random piece of abstract art.

I don't, I subscribe to not being a dick and ruining a special 60 year holiday tradition.

In simplest terms: the nativity display is NOT special.

Tell that to the people who have visited that nativity display for the last 60 years.
 
I absolutely have the right to judge if it was good timing or not, that's my prerogative.



It is the whole basis of the display so how can it be irrelevant. The city has been giving out these passes for 60 years just so holiday displays can be put up. Seems pretty relevant to me.



Taking over a Christian nativity display just to spread your anti-religious message is not being tolerant of the other religion.



There is a time and a place for everything.



I have every right to judge. They put themselves out there in the public. By doing that, they allow themselves and their message to be judged by the public (i.e. me)



I don't, I subscribe to not being a dick and ruining a special 60 year holiday tradition.



Tell that to the people who have visited that nativity display for the last 60 years.
you have confused 'tolerating' with 'accepting'
 
And this is one I would have an issue with in terms of being put up as part of an area being used for holiday celebrations.

This is nothing but an attempt to troll in real life. It's not celebrating any holiday, it' would sticking with the purpose of the land being open to public displays, it's about a group arrogantly and in an assholish way attempting to annoy and thumb their nose at those who are coming to the location in hopes of seeing things related to it's intended purpose (IE holiday decorations.

"See Jimmy, that's a menorah. That's part of what the Jewish faith uses to celebrate Hanukkah. And see that decorative mat with various things on it? That's a symbol of Kwanzaa celebrating African American culture. And there's a manger, depicting the birth of Jesus Christ which Christians celebrate on Christmas. Oh, and there's a banner from athiests telling you that Santa and Jesus are like the Devil and aren't real. Oh, and there's Frosty and rudolph!"

This. Exactly.
 
you have confused 'tolerating' with 'accepting'

tol·er·ance
noun
1.
a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

Would you call a sign that declares the Christian belief system a myth as a fair or objective attitude?
 
tol·er·ance
noun
1.
a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

Would you call a sign that declares the Christian belief system a myth as a fair or objective attitude?


yes

what did i win?
 
True...but they have neither the need nor the obligation to REFRAIN from doing so, and those who ARE religious are NOT owed any special deference or insulation from critique.

It doesn't matter if the nativity had been on display for 6 years or 6 minutes or 6 centuries. It doesn't matter if little kids were involved or not. All that nonsense is completely irrelevant.



It MAY, but (just as with the other hysterical speculations), it may simply be a matter of relevance. The use of the PUBLIC SPACE to host a nativity scene is no better or worse than using it to pose a question or challenge about the beliefs related to that scene.



I don't see anyone arguing that it was illegal, so that too is irrelevant.

As for him being an asshole...what on earth is your basis for that assessment, if not your privileging of the religious folks who put up the nativity scene?

For example, if there was an atheist display put up first, and then some religious folks put up a nativity scene afterwards, would the folks who set up the nativity scene suddenly become the assholes?

The nativity scene isn't owed any special deference or veneration. The atheist display was quite mild. Folks in the U.S. often seem to have this completely unwarranted notion that no longer tiptoeing around religious displays is tantamount to aggressively mocking them or going out of one's way to provoke hostility.

If the atheist display was something genuinely obnoxious (like a sign saying "Mary was a whore! HAHAHAHA!"), then...MAYBE I could see calling him an asshole. But simply putting up a display inviting people to examine their views...how is that in any way ass-hole-ish?

Traditions are an important part of human life and social interactions especially on the familial level but also within communities. The length of the tradition is also highly significant if something has been passed down from generation to generation it's going to hold a higher emotional value and just overall importance for the people celebrating it.

No one here is saying that it's wrong for someone to express their views or that it is illegal also important here since the original post contained an article involving legal claims in federal court, which is why I mentioned it.

It's not a stretch of any kind to conclude that what Vix did was in fact a dick move. There are many days out of the year and many parks that he could have chosen from in order to place anti-religious signs in (it doesn't matter how offensive they were he didn't have to call Mary a whore in order to be an asshole). What he did was pick the time of the year when he knew Christians would be celebrating their traditions and the place where they went with their families to celebrate it. That's what makes him an asshole.

It's kind of pathetic actually.
 
No issue with either of those displays, and they're right in line with the type of thing I said I'd have no issues with because they're actually attempting to utilize the area for the purpose it's been designated for....aka holiday celebrations.

Those who vandalized them are adolescent buffoons who should be ashamed of themselves.

Another sane voice in the thread.

This isn't about rights. No one is questioning anyones rights.

It is about common sense. A 60 year tradition where families can walk through the park and enjoy various Christmas or Seasonal displays.
..

Wait - Wait, there is a display that goes against my atheist principles. I know. I will call my buddies. Next year we will get as many spots as we can and we will put our own messages up. We have rights. No one can stop us. Plus we will make all the newspapers. This War on Christmas stuff always gets good press.

I think in this instance the term 'dick' that was used as a descriptive, was apropos
 
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you have confused 'tolerating' with 'accepting'

In this context it seems these definitions best suit each word:

Tolerate: to allow the existence, presence, practice, or act of without prohibition or hindrance; permit.

Accept: to accommodate or reconcile oneself to

Attempting to hinder, by putting up non-topical, if not directly adversarial displays, or prohibit, by attempting to get a specific display banned/entire celebration banned, the presence or practice of utilizing public ground to celebrate the holiday seasons is by definition not showing "tolerance".

(note...neither is vandalizing displays of others, especially those that are being tolerant and acting in accordance to the activities theme)

Now, you can say that "just because it's not tolerant doesn't mean it's wrong" or you could say "Its something that SHOULDN'T be tolerated" and those would be legitimate arguments....but it's hard to suggest that if you're doing something similar to what I stated above that one is being "tolerant", let alone "accepting".
 
Another sane voice in the thread.

This isn't about rights. No one is questioning anyones rights.

It is about common sense. A 60 year tradition where families can walk through the park and enjoy various Christmas or Seasonal displays.
..

Wait - Wait, there is a display that goes against my atheist principles. I know. I will call my buddies. Next year we will get as many spots as we can and we will put our own messages up. We have rights. No one can stop us. Plus we will make all the papers. This War on Christmas stuff always gets good press.

I think in this instance the term 'dick' that was used as a descriptive was apropos

That's been my message every year.

I don't give a **** about a so called "war on christmas". I don't care if I don't see one nativity all christmas season long. I don't care if a store wants to tell me "happy holidays" or if they want to tell my "merry christmas" or if they want to say "Happy 'we're going to take your money' time of the year!"

I don't care about a war on christmas. But I'm all for a "war on people being dicks". Or a war on "people so stuck up their own asses that that they can't exercise some common ****ing courtesy". I'm all for that war.
 
Atheist Action Halts Calif. Nativity Display; Churches Go to Court



Just so I get this right, these churches are suing the government claiming their rights to freedom of speech were violated because the government wouldn't provide them a soapbox and place in the park?

Found this gem lower down...



So the city ended the practice because the religulous were vandalizing the other displays.
The true hateful nature of Atheism shows it's ugly head again.
 
Another sane voice in the thread.

This isn't about rights. No one is questioning anyones rights.

It is about common sense. A 60 year tradition where families can walk through the park and enjoy various Christmas or Seasonal displays.
..

Wait - Wait, there is a display that goes against my atheist principles. I know. I will call my buddies. Next year we will get as many spots as we can and we will put our own messages up. We have rights. No one can stop us. Plus we will make all the newspapers. This War on Christmas stuff always gets good press.

I think in this instance the term 'dick' that was used as a descriptive, was apropos
actually, you are wrong
read the thread title again
 
tol·er·ance
noun
1.
a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

Would you call a sign that declares the Christian belief system a myth as a fair or objective attitude?

I know it wasn't addressed to me, but my general thought...

Arguably, in a general sense, sure.

Placing it up in the midst of an area supposedly being used for "holiday" decorations and displays...no, not at all.

No more than I'd find a "Holiday Display" that was nothing but a depiction of Atheists burning in hell to be "tolerant" or appropriate for a holiday celebration decoration.
 
Actually, that's not pretense. NEITHER of us knows their intent...but that's a moot point because their intent doesn't @#$@#%@ matter.

Actually intent does matter. Even in a court of law. In libel cases it is the difference between a successful case or a case that is lost. And in murder cases it is the difference between manslaughter and murder one.
 
Actually intent does matter. Even in a court of law. In libel cases it is the difference between a successful case or a case that is lost. And in murder cases it is the difference between manslaughter and murder one.

ok, tell us how intent matters within this thread
 
I absolutely have the right to judge if it was good timing or not, that's my prerogative.

It's your (and my, and anyone's) prerogative and ability to judge, but that doesn't mean we're owed anything according to that judgment.

It is the whole basis of the display so how can it be irrelevant.

The atheist display reflected what that atheist wanted to express during that holiday time. He is not obligated legally OR ethically to tiptoe around your completely arbitrary implication that religious messages have more of a right to that public space.

The city has been giving out these passes for 60 years just so holiday displays can be put up. Seems pretty relevant to me.

The atheist message is no more or less appropriate for a holiday display than anything else, including an ad for the local plumber, random art, or a birdfeeder.

This seems to be the sticking point...ONE of the following must be true of your position:

Either:
a) you maintain -- without explanation or warrant -- that the obviously religious nativity scene has some kind of special and superior claim to the use of public real estate for the holiday displays, such that it must be given special insulation from any contrary viewpoints or expression (which would run afoul of the separation doctrine);

or

b) you DON'T endorse special protection, in which case ANYONE else with ANY message (short of fighting words/open calls to break the law) must, by logical consistency, be afforded the same opportunity for using the display space.

Taking over a Christian nativity display

Once AGAIN, stop with the hysterical bull****. There has been no evidence of any such takeover. If I sit next to someone on the bus or the subway, and keep my elbows in, I have not taken over THEIR seat.

just to spread your anti-religious message is not being tolerant of the other religion.

On this point you are flat out wrong. Intolerance would be attempting to stop a religious symbol or message from even having a space at all. Ironically, it is YOUR position which is turning out to be intolerant. If we did it by your preference, the atheist display shouldn't be granted fair and equal opportunity for exposure (or at the very least, should be irrationally regarded as inappropriate or provocative despite its very mild content).

There is a time and a place for everything.

See above. Either you play fair -- without any special protection for religious messages and symbols -- or you are actually in favor of special exemptions and protections for religious expression.

I have every right to judge. They put themselves out there in the public. By doing that, they allow themselves and their message to be judged by the public (i.e. me)

No one is contesting the right to judge. The point is the glaring hypocrisy. You object to a very mild, tame, indirect critique of a religious symbol, but then you insist that the critique itself (the atheist display) must be open to judgement.

I don't, I subscribe to not being a dick and ruining a special 60 year holiday tradition.

You keep repeating, over and over, the contention that the atheist display somehow constitutes "being a dick", and yet thus far you haven't made so much as a gesture towards explaining what appears to be a massive double standard.

Tell that to the people who have visited that nativity display for the last 60 years.

REALITY CHECK: The atheists who set up their display did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop people from visiting the nativity display.

Do you realize that? NOTHING.

Your posts are becoming hysterical (not as in funny, but as in responding based upon raw emotion instead of facts).
 
Let me be more explicit the - no one is questioning the atheists rights

then why was this question taken before the courts (only to lose)
 
tol·er·ance
noun
1.
a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

Would you call a sign that declares the Christian belief system a myth as a fair or objective attitude?

YES.

Also, once again...it wouldn't even matter, because it would be a flagrant violation of the separation doctrine to give religious narratives (of any stripe) SPECIAL or superior precedence to use of the display areas. "Holiday" in the CIVIC sense must necessarily display no special deference to any religious doctrine.
 
There's no such thing as a right -- legally or ethically -- to insulation from contrary views.
 
then why was this question taken before the courts (only to lose)

Ahh, it seems you need to refer to the OP

never mind, I will quote from it

"The committee, comprising churches that are behind the nativity display, is suing in federal court, claiming the city violated their freedom of speech by stopping the holiday tradition"

No one is suing over the atheists right to put up their own displays.
 
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