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People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

Say whatever you want, but the other shoe, a.k.a TAX, is going to come down and come down hard. It can't work without the MIDDLE CLASS being TAXed
ED.
Do you perhaps have some actual analysis to support this ****-crowing proclamation of yours?
 
This was obvious, just like Canada. They just don't have the numbers like the US.

Of course Canada and Taiwan are going to spend a whole lot less than the USA overall. How does a smaller population translate into lower cost per capita or as a percentage of GDP?

The US is way ahead in terms of amount spent per capita. Look at the contrast between the US and Japan, for example:

The United States spent nearly $8,000 per person in 2009 on health care services, more than Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden or Switzerland.

Japan spent the least — $2,878 per capita in 2008 — according to the report by The Commonwealth Fund, a private foundation that promotes improved health care in the United States.
Source: Raw Story (U.S. health care spending highest, Japan lowest: study | The Raw Story)

That's the issue that has to be faced. Obomneycare may help people get health insurance but it isn't helping with the core issue: costs.
 
I didnt take it as a challenge. But considering your comment and my lack of commentary I thought I should clarify myself, or at least try to add some relevance.

Obesity and alcoholism while they lead to major health issues, become difficult for any healthcare system to deal with. The reason being is that a certain amount of liberty allows for obesity and alcoholism to exist. And also considering that both are diverse compounded issues that also can involve the judicial system and genetics and perhaps even social/cultural, it becomes even more difficult to truly say that they are both healthcare issues. Not saying though that education could not be upped.

As far as different death rates and disease rates between the races, I would need to research more to understand whether it is racial discrimination or genetics that have caused the differences. Most likely though I can guess that its between both. Either way improvements are warranted.

Homicides, poor diet, and lack of exercise again are compounded issues. Social and cultural elements can be a big influence, again education is probably all that is really going to be effective in battling such things. Although metal disorders can be addressed by the healthcare system. Personally I think that the entire world lacks sufficient mental health care. I say that because of the different trends that become popular and that many different people have conflicting ideas in what works. The problem though is actually that most people would refuse any psychiatric help, because of the stigma of seeing a shrink implies. Im not crazy. Perhaps not, but there maybe some physical reason why you are so angry or why you eat five happy meals a day.

But the biggest difficulty that i see with improving our healthcare system is partisan politics. One side says this the other side says this, but neither realize that they are both the problem with our healthcare system. The healthcare system debate has become a whipping post for the Republican's and Democrat's to push out their chests and declare that their ideology is the most moral and ethical thing in the world. In reality one side wants us to mimic so so healthcare systems while the other wishes to just continue as we were. Obliviously we need some fresh innovative ideas, unfortunately I dont really have any. But that doesnt mean that through discussions like this one that we cannot come up with any new fresh innovative ideas.

Good post. By far the largest factor in poor health in the U.S. is obesity (increasing) and the direct medical problems that it leads to, heart disease, hypertension and diabeties, next is smoking (decreasing) and drug abuse (including alcohol - increasing). These, as you say, are NOT medical problems, but lifestyle/behavior issues that are beyond the scope of the PPACA, in fact, it mandates that ONLY age and smoking may even be considered for setting medical care insurance premium costs. That is insane, as this was a perfect oppotunity to INCREASE the up front costs of these bad behaviors, amplifying the effects of the existing "sin taxes" on alcohol and tobacco.
 
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Good post. By far the largest factor in poor health in the U.S. is obesity (increasing) and the direct medical problems that it leads to, heart disease, hypertension and diabeties, next is smoking (decreasing) and drug abuse (including alcohol - increasing). These, as you say, are NOT medical problems, but lifestyle/behavior issues that are beyond the scope of the PPACA, in fact, it mandates ONLY age and smoking be considered now for assigning medical care insurance premium costs. That is insane, as this was a perfect oppotunity to INCREASE the up front costs of these bad behaviors, amplifying the effects of the existing "sin taxes" on alcohol and tobacco.

Saying that obesity and drug abuse are not health care issues is definitely the most disingenous thing anyone has said in this thread.
 
Saying that obesity and drug abuse are not health care issues is definitely the most disingenous thing anyone has said in this thread.
It's just the "blame the victim" ploy all over again. So pathetic...
 
It's just the "blame the victim" ploy all over again. So pathetic...

Pointing a finger of blame is much easier than treating complex medical conditions, and it has the additional benefit of making the nanny-staters feel morally superior
 
Good post. By far the largest factor in poor health in the U.S. is obesity (increasing) and the direct medical problems that it leads to, heart disease, hypertension and diabeties, next is smoking (decreasing) and drug abuse (including alcohol - increasing). These, as you say, are NOT medical problems, but lifestyle/behavior issues that are beyond the scope of the PPACA, in fact, it mandates that ONLY age and smoking may even be considered for setting medical care insurance premium costs. That is insane, as this was a perfect oppotunity to INCREASE the up front costs of these bad behaviors, amplifying the effects of the existing "sin taxes" on alcohol and tobacco.

The problem is that while social and cultural or just a matter of liberty is the instigator, the fact is that the result ends up a healthcare issue. I am all for educating people the dangers and pitfalls of obesity and drinking alcohol/drugs. Or other high risk activities but I will never endorse the hedging of freedoms and liberty in the form of restrictive laws aimed at curbing high risk activities. Because the ends do not warrant the methods. I mean sure limit people from consuming alcohol (I dont drink so why should I care?) well then whats next? Dangerous sports? Perhaps any activity that is not good for the back? All this control to keep premiums down seems like a bad idea. Which is why I was saying that insurance is not a solution at all for the healthcare debate. Seems silly that a private service (insurance) really achieves that same as a communist state does. Health care is so important that people are willing to submit themselves to a dictatorship whether it be the state or the private sector either way we lose.
 
That's the issue that has to be faced. Obomneycare may help people get health insurance but it isn't helping with the core issue: costs.


And "costs", IMO are going to go up-up-up for MORE services, people, equipment, medicine/medical R&D, and everything else that goes in the the medical system. And the govt is broke. We're living on IOUs now and when that happens guess who pays the bills? Yup the Middle Class.
 
It's just the "blame the victim" ploy all over again. So pathetic...


What victim? Who puts that extra Big Burger in your hand? Who puts those drugs between your lips or in your arm? Those are personal choices by the "victim". So the victim needs to look in the mirror and they'll see who is making them the "victim".
 
I am all for educating people the dangers and pitfalls of obesity and drinking alcohol/drugs. Or other high risk activities but I will never endorse the hedging of freedoms and liberty in the form of restrictive laws aimed at curbing high risk activities.
No one is entitled to absolute freedom and liberty. The farthest that the most extreme yet still sane will take this notion is to the edges of a concept of ordered liberty. Pointing out that it is possible to err in one extreme is not an argument for remaining at the other.
 
"****-crowing". :lamo I love it! History.
The **** crows as confidently at dawn, and with just about the same degree of reasoning behind it. Typing the word "history" is meanwhile an example of chicken-scratching. Your resort to it I will take as a concession that no, there was no actual analysis at all underlying your original claim.
 
The **** crows as confidently at dawn, and with just about the same degree of reasoning behind it. Typing the word "history" is meanwhile an example of chicken-scratching. Your resort to it I will take as a concession that no, there was no actual analysis at all underlying your original claim.


Wonderful!

I've stated my position with as much knowledge as anyone else has on this monstrosity of a bill. But evidently you took Nancy Pelosi's advice and read the WHOLE thing, after it was passed, and thus have more info to refute. Let's hear, from your indepth knowledge, how do we pay for the EXTRAS, i.e., doctors, nurses, hospitals, techs, more and new medicines, equipment, etc.

I'll tell you who I think is going to pay via a NEW AND IMPROVED TAX - the MIDDLE CLASS. I don't want to break that glowing bubble of the "rich can pick up the tab", but they can't.
 
And "costs", IMO are going to go up-up-up for MORE services, people, equipment, medicine/medical R&D, and everything else that goes in the the medical system.
One of the chief reasons to flee to the haven of health care reform is that costs without such reform have been increasing uncontrolably and will simply continue to do. It is the ALTERNATIVE to health care reform that is characterized by wildly soaring costs.

And the govt is broke.
Currency-issuing authorities can't go broke, and PPACA was better than deficit-neutral in any case.

We're living on IOUs now and when that happens guess who pays the bills? Yup the Middle Class.
Dude, when the US buys more from foreign economies than they buy from us, a pile of US dollars moves into the international economy. Foreigners can use those dollars to buy stuff from the US or from other economies that take US dollars in payment, but at the end of the day, that trade deficit means that there are dollars still out there that people don't have an alternate use for. So they come crawling to the US Treasury, begging to invest in our securities and hoping to be paid a little bit of interest for it over time. The idea that the US is somehow "living on IOU's" is a notion that is totally divorced from reality.
 
One of the chief reasons to flee to the haven of health care reform is that costs without such reform have been increasing uncontrolably and will simply continue to do. It is the ALTERNATIVE to health care reform that is characterized by wildly soaring costs.


Currency-issuing authorities can't go broke, and PPACA was better than deficit-neutral in any case.


Dude, when the US buys more from foreign economies than they buy from us, a pile of US dollars moves into the international economy. Foreigners can use those dollars to buy stuff from the US or from other economies that take US dollars in payment, but at the end of the day, that trade deficit means that there are dollars still out there that people don't have an alternate use for. So they come crawling to the US Treasury, begging to invest in our securities and hoping to be paid a little bit of interest for it over time. The idea that the US is somehow "living on IOU's" is a notion that is totally divorced from reality.



Dude, the middle class will pick up the tab. I realize that "printing money" sounds like a good plan, but eventually you've gotta pay your bills or what happens?
 
What victim? Who puts that extra Big Burger in your hand? Who puts those drugs between your lips or in your arm? Those are personal choices by the "victim". So the victim needs to look in the mirror and they'll see who is making them the "victim".
Take a look around. This recently invented obesity meme is a fraud. The whole world is getting fatter, and a principal reason for that is the spread of the "western diet", characterized as it is by the highly refined, nutrient-hollow, oversalted, fat- and calorie-laden foodstuffs produced and promoted by a giant, for-profit, agribusiness industry. Consumers can only buy what is available on the shelves, and that ain't what it used to be.

As for drugs, the ones that do by far the most damage are the ones mis-prescribed and mal-administered by an out of control, for-profit health care system. Drugs of choice -- including anabolic steroids, by the way -- do no harm at all in comparison.

Part of the job of the propagandists hired by the people who make all the profits from these profit-driven systems is to come up with phony reasons to blame the people being hurt by them for their own injuries. Rapists used to try that sort of blame-the-victim thing back in the day, but we don't let them get way with that anymore. Some people need to make the same kind of progress in a few other areas.
 
Take a look around. This recently invented obesity meme is a fraud. The whole world is getting fatter, and a principal reason for that is the spread of the "western diet", characterized as it is by the highly refined, nutrient-hollow, oversalted, fat- and calorie-laden foodstuffs produced and promoted by a giant, for-profit, agribusiness industry. Consumers can only buy what is available on the shelves, and that ain't what it used to be.

As for drugs, the ones that do by far the most damage are the ones mis-prescribed and mal-administered by an out of control, for-profit health care system. Drugs of choice -- including anabolic steroids, by the way -- do no harm at all in comparison.

Part of the job of the propagandists hired by the people who make all the profits from these profit-driven systems is to come up with phony reasons to blame the people being hurt by them for their own injuries. Rapists used to try that sort of blame-the-victim thing back in the day, but we don't let them get way with that anymore. Some people need to make the same kind of progress in a few other areas.



Here's a plan for over-eaters. Stop eating fatting food. The fastest and best way to lose weight and EVERYONE KNOWS THIS AS A FACT.
 
Take a look around. This recently invented obesity meme is a fraud. The whole world is getting fatter, and a principal reason for that is the spread of the "western diet", characterized as it is by the highly refined, nutrient-hollow, oversalted, fat- and calorie-laden foodstuffs produced and promoted by a giant, for-profit, agribusiness industry. Consumers can only buy what is available on the shelves, and that ain't what it used to be.

As for drugs, the ones that do by far the most damage are the ones mis-prescribed and mal-administered by an out of control, for-profit health care system. Drugs of choice -- including anabolic steroids, by the way -- do no harm at all in comparison.

Part of the job of the propagandists hired by the people who make all the profits from these profit-driven systems is to come up with phony reasons to blame the people being hurt by them for their own injuries. Rapists used to try that sort of blame-the-victim thing back in the day, but we don't let them get way with that anymore. Some people need to make the same kind of progress in a few other areas.

Actually the good stuff is still available it just has to be prepared and cooked, the junk food is just nuked and eaten, being lazy/impatient most people go for the quick to eat stuff. I still make my own bread on occasion, cause I like how it makes the whole place smell good and freash bread is better than anything you'll get out of the supermarket, but it takes about 2hrs to make (yeah lots of sitting around waiting for dough to rise, but still 2hrs) Made cinnamon rolls the other day with my daughter for the 1st time (yeah kinda junk food as well) took 2hrs as opposed to 15 mins for the ready to bake stuff, but all natural ingredients. Would I do that all the time? nope too busy but I do on occasion. I know many people who have no clue how to cook/bake only how to microwave or place in oven. It really is more a question of ease and convience than lack of access.

Drugs are always a problem area I don't see any way that's gonna get better anytime soon.
Blame the victim will always be used, it is a tactic not a "good" one but occasionally effective and often the only one available, when the choice is admit guilt or blame another what do you think is gonna happen?
 
Wonderful! I've stated my position with as much knowledge as anyone else has on this monstrosity of a bill.
No, you rather clearly haven't.

But evidently you took Nancy Pelosi's advice and read the WHOLE thing, after it was passed...
See, what Pelosi was talking about was the wild-eyed screamers of the right-wing creating such an astroturfed din over imaginary socialism, death panels, and government takeovers, that there was no room left for a calm and rational debate or discussion of what was actually in the bill. I guess you missed that along with so much else.

...and thus have more info to refute. Let's hear, from your indepth knowledge, how do we pay for the EXTRAS, i.e., doctors, nurses, hospitals, techs, more and new medicines, equipment, etc.
Do you know what drug and medical device manufacturers agreed to in signing up to support the bill? Doctors and hospitals? Other stakeholders? It doesn't seem so. Do you know about how much annual revenue up to 30 million new insurance policies will bring to the system? Can you estimate the savings that will come from so many fewer people being forced to rely on 911 and the ER as their primary health care plan? It doesn't appear that even these concepts, much less the numbers associated with them, have ever entered your thinking.

I'll tell you who I think is going to pay via a NEW AND IMPROVED TAX - the MIDDLE CLASS. I don't want to break that glowing bubble of the "rich can pick up the tab", but they can't.
The rich are already helping out, what with that new 3.8% Medicare surcharge on uneaned income and raising the Schedule-A floor for medical expenses from 7.5% to 10%. And what with all the money they've been siphoning off for themselves since 2000 or so, there is still plenty more that they can and will be asked to do.
 
No, you rather clearly haven't.


See, what Pelosi was talking about was the wild-eyed screamers of the right-wing creating such an astroturfed din over imaginary socialism, death panels, and government takeovers, that there was no room left for a calm and rational debate or discussion of what was actually in the bill. I guess you missed that along with so much else.


Do you know what drug and medical device manufacturers agreed to in signing up to support the bill? Doctors and hospitals? Other stakeholders? It doesn't seem so. Do you know about how much annual revenue up to 30 million new insurance policies will bring to the system? Can you estimate the savings that will come from so many fewer people being forced to rely on 911 and the ER as their primary health care plan? It doesn't appear that even these concepts, much less the numbers associated with them, have ever entered your thinking.


The rich are already helping out, what with that new 3.8% Medicare surcharge on uneaned income and raising the Schedule-A floor for medical expenses from 7.5% to 10%. And what with all the money they've been siphoning off for themselves since 2000 or so, there is still plenty more that they can and will be asked to do.



We will all foot the bill. It's a TAX.
 
Dude, the middle class will pick up the tab. I realize that "printing money" sounds like a good plan, but eventually you've gotta pay your bills or what happens?
Come on. We've been carrying significant public debt since 1836. We have added to it significantly during times of national crisis and whenever someone named Reagan or Bush was President. The notion of one day having to pay off your bills is household-level thinking. It is not applicable at the level of national governments. Neither we nor anybody else has any plan ever to do anything but service the national debt. We will never repay it. It's as simple as that.
 
Here's a plan for over-eaters. Stop eating fatting food. The fastest and best way to lose weight and EVERYONE KNOWS THIS AS A FACT.
Your credentials as a nutritionist aren't any better than those as an historian or economist. The problem -- rather plainly -- isn't about weight-loss at all, but about how to avoid weight-gain in a world increasingly dominated by foods that promote and over time guaranty weight-gain.
 
Your credentials as a nutritionist aren't any better than those as an historian or economist. The problem -- rather plainly -- isn't about weight-loss at all, but about how to avoid weight-gain in a world increasingly dominated by foods that promote and over time guaranty weight-gain.

Didn't claim to any credentials. Just know that all the fat folks walking around don't have medical conditions. They just plain old eat fatty foods. The way to cure that "problem" is to stop eating fatty foods. I guess that is confusing because it is such a simple solution. But there are times when simplicity is really the way to go.
 
Actually the good stuff is still available it just has to be prepared and cooked, the junk food is just nuked and eaten, being lazy/impatient most people go for the quick to eat stuff. I still make my own bread on occasion, cause I like how it makes the whole place smell good and freash bread is better than anything you'll get out of the supermarket, but it takes about 2hrs to make (yeah lots of sitting around waiting for dough to rise, but still 2hrs) Made cinnamon rolls the other day with my daughter for the 1st time (yeah kinda junk food as well) took 2hrs as opposed to 15 mins for the ready to bake stuff, but all natural ingredients. Would I do that all the time? nope too busy but I do on occasion. I know many people who have no clue how to cook/bake only how to microwave or place in oven. It really is more a question of ease and convience than lack of access.
So even with a luxury of time that most people simply don't have available, you are able to prepare perhaps 5% (?) of the sometimes fattening anyway foods that you eat from scratch using all these wholesome natural ingredients? That's all well and good, but it doesn't really get you off the train.

Blame the victim will always be used, it is a tactic not a "good" one but occasionally effective and often the only one available, when the choice is admit guilt or blame another...
Hmmm. Avoidance by some of self-criticism implied under reality-based thinking, then.
 
We will all foot the bill. It's a TAX.
It's a long overdue reform of a crippled and increasingly dysfunctional system, a reform that includes new taxes, new tax credits, and new subsidies, but which is a priori deficit-neutral, thereby not adding to net taxes or to the net need for taxes.
 
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