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The bullies win again[W710; 739]

Rainman05 said:
Teach children in school that the internet is not their friend and that if you do anything stupid and put it on the internet, it will always be there.

Aside from that all you can do is hope that parents do a better job of raising their children well. Enforcing "draconian laws" vs bullying will only hurt all the children.
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It is not enough.

Giving would-be bullies something to truly fear... is.
 
Wake said:
I want Draconian methods to be passed to deter bullying once and for all. Currently, what we are doing is not enough.

What do you think ought to be done?
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beyond education and parental involvement, im not sure.
 
Verthaine said:
I'm going to have to agree a with MaggieD on this one on both points.

I sincerely hope,Rainman05,you are not the type of person who delights in the misery and self destruction of others.
What that poor troubled girl needed was help and understanding during life,not condemnation after death.
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I agree with Verthaine and Maggie

There is "normal" bullyiing like what most of us went through and then there is what she had to deal with. They are 180 degrees apart. I am talking from personal (my sons) experiencs. Anyone who says they are the same needs to get up off their arm chair.
 
Wake said:
It is not enough.

Giving would-be bullies something to truly fear... is.
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So your solution implies traumatizing children? Way to go...

How does that work? You will purposefully, institutionally violate the civil rights, the children rights and traumatize some children in order to make sure that those children will not do the same to other children? Do you understand what the difference between having the GOVERNMENT, an institution doing that sort of thing and having CHILDREN or private citizens do that sort of thing. One is tyranny, the other is kids being kids.
 
Wake said:
It is not enough.

Giving would-be bullies something to truly fear... is.
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Read post 47.

Heres an ironic question, isnt what you are proposing, itself a form of bulling? Heres another one, what excactly IS bulling?
 
Verthaine said:
Ummm.Okay?
Good for you.
Whether and who you have or haven't any sympathy for is your concern,not mine.
All I did was point out that there are people out there whose actions and words apparently influenced her decision to take her own life.
If you chose not to hold them partially responsible ,that of course is your right.
I choose to do otherwise.
Like I said on a previous post,I think what this child need was help and understanding during her life,not conde,nation after her death.
But hey,that's just my opinion.
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Also, The idea of only you can make you mad is a psychological falasy. No one stands alone in how they "decide" how to react. External forces constantly bombard our persception of reality and ourselves. High levels of one type stimuli will result in a specific response 100% of the time. Negative high levels will be internalized and result in a fuge perception (Stockholm Syndrome).
The response is hightened also if the person is not mature enough to properly evaluate it.

In English - She responded to her environment and the forces that werer impacting her.
 
Rainman05 said:
So your solution implies traumatizing children? Way to go...

How does that work? You will purposefully, institutionally violate the civil rights, the children rights and traumatize some children in order to make sure that those children will not do the same to other children? Do you understand what the difference between having the GOVERNMENT, an institution doing that sort of thing and having CHILDREN or private citizens do that sort of thing. One is tyranny, the other is kids being kids.
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No, please don't try to desensationalize what I'm saying, in order to defend these bullies. Don't you use "children" in place of "bullies," and don't use "traumatize" instead of "punish." I'm all for honest and open discussion, but at the mere hint of spin, well, it's like trying to sneak a raw New York Steak strip past a tiger.

Maybe not prison, but how about jail? I have no problem with these cowardly little ***** being thrown in jail for a year or two if their bullying directly contributed to a person's suicide. A year or two in jail is nothing compared to a life lost as a result of constant misery.

You know what? Scratch that. I've had enough of these pieces of festering ****. Make these bullies (IDGAF how old) a piece of the pie. Give 'em a piece of misery, too, in jail, and let them feel some sense of fear and a desire to die. What's that? Don't twaumatize these poor wittle inncoent babies to make sure their utter bull**** doesn't claim another young life, by scaring the bejesus out of them? Ha! Scare the little bastards. Make them stop!

Lol you gotta love this. "Kids being kids." Hey, do you hear yourself right now? "Bullying until some poor soul kills herself..." and "kids be kids." No, my firend, NO. Making a kid's life an utter ****ing Hell until she kills herself is NOT and never WILL BE "kids being kids." No, that's being an utterly rotten little piece of **** that needs to be taught a lesson. Make that little punk into an example.

Do NOT protect bullies in my presence and expect to be taken seriously. Enough damage has already been done.
 
Wake said:
It is not enough.

Giving would-be bullies something to truly fear... is.
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somehow i feel this would be sinking to the bullies level i mean if you honestly believe for one second they actual thought she would kill her self then you MIGHT be validated but i don't see how they could actual see the full effect of what they were doing tell it was too late. kids and teens can be some of the cruelest people out there because of the simple fact that they cannot fully realize the consequences of there actions. The people who should bear the weight of responsibility should be the many adults surrounding the situation and failed to prevent it.
 
Patrickt said:
I'm sorry but only one person is responsible for this suicide.
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Are you nuts?

My brother killed himself because he was molested and abused and mistreated and ultimately felt unloved and unworthy of life (imo).

He did not create those feelings...they were forced into his brain by others through selfish and hideously cruel acts.


Based on what this women says she went through (I have seen this story before reading it here), she went through a personal Hell.

If you remove all reason for someone to want to live anymore. If you abuse someone SO badly that you remove all feelings of joy inside them and replace them with nothing but pain and suffering and emptiness and confusion to such an extent that life itself is excruciating...then it is your fault for infecting that person with this misery through your actions.


She did not end her life. Her life ended when the last person to abuse her took the last bit of hope left in her lonely, teenaged heart.
She just turned off the lights, the party was already over.


When animals are in constant pain, we shoot them and call it 'kind'.

But when humans are in agony - they must endure it for decades and generations just because of some idiotic standard.


It is so sad that only in death did this girl find caring and compassion from others - others whom she never met who are genuinely saddened by the pain and loneliness she suffered.
 
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Suicide is ultimately the choice of the individual. However, the cruelty and emotional wounds of others can influence this choice. I don't agree with the girl's decision nor do I think it was right, but it takes a strong desire to die in order to go forward with suicide and the bullies caused her to have a quality of life where she would rather not live. The bullies are at fault as well and should be held accountable.
 
Wake said:
Do NOT protect bullies in my presence and expect to be taken seriously. Enough damage has already been done.
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Do you understand the difference between what bullies are doing and what you want the state to do?

I remind you again. The state, an institution, that is made BY the people, for the people to protect and better serve the citizens, all citizens... you want it to crack down on bullies in schools? The bullies themselves are NOT an institution. They are private individuals, underrage private individuals at that.

Better leave it to the parents.
 
Peter Grimm said:
In my opinion, the problem is that kids are learning all of life's lessons from each other. It's the blind leading the blind. They need better role models, and the school system can't provide that. We need to integrate them in to adult society a lot better.

I just started another thread on this in the "polls" section. Let me hear your thoughts over there.
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So the failure of the school system to help my son was the fault of the other children??????????
How does that work?
Also if you actually read my post I said it was the ADULTs who were bulllying my son and that the ADULTS they reported to allowed it because the ADULT society allowed it. Your entire argument or discussion if you preferred on my points at least is flawed to say the least.
If you have a system like existed in Michigan then you have a point.
But if you have a system like this one or where beating children is permitted then you are VERY WRONG. And more of that type of stuff happens in "private" schools than public because of the level of oversight is greater in public schools
 
PirateMk1 said:
Connery normally I agree with you, this case I dont. I've been the victom of "bullying" when I was growing up. I was short and an easy target and not very human savy. It sucked. Bad. But looking back several decades removed, that merciless pumiling and humiliation made me much more resiliant and tougher. I still aint very human savy, but now I am a Timex watch I take a lickin and still keep on ticken. People call me all sorts of names, and say things about my mama that I know aint true. It dont phase me one bit, if I even notice. If some one wants to get physical, they can do their worst, because I will most certainly do my best to my worst. I may lose and badly, but they will KNOW tangling with me will cost MUCH more then they care to pay. I pride my self in charging confiscatory rates for the privaledge of kicking my ass. My currency is blood and parts.

Life is misery on top of pain, wrapped in suckiness. What makes it worth living is the good and great moments that you occasionally experiance, and that makes the pain worth it. Point is whether we like it or not bulling is part of life and is how those of us that dont have naturally good social skills learn to cope and survive and prevail. It is nessary to experiance humiliation, pain, and suffering because it is how we develope empathy, self reliance, and toughness all important skills and attributes to help us better cope with the cold, cast iron, cruel bitch that life can be. It is also how we learn to take the bad in life and try to make it good or at least livable. While I hated every bloody second of my torture, I would NOT give even one second back if I could. I learned how to stand up for myself and how to be a man. I would have never done that if I wasnt bullied. Its been a looonnng time since I have been bullied in any significant way but I still remember it quite clearly and very much remember the lessons I was taught. I feel for the young girl, and family and loved ones, her death while tragic does provide inportant life lessons for those who were around her and for society at large. It is sad that this is so, but it is a part of life. He did not cause her death, she is wholely reasonsible for that, the price entirely too high, but he did contribute to her misery. I dont know for certain about the way the bully feels, but I know this, he will probabaly regret that he did what he did till the day he dies even though he did not directly kill her.

People will agree or disagree with what I wrote, it matters not to me, the reason I wrote it was I felt it needed to be said. As far as those who claim a crime has been commited, I say this. You are fools. This is a tragedy, a distraught girl took her own life. Those who said unkind and demeaning things while cruel, and capricious in their actions and words, did nothing criminal. This is a tragedy nothing more.
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This is the measuring rod I am using: a troupe of girls from her first school came and beat her up. Further, if there are laws in her jurisdiction that speak to: "Whoever willfully and maliciously engages in a knowing pattern of conduct or series of acts over a period of time directed at a specific person, which seriously alarms that person and would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress, shall be guilty of the crime of criminal harassment and shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 21/2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or by both such fine and imprisonment. The conduct or acts described in this paragraph shall include, but not be limited to, conduct or acts conducted by mail or by use of a telephonic or telecommunication device or electronic communication device including, but not limited to, any device that transfers signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data or intelligence of any nature transmitted in whole or in part by a wire, radio, electromagnetic, photo-electronic or photo-optical system, including, but not limited to, electronic mail, internet communications, instant messages or facsimile communications."( see General Laws: CHAPTER 265, Section 43A )
 
Rainman05 said:
Do you understand the difference between what bullies are doing and what you want the state to do?

I remind you again. The state, an institution, that is made BY the people, for the people to protect and better serve the citizens, all citizens... you want it to crack down on bullies in schools? The bullies themselves are NOT an institution. They are private individuals, underrage private individuals at that.

Better leave it to the parents.
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As said before, it's not enough.

These bullies need to be punished, but what do you want to do about it? NOTHING. Why even post her if you're going to defend these bullies and lash out against any attempt to bring bullies to justice?

These bullies are a problem. If someone is bullying someone else, punish them to the fullest extent of the law. Make laws that will put them in jail or, if not jail, the next best thing, "Juvy" or whatever it's called.

Don't keep protecting these bullies while trying to peddle some half-assed empathy for this dead girl. The very people you're protecting can and sometimes do contribute to teen suicides.

The parents don't give a ****. Hold the ******** themselves, the bullies, accountable for their actions!
 
Lutherf said:
Exactly!

If you're going to get past the bullying crap you have to deal with it head on and let the bully know that what they're doing is of no consequence to you. Sometimes it requires fighting back physically and some times intellectually but it ALWAYS requires standing up for yourself. That's where the parents failed. They just kept on moving the kid around instead of helping her address the issue directly. When kids do stupid things they need to know that they have to take their licks but that the stupid thing doesn't define them and that it will eventually be a part of their past.
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This comment is very sad. You obviously have no idea how extreme bullying can be in todays schools. I do not care how much of a tough guy approach you want to take. Children are not adults and they respond differently than some of us. Please read the posts heree about my son and then tell me how a child with Aspergers Syndrome shoulld have "toughed it out" then I will let you explain it to him.
 
Wake said:
I want Draconian methods to be passed to deter bullying once and for all. Currently, what we are doing is not enough.

What do you think ought to be done?
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The issue is not the amount its the degree and the "acceptability" of it be certain parts of our society. Bullying (teasing) will always be with us its part of our lesser angels. Its the degree that must be controlled. And as you can see from the various posts it will be a hard sell. If you wish I will tell you privately how it was handled in SW Michigan. It worked very well.
 
I want Draconian methods passed. What is being done currently is not enough.

We as a society should rear up in response to bullying, as a swarm of deadly wasps to a threat.
 
Wake said:
I want Draconian methods passed. What is being done currently is not enough.

We as a society should rear up in response to bullying, as a swarm of deadly wasps to a threat.
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Generally, I disagree with this kind of 'mobism'.

But in this case, I agree with it.

This has gotten ridiculously out of hand and must be stopped at almost any cost.

Teenagers that bully must be treated as adults in the criminal system.

Expelling them is not enough. That just makes things worse often.

Throw them in court and in jail for assault, threats and anything else the legal system can think up.

This is illegal in the 'real' world.

It must be made illegal in the 'school world' as well.

Put cameras in every hallway and everywhere outdoors on school property. Put human monitors in bathrooms. Have people monitor public sites on the internet and look for the signs of online bullying. Spend the money to have people correlate this information and develop procedures for dealing with it. Contact the police at the first sign of illegality. And force the police and the courts to come down HARD on these bullies.

Right now, bullies in schools know they have little to fear from the legal system for their actions.

This freedom from fear must be removed.
 
Connery said:
This is the measuring rod I am using: a troupe of girls from her first school came and beat her up. Further, if there are laws in her jurisdiction that speak to: "Whoever willfully and maliciously engages in a knowing pattern of conduct or series of acts over a period of time directed at a specific person, which seriously alarms that person and would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress, shall be guilty of the crime of criminal harassment and shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 21/2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or by both such fine and imprisonment. The conduct or acts described in this paragraph shall include, but not be limited to, conduct or acts conducted by mail or by use of a telephonic or telecommunication device or electronic communication device including, but not limited to, any device that transfers signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data or intelligence of any nature transmitted in whole or in part by a wire, radio, electromagnetic, photo-electronic or photo-optical system, including, but not limited to, electronic mail, internet communications, instant messages or facsimile communications."( see General Laws: CHAPTER 265, Section 43A )
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The girls if any charges should be brought should be brought up on assult. IE. they physically harmed another person. The law that you quoted quite frankly disturbes me, as it is very vague so say the least. My barber and I could be charged under this law for the give and take we have. Some of the things we say to each other if others didnt know our history would be considered VERY harrasing, and down right offensive sometimes. Its just the way we happen to roll. There happens to be a couple of funny stories from that give and take and the reactions of other people by the way. That said putting people, especially young adults in prison for essintially atrotious behavior, I find that to be distrubing. Its bad law as far as I am concerend, from what it tries to punish to its construction.
 
Having been violently bullied to the point of having to leave the ****ty public school system, I will pull no punches on this issue. The only thin that will truly bore into the thick skulls of these pieces of **** is fear of jail/prison.
 
Wake said:
As said before, it's not enough.

These bullies need to be punished, but what do you want to do about it? NOTHING. Why even post her if you're going to defend these bullies and lash out against any attempt to bring bullies to justice?

These bullies are a problem. If someone is bullying someone else, punish them to the fullest extent of the law. Make laws that will put them in jail or, if not jail, the next best thing, "Juvy" or whatever it's called.

Don't keep protecting these bullies while trying to peddle some half-assed empathy for this dead girl. The very people you're protecting can and sometimes do contribute to teen suicides.

The parents don't give a ****. Hold the ******** themselves, the bullies, accountable for their actions!
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I see you either do not read my posts or I am not clear enough.

Let me be clear.

I am AGAINST institutionalized punishment, especially at the magnitude you desire, of bullies because they are:
a) children
b) citizens
c) like a) specified, they are children. They are not mature. In very rare cases can they be held fully responsible for their actions because most do not forsee what consequences their actions can have.

So I am against having the GOVERNMENT come in and regulate, through programs and policies, how bullies should be treated... and I repeat, especially at the level you are proposing.

THAT BEING SAID:

I am not saying that whoever behaves inappropriately towards their colleagues, teachers or parents should be left unpunished. I am all for letting teachers slap the kid who mistreats his colleagues or teachers. Dismiss them from class or expel them without permission to come near school grounds ever again. I am against allowing them to beaten by teachers. I am however of the opinion that parents should be allowed to administer corporal punishment to their children WHEN there is NO OTHER WAY and all other options have been EXHAUSTED. I am not pro-abuse but against abuse. So I am against child-abuse but not against a good spanking if there is no other way to go about it. Ofc, there are age restrictions. Never for kids under 14yrs old for instance.

I am also pro-military school for children who behave poorly both in the academic sphere and the behavioral sphere. I am AGAINST sending them to jail before they are 18. I am also against giving them a permanent penal record before they are 18 (unless they do first degree murder or something on that level. bullying, though it may result in suicide, is not the same, not by far).

Ultimately, a suicide has multiple parties to blame for especially in this case. I cannot rule out the person who killed herself as being blameless. She is to blame for numerous things and carried the last drop of the blame with her to her grave. Her parents carry a large deal of the blame and the police carry a large deal of blame too. And also, the mature person who blackmailed her. The least amount of blame is carried by the gealous girlfriend of the guy who the girl in the video fell for and the other kids. They are NOT her keepers. They do deserve to be punished with suspended from class and maybe a lower grade... as well as being forced to attend correctional classes for their behaviour. But other than that, no. They were underrage and could not possibly, in any way, forsee that this would happen. Professional psychiatrists and her parents couldn't figure out that she was depressed dammit and you want 14-15 yrs old kids to figure it out?


I think your personal emotions get in the way of a reasonable argument here and you are blindsided to certain aspects. The WORST way to handle such a situation is to have the government handle it. They cannot handle the most basic of things. Don't EVER rely on the government to solve your problems.
 
Wake said:
Having been violently bullied to the point of having to leave the ****ty public school system, I will pull no punches on this issue. The only thin that will truly bore into the thick skulls of these pieces of **** is fear of jail/prison.
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Did it make you tougher? Did it make you more empathetic? Did though the bullying, you learn to cope and survive and fight back? Learn when its time to leave. Whether you like it or not the crucible that it was helped distill you to your current nature. Is that a bad thing what you are now?
 
PirateMk1 said:
Did it make you tougher? Did it make you more empathetic? Did though the bullying, you learn to cope and survive and fight back? Learn when its time to leave. Whether you like it or not the crucible that it was helped distill you to your current nature. Is that a bad thing what you are now?
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Not sure what you mean.

Personally, I'd rather see these kinds of bullies dead. Harsh, sure, but honest.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Did it make you tougher? Did it make you more empathetic? Did though the bullying, you learn to cope and survive and fight back? Learn when its time to leave. Whether you like it or not the crucible that it was helped distill you to your current nature. Is that a bad thing what you are now?
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Sounds like you were a bully and now you are trying to justify your actions.


There are about a billion other ways to 'make you tougher'.

And the amount of suffering and suicide they cause is gigantically less.


It's amazing how many truly stupid posts are coming out of this thread.

To call bullying 'character building' is asinine in the extremis.
 
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