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The bullies win again[W710; 739]

Medusa said:
she was suffering from anxiety......moreover she was child....

do you know something about anxiety??
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As has been pointed out from the beginning that apparently started this entire thing and I will say again, she is responsible for the act of killing herself. She is responsible for her suicide. No one else pulled the trigger and no one else chose the action. That was all on her. She was unstable, probably very mentally ill, and it was only made worse by the things done to her. That is it. CC wants to say that she isn't to blame for it though is responsible for it, but if you ask me that is just really missing the point of what responsibility means. It basically taking the first part and not really wanting to notice the second part, but whatever, it's really not that important.

Anyway, like it or not anxiety doesn't really lift responsibility of the decision or the action away from her. Though I understand why people might think such a thing.
 
Andalublue said:
Medusa, I see exactly what you're saying, but I think you are misunderstanding Caine's point. He is talking about it being her 'responsibility', not about her being 'to blame'. Those are two different things. Jerry and the others, whose names I've happily forgotten, were 'blaming' her for what happened. Caine's is not doing that and his comments cannot be compared to that objectionable line of argument.
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i see it..but we are talking about a child who had struggled both with anxiety and other bullies.and anxiety is an illness that can lead you to want to die.
 
Henrin said:
As has been pointed out from the beginning that apparently started this entire thing and will say again, she is responsible for the act of killing herself. She is responsible for her suicide. No one else pulled the trigger and no one else chose the action. That was all on her. She was unstable, probably very mentally ill, and it was only made worse by the things done to her. That is it. CC wants to say that she isn't to blame for it though is responsible for it, but if you ask me that is just really missing the point of what responsibility means. It basically taking the first part and not really wanting to notice the second part, but whatever, it's really not that important.

Anyway, like it or not anxiety doesn't really lift responsibility of the decision or the action away from her. Though I understand why people might think such a thing.
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No.

A policeman who shoots an armed perp who is threatening others is responsible for the death of the perp, but s/he is not (necessarily) to blame for it.
 
Medusa said:
i see it..but we are talking about a child who had struggled both with anxiety and other bullies.and anxiety is an illness that can lead you to want to die.
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Yes, of course, but actually killing yourself, because of that illness is your responsibility, even though you are not to blame for that illness. See the difference?
 
Andalublue said:
No.

A policeman who shoots an armed perp who is threatening others is responsible for the death of the perp, but s/he is not (necessarily) to blame for it.
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No, that is still the same. They shot the individual in question that was threating others and is responsible and to blame for it. If it is justified or punishable is another matter all together.
 
Henrin said:
As has been pointed out from the beginning that apparently started this entire thing and I will say again, she is responsible for the act of killing herself. She is responsible for her suicide. No one else pulled the trigger and no one else chose the action. That was all on her. She was unstable, probably very mentally ill, and it was only made worse by the things done to her. That is it. CC wants to say that she isn't to blame for it though is responsible for it, but if you ask me that is just really missing the point of what responsibility means. It basically taking the first part and not really wanting to notice the second part, but whatever, it's really not that important.

Anyway, like it or not anxiety doesn't really lift responsibility of the decision or the action away from her. Though I understand why people might think such a thing.
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you dont have to have such a disorder to see what kind of results it can lead..anybody may want to kill himself...
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Medusa... Anda's right. Read my post explaining the difference between blame and responsibility. Caine was placing responsibility on her... which is accurate.... not blame, which would not be.
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ok i will read
 
Aderleth said:
I'm not sure that's really an issue, as such (or at least not an issue that's particularly relevant to either of the points that I've made). Yes, obviously, parental involvement is a good thing. Avoiding peer pressure is a good thing. Those are relevant concerns, but have very little bearing on the degree to which bullies and a cyberstalker had a direct impact on this girl's mental health.

The "not putting yourself online" thing is also a valid interest, and is something that every young person (especially girls) should be aware of. I actually forgot to bring this up, but it's an interesting topic. I've seen some back-and-forth on this thread along the lines of "she brought this on herself by flashing random dudes." Yeah, maybe. But young people have very little awareness of the consequences of their actions. You can tell a 13 year old girl over and over again that if she flashes someone, it's going to be on the internet forever, but she's going to be thinking to herself "yeah, that happens to people, of course I get that MOM, but in this particular situation, it'll be fine." Analogously, we all had to watch horrific images of gruesome accidents during drivers ed. That doesn't stop thousands of young men from racing each other in their dad's cars every Saturday night. Everyone involved in such a thing is thinking (to the extent they're thinking at all) "yeah, I know that driving like a crazy person could potentially kill me, but it's not going to happen tonight." Teenagers are stupid, and even when they believe they're being careful, they're probably overlooking things that would be obvious to an adult. That's exactly the position this girl was in.
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So - no mental help support for someone who obviously suffered from issues? I think it would have been better if it was all avoided before it even started with early intervention for an obviously troubled teen.

If people have problems they need help - whether they're being bullied or not. I think that would be a far bigger benefit.
 
Henrin said:
As has been pointed out from the beginning that apparently started this entire thing and I will say again, she is responsible for the act of killing herself. She is responsible for her suicide. No one else pulled the trigger and no one else chose the action. That was all on her. She was unstable, probably very mentally ill, and it was only made worse by the things done to her. That is it. CC wants to say that she isn't to blame for it though is responsible for it, but if you ask me that is just really missing the point of what responsibility means. It basically taking the first part and not really wanting to notice the second part, but whatever, it's really not that important.

Anyway, like it or not anxiety doesn't really lift responsibility of the decision or the action away from her. Though I understand why people might think such a thing.
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There's a difference between blame and responsibility. Blame evokes a sense of totality, that all aspects were her fault. They were not. The final act of the situation was her responsibility, but there were aspects of what lead to the end result and what was happening internally that were not under her control, and therefore not her responsibility.

As far as anxiety lifting the responsibility, these are two separate issues. Feelings are not a behavior. She is not responsible for her feelings, but she is responsible for how she responds to them.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
So - no mental help support for someone who obviously suffered from issues? I think it would have been better if it was all avoided before it even started with early intervention for an obviously troubled teen.

If people have problems they need help - whether they're being bullied or not. I think that would be a far bigger benefit.
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This probably would have helped.
 
BayToBay said:
I don't feel any need or moral authority to condemn her. Whatever she did, she did to herself.
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Nor I.

He (or whoever did this) hurt others and that elicits quite a different response. Legally, I can't see how he could be charged with her murder. Anyone who cares too can condemn him morally as a murderer or worse.
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Anyone can condemn anyone morally for anything they want.

The fact remains that the girl killed herself. No one did it to her.
 
Medusa said:
you dont have to have such a disorder to see what kind of results it can lead..anybody may want to kill himself...
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I understand that Medusa.
 
Medusa said:
, never said you called him slut..but admit..your comments are not so different from jerry'S posts..
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They are alot different from Jerry's posts.

If you can't see that, fine. Don't come at me with the use of terms like "slut" in an attempt to attach them to ME and my way of discussing this incident.
 
Caine said:
They are alot different from Jerry's posts.

If you can't see that, fine. Don't come at me with the use of terms like "slut" in an attempt to attach them to ME and my way of discussing this incident.
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i never said it..
 
Medusa said:
i see it..but we are talking about a child who had struggled both with anxiety and other bullies.and anxiety is an illness that can lead you to want to die.
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I understand, but none of that excuses her decision to kill herself.
 
Andalublue said:
No.

A policeman who shoots an armed perp who is threatening others is responsible for the death of the perp, but s/he is not (necessarily) to blame for it.
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Actually a pretty damn good example.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
So - no mental help support for someone who obviously suffered from issues? I think it would have been better if it was all avoided before it even started with early intervention for an obviously troubled teen.

If people have problems they need help - whether they're being bullied or not. I think that would be a far bigger benefit.
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Bigger benefit than what? I'm not saying that mental help support wouldn't have been a good idea. It absolutely would have been. It's just not relevant to the two topics I was addressing.
 
Chelsea said:
I don't think many of you know the pain of being completely outcast in such a way. I was bullied my entire life by kids, and then family, and even teachers. I didn't become stronger, just a social outcast who can't hold a job because I can't relate to people. I remember going numb at one point in order to feel something other than pain.

I didn't cry, laugh, yell, or have any emotions for a year or more because the depression was so bad. I made imaginary worlds where people cared about me and daydreamed constantly, playing with pencils and ppper in 7th grade and making up new worlds. I knew not to talk to kids or sit with anyone at lunch from elementary to 8th grade. If I hadn't made my imaginary world and immersed myself in both my studies and writting, I wouldn't have made it through. I can't look back on that time to draw strength.from it and wish my childhood had been different everyday. It caused me PTSD and chronic insomnia (as I write I haven't slept in 2 days). Yeah she chose to take her own life, but as a child, it was someone elses responsibility to protect her, when she couldn't protect herself.

This isn't a temporary problem. I'm living proof i' can affect your whole life into adulthood.
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You are not alone, Chelsea, and it can get better. I applaud you for having the courage to survive and to speak out against this evil.

I would love to be your friend, and I hope you will accept my offer of such. As you can see, we have too few people of courage in this country.

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Man, this has really gotten heated. So it seems some would protect verbal abuse as freedom of speech. Ever hear of harassment? I can't follow you around all day, yelling at you, saying means things, or threatening you, even if you are in public space. It's called harassment, and rightly so, it's illegal. I see no reason why such a thing can't spill over onto the internet, as it applies to people's personal public spaces, like facebook or twitter accounts. Now, facebook is pretty easy, simply block or black list people who you don't want posting on your wall. I think the REAL issue with facebook is that it gives the user the ability to see what others might be saying "behind their back", so to speak. Which is a choice the user should not take, if they don't LIKE what they are reading. Not too sure about how twitter works, as I don't do it ever. I know it involves followers and such. I have to imagine that an account holder to choose who they let be followers, and can cut other followers out if they decide they don't like them. But again, it allows a victim to view what other have to say about them on a public forum. To **** like that, I say, ignorince is bliss. Simply don't look.

This entire cyber bullying thing seems to me to be a product, in no small way, of our own morbid curiosity. When I was in school, if I saw a group of kids who I knew would bully me stalk off to the lockers, I wouldn't hide around the corner to hear what they had to say about me, lol. Same principle can be applied to the net, I think. But what do I know? At 31, I guess I'm "too old to get it", lol.

Bullying in person, though? Gotta stand up to that ****. You let someone say hurtful things about you without giving them a taste of their own medicine is only going to teach them that it's perfectly OK to say hurtful things about you. Let's face it...parents of bullies are obviously failing at teaching their kids manners and making it stick...so the job inevitably falls to those kids' peers, just as teaching manners sometimes falls to adults for other adults. Someone calling you a ****? Call them semen breath. Someone making fun of the way you look? No problem, at least you don't look like them.

Be forwarned, though, that this action WILL eventually lead to a fight. The wordplay will go back and forth, some other kids will be drawn to the show, and then it's time to put up or shut up. Leave it to the bully to decide. A push or shove, a slap to the face...you can't let anyone get away with that without an equal retaliation. I'll tell you, though...when push comes to shove, MOST bullies back down, from my experience. Simply being willing to go the distance is all you really need. But sometimes you run afoul of the true bad kid, the one who just doesn't care. And then you gotta fight. Win or lose, I PROMISE you, it will be the LAST time to have to fight that particular person. Ever.
 
I am very pleased to see this thread turned over to the adults, and I want to address the legal side of cyberbullying.

Why is it different from the bullying we all experienced when we were young?

Because it is much, much more intense.

I, like all of you, will say things online that I won't say face to face, when I'm angry. I have an ongoing dispute with my SIL and at times, we've exchanged angry emails. We're two grown women, law abiding, emotionally stable, and those emails at time degenerated into threats of violence. Now imagine what a pedophile with evil intentions might be capable of saying to a child. Hell, look at some of what's been said on this thread. "The world is better off without that skank." Try to imagine the power such messages would have on a child, already unstable, if they were coming by the dozens every day from an adult.

Asking that our children evaluate threats written to them by adults is far, far, far beyond their skill set. It's beyond most of ours, and we're adults. If a stranger sends you a PM saying "I saw what you wrote and I'm going to kill you for it this week", who among us isn't going to feel even a moment's fear?

Because it is wall to wall, 24/7/365.

I was bullied by children and teachers in my freshman year of high school and I changed schools to get away from it. Children now cannot do this -- unless we put them in Witness Protection, all the kids in their community know what's happening and many egg it on. The bullying victim cannot use the library, cannot sit peacefully inside her own home, cannot use the phone, cannot go anywhere and escape this pattern of conduct.

Anyone who has ever studied torture will tell you, unrelenting pain is the most devastating.

Because some adults with bad intentions seek out a child -- sometimes, a specific child -- to torture to death.

YOUR kids are in harms way every time you leave the room while they are playing with an X-Box, or go to the library, or visit a friend with a pc in the home. If our children were surrounded by killers with knives and guns, we'd take steps to protect them and we'd send the killers to prison. It is not any different -- the mental torture is calculated to drive a child to suicide and it is highly effective at doing just that.

For these reasons, and more,the adult who tortured Megan Meier to death, just like the adult who tortured the child in the Op to death, should be punished. We need new laws to allow us to do that, and while we can disagree as to what those laws should criminalize, we should be able to agree:

No adult should be free to target a child and torture that child to suicide.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I've tried to avoid this thread because I knew if I read it, what I'd find. And a brief scan proved me correct: a complete lack of education and knowledge regarding suicide by some members of this message board.

So, here's a little quiz for you all... and consider that I did my graduate school final paper on suicide (similar to a dissertation, but not one), so I am eminently qualified to determine whether you are accurate or not:

1) What person is responsible for the suicide?
2) What are the characteristics of a suicidal person?
3) How does that suicidal person feel?
4) For one who completes a suicide, why would that person have not asked for help?

Let's start there and see how you all do.
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I studied depression and suicide a bit in college, but not to a lengthy extent. My answers are pretty much anecdotal.

CaptainCourtesy said:
1) What person is responsible for the suicide?
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I think the girl, Kody Maxson, and all of her tormentors share some part in her suicide. I don't think the blame rests solely on on group/person or another.

CaptainCourtesy said:
2) What are the characteristics of a suicidal person?
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Depression, loss of energy, extreme tiredness, maybe addictive behaviors like eating food or taking drugs to medicate it away... It likely depends on the type of depression, too. There's also likely the inability to focus and remember. There's undoubtedly thoughts of suicide as well. While reading through my Abnormal Psychology class there's such thing as the Suicide Bell Curve, iirc, where a person gets so depressed they're too sad to even kill themselves, so when given anti-depressants the caretakers have to be on watch for when the sufferer becomes "happy enough" to commit suicide. It's both bizarre and depressing to hear that kind of thing.

CaptainCourtesy said:
3) How does that suicidal person feel?
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Probably like crap. Tired, restless, irritable, probably eats too much or not enough. ****, I've had it too. I've suffered from both depression and ADD at the same time, and have come close to killing myself once or twice because of the stress from trying to focus on my studies under the weight of an emotionally, verbally, and sometimes physically abusive father. It's been two years since I left that personal hell, and my own symptoms of depression have gone away, mostly. There are still those overcast days where I get those symptoms.

CaptainCourtesy said:
4) For one who completes a suicide, why would that person have not asked for help?
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Probably felt hopeless. Like their life didn't really matter much. That they hung at the end of a string, suspended between a solid boulder that symbolizes a cruel and uncaring world, and the dark abyss of death which could also serve as an escape from it all.
 
KevinKohler said:
Man, this has really gotten heated. So it seems some would protect verbal abuse as freedom of speech. Ever hear of harassment? I can't follow you around all day, yelling at you, saying means things, or threatening you, even if you are in public space. It's called harassment, and rightly so, it's illegal. I see no reason why such a thing can't spill over onto the internet, as it applies to people's personal public spaces, like facebook or twitter accounts. Now, facebook is pretty easy, simply block or black list people who you don't want posting on your wall. I think the REAL issue with facebook is that it gives the user the ability to see what others might be saying "behind their back", so to speak. Which is a choice the user should not take, if they don't LIKE what they are reading. Not too sure about how twitter works, as I don't do it ever. I know it involves followers and such. I have to imagine that an account holder to choose who they let be followers, and can cut other followers out if they decide they don't like them. But again, it allows a victim to view what other have to say about them on a public forum. To **** like that, I say, ignorince is bliss. Simply don't look.

This entire cyber bullying thing seems to me to be a product, in no small way, of our own morbid curiosity. When I was in school, if I saw a group of kids who I knew would bully me stalk off to the lockers, I wouldn't hide around the corner to hear what they had to say about me, lol. Same principle can be applied to the net, I think. But what do I know? At 31, I guess I'm "too old to get it", lol.

Bullying in person, though? Gotta stand up to that ****. You let someone say hurtful things about you without giving them a taste of their own medicine is only going to teach them that it's perfectly OK to say hurtful things about you. Let's face it...parents of bullies are obviously failing at teaching their kids manners and making it stick...so the job inevitably falls to those kids' peers, just as teaching manners sometimes falls to adults for other adults. Someone calling you a ****? Call them semen breath. Someone making fun of the way you look? No problem, at least you don't look like them.

Be forwarned, though, that this action WILL eventually lead to a fight. The wordplay will go back and forth, some other kids will be drawn to the show, and then it's time to put up or shut up. Leave it to the bully to decide. A push or shove, a slap to the face...you can't let anyone get away with that without an equal retaliation. I'll tell you, though...when push comes to shove, MOST bullies back down, from my experience. Simply being willing to go the distance is all you really need. But sometimes you run afoul of the true bad kid, the one who just doesn't care. And then you gotta fight. Win or lose, I PROMISE you, it will be the LAST time to have to fight that particular person. Ever.
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While I agree with some of what you have to say, I have to throw in some caveats.

Things have changed in the past couple of decades. Kids and teenagers don't have fist fights very often anymore... it tends to be all verbal/emotional abuse (99%), OR it tends to escalate to someone being shot, stabbed or gang-beatdown, instead of anything remotely like a "fair fight".

When our society decided to adopt a "zero tolerance" policy toward violence, even minor violence like someone who desperately deserved it getting punched in the nose, our society unwittingly removed one of the major constraints on verbal/emotional bullying, and one of the major outlets for young-male aggression and frustration. As a result you get ten times more verbal stuff now, and it festers and stews and steams until someone has had more than they can take and they EXPLODE... and either kill themselves, or try to kill the bully, or go Columbine on everyone (relatively rare but it happens).

The "honor code" that used to be prevalent when I was younger, that more often than not meant that social conflicts that went to violence mostly resulted in something like a "fair fight" has largely disappeared thru lack of use, and teens who opt to respond with violence are more likely to get a bunch of friends to do a gang-beatdown on someone they're pissed at, or else resort to weapons and potentially deadly violence.

In other words, in most High Schools and Middle Schools (excluding gang-infested ones), there is LESS violence, but MORE verbal/emotional/social bullying and when there IS violence, it is typically far more severe and far more likely to result in fatality than when I was in school.

Even knife fights, which happened now and then when I was a teen, usually ended with someone getting cut but not stabbed... because there was a strong compunction still against killing.

Schools teach conflict resolution, and teach the kids to report bullying, but they don't teach the kids WHAT to do when that does not WORK. In my day it would end with a fistfight, most of the time... and then it would usually be over, at least for a while.

There were exceptions to that... a few guys who genuinely liked to fight and didn't care if they got banged up too, and a few guys who were actual thugs. But in general...

BTW, not all bullies are cowards. I had to fight one guy three times before he left me alone, though I hurt him every time...
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
OK. Now that some of the riff-raff have been exterminated from this thread, let's see if I can shed some light on this by answering my own questions. You might be surprised by some of the answers.

And for full disclosure: I am a therapist who works primarily with teenagers and have been for 22+ years. I work with very difficult teens... difficult in the sense of depressed/suicidal. I have dealt with, probably, well over 100 suicide attempts... either from clients that I got AFTER their attempt, or clients who attempted while in treatment with me. In fact, on Monday of this week, I hospitalized a 17 year old girl for a pretty serious suicide attempt.

Also, I wrote my final paper in graduate school on Suicidality.



The person who committed suicide. I know, some of you may be surprised by this answer, but you must keep reading to understand the rationale. We are each responsible for our behaviors and how we chose to respond to our feelings... the FEELINGS are what is beyond our control. Example: if I could choose how I feel, I'd be happy all the time. Now, there is a sequence of events that occurs in situations like what happened to this girl: triggering event ---> interpretation/thoughts/feelings of that event ---> behavioral reaction to that event. The same event can happen to several different people, and each of those people will interpret the event differently... because of their life experiences, state of mind, or something else. This girl was bullied. Many people are. How someone takes that bullying is an individual response which leads to an individual act. This is why the act of suicide is the responsibility of the individual who commits suicide.

Does the bully have any fault in this issue? For bullying, for sure. For contributing, for sure... however, there many be many other issues that also contributed. The bully is not to blame for the suicide. Now... and this is EXTREMELY important... the individual who commits suicide is also not to blame... it is their responsibility, though. This individual is a victim... a victim of bullying, a victim of their perceptions, undoubtedly based on other things. One does not blame the victim in these cases, but place responsibility on the one who acts.



This is where #1 starts to get a bit murky. One who attempts suicide has some significant mental health issues. Regardless of whether or not the act seemed to be a singular event, or something random, it's not. No one attempts suicide on a whim without some mental health issues being present. We have to remember that one of the basic instincts of life is survival. All animals have this, and for someone to behave in a way that contradicts this basic instinct, indicates that something more powerful than that is happening. The suicidal person cannot see a way out of their situation and has decided that ending their life is preferable to living in their situation. Now, this though, in and of itself, may be a sign of that mental illness, since the individual may be completely closed off to other possibilities.

There is no suicide without mental illness. Therefore, this mitigates the complete responsibility of the individual. They are unable to make a rational decision because of their state of mind. This is one reason why I usually suggest to clients to NOT make any big, all encompassing decisions when being completely ruled by their unstable emotional state.

Most suicidal people cannot see past their perceived hopelessness of their situation.



Hopeless. Depressed. Overwhelmed. But the overriding feeling is usually intense emotional pain. Consider this. You have a toothache... a bad one. All you want is for that pain to end. This is how a suicidal person feels... even more so. They will do ANYTHING for the pain that they are in, to end. Even kill themselves. For them, death is preferable to feeling in pain.

They are also angry. I have theorized that suicide is often a desire to commit a homicide turned inwards. In many cases, the individual turns that anger towards someone else, on themselves. This is due to self-esteem, depression, and often a long period of feeling emotionally abused or beaten down.



Usually they do, sometimes directly, usually not. Suicidal feelings are very strange and if you haven't experienced them in some direct sort of way, it's hard to imagine them. They conflict with the basic instinct of survival, yet the individual can make themselves believe that they are completely logical. Sometimes it doesn't even occur to them to ask for help: suicide seems like the logical response to their situation.

Sometimes they have asked for help, but do not receive the help they need. Lots of times people believe that these teens are just being dramatic. Rule #1 when dealing with suicidal teens: ALWAYS take their suicidal comments/gestured seriously. ALWAYS. Should I say it again? It is irrelevant as to whether they are being dramatic or not. They are communicating that they are NOT OK. So, it is certainly possible that they did seek help but were not heard.

It is certainly possible that they are in such a hopeless state that they do not believe anyone can help them... so why bother saying anything. Again... their mental health issues overrule instincts... and what they've probably heard over and over: talk to someone.

So, who's fault is it that the girl in the OP committed suicide? No one's. Who's responsibility? Hers. Who contributed to what happened to her? EVERYONE. Personally, I don't care about the blame and responsibility in this situation. It's pretty irrelevant. I'm more about how to prevent things like this from happening, and what to do about them after they happen. Assigning blame accomplishes ZERO. This is about mental illness, isolation, being aware of bullying, and taking our teens seriously. The blame and responsibility is pretty meaningless.

Oh, and for anyone who made any comments about her behaviors. Irrelevant. Nothing to do with the issue at all. I could care less whether she had sex with no one, or 1000 guys. Does not mean that anyone had the right to harass her because of those behaviors... not did it mean that her response to that harassment was OK. This is what I mean. Blame is irrelevant.

I hope this post provided you all with some information on this topic.
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Good stuff. Something every parent, especially every parent of a teenager, needs to know.

Let me address one aspect in particular...



CC said:
The suicidal person cannot see a way out of their situation ...the individual may be completely closed off to other possibilities.

Most suicidal people cannot see past their perceived hopelessness of their situation.

...... They will do ANYTHING for the pain that they are in, to end. Even kill themselves. For them, death is preferable to feeling in pain.
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This. There have been times in my life when I felt that way, and while I'm not the suicidal sort I probably came closer to considering it during those times.

Teenagers often feel trapped in a bad situation, and lack the experience and maturity to see a way out of it. I think this is a major factor in many teens struggling with depression and suicidal thoughts.

When my son was about 14 or so, he was having a very hard time in school. There were a handful of people who seemed devoted to making his school hours miserable, but for the most part they stopped short of anything he was permitted to respond to with violence. (I'd always told him, "anyone can run their mouth and that's not a reason to flatten them; just laugh at them and tell them talk is cheap. But if they lay so much as ONE HAND ON YOUR PERSON, you have my permission and enthusiastic encouragement to beat the living crap out of them.")

We talk all the time, so I knew what was going on. I'd talked to his teachers and to the principle. Didn't do much good.

He became noticeably depressed and started talking about how he didn't want to go on living this way, and didn't see anyway out.

We had a LONG talk one evening about this, when I became worried about his mental state. I won't try to reproduce the whole conversation, but we spoke very frankly about how tough life can be sometimes, and about suicide and people I'd known who'd committed suicide or attempted it. I endeavored to SHOW him by examples that there were other things they could have done FAR less drastic to change their circumstances.

I told him "you may feel there are no options, but there ARE... you're just too young and inexperienced to see them. I am an old veteran and I can find options where you would see none... USE that. My brain and my experience of life ARE AT YOUR SERVICE... talk to me and we'll find a solution. If it really gets so bad that you CANNOT take it anymore, tell me so and I will take you out of that school and find some other way to complete your education."

There was a lot more but that was the gist of it. I think that just knowing that he had a "Strategic planner" (me) on his side, and an "escape hatch" if it REALLY got to the point where he'd rather die than go to school, made him feel better. His depression seemed to ease after that, and he managed to cope with all the BS.

It probably didn't hurt anything that one of the idiots bothering him was finally fool enough to touch him, and my young giant literally picked him up and threw him across the classroom into a wall. :mrgreen: After that I think the level of bullying went down a good bit. He didn't even get into trouble, because the teachers and principle knew (from previous conversations with both him and me) that he was being bullied and harassed.

It was a nervous time for me, though, since as a parent of a teen you have to worry about teenage suicides. I knew three people I grew up with who committed suicide in their teens or early twenties, one of whom had seemed like a happy kid with ZERO problems... so I've always taken the issue very seriously.

This, and another occasion where I convinced an adult man that it was preferable to move to another state than kill himself over a woman, has convinced me that one of the most important things you can give a possibly-suicidal person is OPTIONS they can believe in.
 
Goshin said:
Good stuff. Something every parent, especially every parent of a teenager, needs to know.

Let me address one aspect in particular...






This. There have been times in my life when I felt that way, and while I'm not the suicidal sort I probably came closer to considering it during those times.

Teenagers often feel trapped in a bad situation, and lack the experience and maturity to see a way out of it. I think this is a major factor in many teens struggling with depression and suicidal thoughts.

When my son was about 14 or so, he was having a very hard time in school. There were a handful of people who seemed devoted to making his school hours miserable, but for the most part they stopped short of anything he was permitted to respond to with violence. (I'd always told him, "anyone can run their mouth and that's not a reason to flatten them; just laugh at them and tell them talk is cheap. But if they lay so much as ONE HAND ON YOUR PERSON, you have my permission and enthusiastic encouragement to beat the living crap out of them.")

We talk all the time, so I knew what was going on. I'd talked to his teachers and to the principle. Didn't do much good.

He became noticeably depressed and started talking about how he didn't want to go on living this way, and didn't see anyway out.

We had a LONG talk one evening about this, when I became worried about his mental state. I won't try to reproduce the whole conversation, but we spoke very frankly about how tough life can be sometimes, and about suicide and people I'd known who'd committed suicide or attempted it. I endeavored to SHOW him by examples that there were other things they could have done FAR less drastic to change their circumstances.

I told him "you may feel there are no options, but there ARE... you're just too young and inexperienced to see them. I am an old veteran and I can find options where you would see none... USE that. My brain and my experience of life ARE AT YOUR SERVICE... talk to me and we'll find a solution. If it really gets so bad that you CANNOT take it anymore, tell me so and I will take you out of that school and find some other way to complete your education."

There was a lot more but that was the gist of it. I think that just knowing that he had a "Strategic planner" (me) on his side, and an "escape hatch" if it REALLY got to the point where he'd rather die than go to school, made him feel better. His depression seemed to ease after that, and he managed to cope with all the BS.

It probably didn't hurt anything that one of the idiots bothering him was finally fool enough to touch him, and my young giant literally picked him up and threw him across the classroom into a wall. :mrgreen: After that I think the level of bullying went down a good bit. He didn't even get into trouble, because the teachers and principle knew (from previous conversations with both him and me) that he was being bullied and harassed.

It was a nervous time for me, though, since as a parent of a teen you have to worry about teenage suicides. I knew three people I grew up with who committed suicide in their teens or early twenties, one of whom had seemed like a happy kid with ZERO problems... so I've always taken the issue very seriously.

This, and another occasion where I convinced an adult man that it was preferable to move to another state than kill himself over a woman, has convinced me that one of the most important things you can give a possibly-suicidal person is OPTIONS they can believe in.
Click to expand...

Firstly, you handled things with your son, great.

Secondly, a point that you made that I did not key on in my post (as I was discussing suicide in general) was how teens handle situations... and this goes directly to what happened with the girl in the OP. Teens DON'T have the experience to manage difficult situations/feelings... and their brains are not developed enough to manage them, either. At this stage, the parts of their brain that look for pleasure, to end pain, and to manage impulses have not yet developed enough. Look at that combination that I just wrote. VERY dangerous, and when you add the part of their brains that regulate decision making still being poor, you have a recipe for disaster. Teens will often look for anything to avoid pain and with their impulsivity and lack of experience in decision making, it is not surprising that so many run into issues that adults would be able to manage much more easily.

Every teen needs an adult that they can trust and bounce things off of, be it a parent, a teacher, a therapist, a coach, whatever. Handling teens is a major challenge for lots of reasons, but for them to succeed, adults in their lives need to learn how to assist them appropriately. That often means going the extra mile.
 
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