• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

People say they're moving to Canada because of Obamacare

Costs have to be controlled, but price controls by government dictate have a poor track record so far.
Price-Gouging by Doctors and Hospitals : HEALTH REFORM WATCH

When patients are not protected by large private or public insurers, doctors and hospitals charge them astonishingly more than patients with Medicare or managed-care insurance. Some price difference would make sense, because insurers offer providers large volume and economies of scale. But we are not talking about discounts of 10, or 20, or even 30 percent. Providers routinely double, triple, or even quadruple prices for unprotected patients. Such huge mark-ups can only be regarded as price-gouging — exploiting market power to charge prices virtually unrelated to actual cost or market value.
A comprehensive analysis of data hospitals report to Medicare shows that, on average, hospitals charge uninsured patients two-and-a-half times more than they charge insured patients and three times more than their actual costs. In some states mark-ups average four-fold.


Some type of regulatory controls must be enforced if we are all to pay our own way.
 
Since even you know that the US system is changing, then even you must admit that you won't be sticking with the US system (as it is now)


Oh, I think changes are coming, but I'll wait until all the issues are settled, before saying what I'll have to do.

I do like the HC I have now and don't want to see it go away. So I will vote accordingly.
 
Of course our current HC system will change. The question will be how much?

Eventually, quite a lot. The bottom line is, we can't continue to spend 17% of the GDP on health care, particularly when the costs keep growing faster than the rate of inflation. We simply can't afford the current system.
 
Price-Gouging by Doctors and Hospitals : HEALTH REFORM WATCH

When patients are not protected by large private or public insurers, doctors and hospitals charge them astonishingly more than patients with Medicare or managed-care insurance. Some price difference would make sense, because insurers offer providers large volume and economies of scale. But we are not talking about discounts of 10, or 20, or even 30 percent. Providers routinely double, triple, or even quadruple prices for unprotected patients. Such huge mark-ups can only be regarded as price-gouging — exploiting market power to charge prices virtually unrelated to actual cost or market value.
A comprehensive analysis of data hospitals report to Medicare shows that, on average, hospitals charge uninsured patients two-and-a-half times more than they charge insured patients and three times more than their actual costs. In some states mark-ups average four-fold.


Some type of regulatory controls must be enforced if we are all to pay our own way.

That's accurate. I've seen the Explanation of Medical benefits (EOMB) forms from doctors, and yes, they charge three times and more what they expect to get from the insurance company. One reason they do this is that there is a real chance that they won't wind up collecting anything at all.

So, if that practice is outlawed, does that mean it will stop? I doubt it. I think they will come up with a way around the law.
 
I realize that some read only what they want to read, but I did allow as how Dittohead might be right. You should have read further on in the posts, especially my post 229. I said that Canadians might want to stay in Canada and use their HC system and quoted an article the president of the Canadian Medical Association which stated:

Canadians contrast their health care to U.S.'s - Washington Times

"Nevertheless, the demands on the system have led to waiting lists for treatments such as MRI scans, cataract and artery bypass surgeries and hip replacements.

That’s one reason why 70 percent of Canadians have some form of supplemental health insurance, whether or not they plan to visit the United States.

The Canadian system needs fixing, said Dr. Robert Ouellet, president of the Canadian Medical Association.

“We have improved waiting times from years to months in most areas, but people still wait too long even in emergency rooms,” he said."


So this tells me that the "regular" Canadian HC system isn't sufficient. In order to get immediate or elective medical services Canadians BUY "additional" HC policies to cover their visits to the US or private Canadian doctors. I had a family member that lived in Engalnd who tried to us their HC system and found it difficult, so they paid "for a private doctor" to obtain the same type services they enjoyed in America.

If this sounds like a deal to you, sign up and be happy. I like seeing my doctor while I'm ill or before I die of my illiness.

But really, why should we care about Canada's health care system? Are you from Canada? the ACA is not the same as Canada's, FYI.
 
They are in for a big surprise because Canada's healthcare system has unbelievable waits for care.

Why do people continue to make this unsubstantiated assertions; largely parroting something they heard elsewhere. Its called rumor spreading....

Health care in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First, Canada has a public option.... many in Canada carry private insurance and see private Doctors. You do not have to use the Health Canada system, but its there for you. 57% of Canadians say they are very happy with their healthcare; compared to 25% of Americans. I can attest, having been very involved in the acquisition of four companies in Canada, that the Canadians are generally very happy with their healthcare.... they often expressed sympathies to us about how bad the American system was (their rumor)......

Canada Health Act: Why Uninsured Americans Are Moving - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

We have one of the most expensive, least efficient healthcare systems in the world (about 30th in the world in life expectancy and infant mortality, which given about 30-40 first world countries, puts us as the bottom, yet our healthcare costs to GDP, at about 17%, are the highest in the world). We should all be embarrassed about it....
 

Attachments

  • Life_expectancy_vs_spending_OECD.jpg
    Life_expectancy_vs_spending_OECD.jpg
    7.1 KB · Views: 30
Why do people continue to make this unsubstantiated assertions; largely parroting something they heard elsewhere. Its called rumor spreading....

Health care in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First, Canada has a public option.... many in Canada carry private insurance and see private Doctors. You do not have to use the Health Canada system, but its there for you. 57% of Canadians say they are very happy with their healthcare; compared to 25% of Americans. I can attest, having been very involved in the acquisition of four companies in Canada, that the Canadians are generally very happy with their healthcare.... they often expressed sympathies to us about how bad the American system was (their rumor)......

Canada Health Act: Why Uninsured Americans Are Moving - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

We have one of the most expensive, least efficient healthcare systems in the world (about 30th in the world in life expectancy and infant mortality, which given about 30-40 first world countries, puts us as the bottom, yet our healthcare costs to GDP, at about 17%, are the highest in the world). We should all be embarrassed about it....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

Studies have come to different conclusions about the result of this disparity in spending. A 2007 review of all studies comparing health outcomes in Canada and the US in a Canadian peer-reviewed medical journal found that "health outcomes may be superior in patients cared for in Canada versus the United States, but differences are not consistent."[7] Life expectancy is longer in Canada, and its infant mortality rate is lower than that of the U.S., but there is debate about the underlying causes of these differences.
The United States and Canada have different racial makeups as well as different obesity and alcoholism rates, which would likely cause the US to have a shorter average life expectancy and higher infant mortality even with equal health care provided. The US population is 12.2% "Blacks" and 16.3% "Hispanics" (2010 Census), whereas Canada has only 2.5% African Canadians and 0.97% Hispanic Canadians (2006 Census). Blacks have higher mortality rates than any other racial or ethnic group for eight of the top ten causes of death.[8] The cancer incidence rate among African Americans is 10% higher than among European Americans.[9] U.S. Latinos have higher rates of death from diabetes, liver disease, and infectious diseases than do non-Latinos.[10] Adult African Americans and Latinos have approximately twice the risk as European Americans of developing diabetes.[9] The infant mortality rates for African Americans is twice that of whites.[11] Unfortunately, directly comparing infant mortality rates between countries is difficult, as countries have different definitions of what qualifies as an infant death. The death of an infant of an American visiting Canada is not counted as an infant death by Canada, however the successful delivery of an infant of a Canadian who is visiting the US is counted as a successful live birth by Canada, although the birth occurred outside of their country


World Health Organization ranking of health systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Canada ranks 30th and the US ranks 37th out of 190 countries. And all of the countries above us, have significantly smaller populations. Canada ranks as 10th in expenditure Per Capita


But then WHO has its critics: The WHO rankings have been subject to much criticism concerning their methodology, scientificity, and usefulness. Dr Richard G. Fessler called the rankings "misleading" and said that tens of thousands of foreigners travel to the United States every year for care. In addition, he claims that the United States leads the world in survival rates for 13 of the 16 most common types of cancer. He also noted that the financial fairness measure was automatically designed to "make countries that rely on free market incentives look inferior".[3] Dr Philip Musgrove wrote that the rankings are meaningless because they oversimplify: "numbers confer a spurious precision".[4]

Journalist John Stossel notes that the use of life expectancy figures is misleading and the life expectancy in the United States is held down by homicides, accidents, poor diet, and lack of exercise. When controlled for these facts, Stossel claims that American life expectancy is actually one of the highest in the world.[5] A publication by the Pacific Research Institute in 2006 claims to have found that Americans outlive people in every other Western country, when controlled for homicides and car accidents.[6] Stossel also criticizes the ranking for favoring socialized healthcare, noting that "a country with high-quality care overall but 'unequal distribution' would rank below a country with lower quality care but equal distribution."[5]

Glen Whitman claims that "it looks an awful lot like someone cherry-picked the results to make the U.S.'s relative performance look worse than it is." He also notes that the rankings favor countries where individuals or families spend little of their income directly on health care.[7] In an article in The American Spectator, Whitman notes how the rankings favor government intervention, which has nothing to do with quality of care. The rankings assume literacy rate is indicative of healthcare, but ignore many factors, such as tobacco use, nutrition, and luck. Regarding the distribution factors, Whitman says "neither measures healthcare performance" since a "healthcare system [can be] characterized by both extensive inequality and good care for everyone." If healthcare improves for one group, but remains the same for the rest of the population, that would mean an increase in inequality, despite there being an improvement in quality.[8] Dr Fessler echoed these sentiments.[3]


So should the US really be embarrassed, I guess we need a unbiased source to know that for sure.
 
Last edited:
Good post. A couple of points

Comparison of the health care systems in Canada and the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Studies have come to different conclusions about the result of this disparity in spending. A 2007 review of all studies comparing health outcomes in Canada and the US in a Canadian peer-reviewed medical journal found that "health outcomes may be superior in patients cared for in Canada versus the United States, but differences are not consistent."[7] Life expectancy is longer in Canada, and its infant mortality rate is lower than that of the U.S., but there is debate about the underlying causes of these differences.
The United States and Canada have different racial makeups as well as different obesity and alcoholism rates, which would likely cause the US to have a shorter average life expectancy and higher infant mortality even with equal health care provided.


Obesity and alcoholism are health care issues. If we aren't handling those issues as well as others, then that's a deficiency with out health care system

The US population is 12.2% "Blacks" and 16.3% "Hispanics" (2010 Census), whereas Canada has only 2.5% African Canadians and 0.97% Hispanic Canadians (2006 Census). Blacks have higher mortality rates than any other racial or ethnic group for eight of the top ten causes of death.[8] The cancer incidence rate among African Americans is 10% higher than among European Americans.[9] U.S. Latinos have higher rates of death from diabetes, liver disease, and infectious diseases than do non-Latinos.[10] Adult African Americans and Latinos have approximately twice the risk as European Americans of developing diabetes.[9] The infant mortality rates for African Americans is twice that of whites.[11] Unfortunately, directly comparing infant mortality rates between countries is difficult, as countries have different definitions of what qualifies as an infant death. The death of an infant of an American visiting Canada is not counted as an infant death by Canada, however the successful delivery of an infant of a Canadian who is visiting the US is counted as a successful live birth by Canada, although the birth occurred outside of their country

Like obesity and alcoholism, mortality rates, cancer rates, etc and racial disparities in health care are health care issues. If we are handling these issues poorly, then that's a deficiency in our health care system


World Health Organization ranking of health systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Canada ranks 30th and the US ranks 37th out of 190 countries. And all of the countries above us, have significantly smaller populations. Canada ranks as 10th in expenditure Per Capita

IIRC, we're the 3rd largest nation in the world by population and the two larger ones (China and India) are relatively poor so of course the nations above us are going to have significantly smaller populations



Journalist John Stossel notes that the use of life expectancy figures is misleading and the life expectancy in the United States is held down by homicides, accidents, poor diet, and lack of exercise. When controlled for these facts, Stossel claims that American life expectancy is actually one of the highest in the world.[5] A publication by the Pacific Research Institute in 2006 claims to have found that Americans outlive people in every other Western country, when controlled for homicides and car accidents.[6] Stossel also criticizes the ranking for favoring socialized healthcare, noting that "a country with high-quality care overall but 'unequal distribution' would rank below a country with lower quality care but equal distribution."[5]

Homicides, poor diet, and lack of exercise are health care issues.
 
Good post. A couple of points



Obesity and alcoholism are health care issues. If we aren't handling those issues as well as others, then that's a deficiency with out health care system



Like obesity and alcoholism, mortality rates, cancer rates, etc and racial disparities in health care are health care issues. If we are handling these issues poorly, then that's a deficiency in our health care system




IIRC, we're the 3rd largest nation in the world by population and the two larger ones (China and India) are relatively poor so of course the nations above us are going to have significantly smaller populations





Homicides, poor diet, and lack of exercise are health care issues.
My point was not to make excuses for why America is not viewed as number one in healthcare world wide. I just think that making healthcare an competition sport between countries really devalues the fact that we do have good medical care in the US. Is it perfect? Hell no. But we do not need to mimic other countries to make the needed improvements. We can do things better if we do not mimic, since mimicking will only get us as far as those that we would be mimicking.

I think that we should strive to do better than any other country rather than copy them. Which is the philosophy that has driven this country for its entire life, why stop now?
 
Last edited:
My point was not to make excuses for why America is not viewed as number one in healthcare world wide. I just think that making healthcare an competition sport between countries really devalues the fact that we do have good medical care in the US. Is it perfect? Hell no. But we do not need to mimic other countries to make the needed improvements. We can do things better if we do not mimic, since mimicking will only get us as far as those that we would be mimicking.

I think that we should strive to do better than any other country rather than copy them. Which is the philosophy that has driven this country for its entire life, why stop now?


I agree with what you said and my post wasn't meant to challenge what you said. It just used your post, which I liked, as a starting point for discussion
 
I agree with what you said and my post wasn't meant to challenge what you said. It just used your post, which I liked, as a starting point for discussion

I didnt take it as a challenge. But considering your comment and my lack of commentary I thought I should clarify myself, or at least try to add some relevance.

Obesity and alcoholism while they lead to major health issues, become difficult for any healthcare system to deal with. The reason being is that a certain amount of liberty allows for obesity and alcoholism to exist. And also considering that both are diverse compounded issues that also can involve the judicial system and genetics and perhaps even social/cultural, it becomes even more difficult to truly say that they are both healthcare issues. Not saying though that education could not be upped.

As far as different death rates and disease rates between the races, I would need to research more to understand whether it is racial discrimination or genetics that have caused the differences. Most likely though I can guess that its between both. Either way improvements are warranted.

Homicides, poor diet, and lack of exercise again are compounded issues. Social and cultural elements can be a big influence, again education is probably all that is really going to be effective in battling such things. Although metal disorders can be addressed by the healthcare system. Personally I think that the entire world lacks sufficient mental health care. I say that because of the different trends that become popular and that many different people have conflicting ideas in what works. The problem though is actually that most people would refuse any psychiatric help, because of the stigma of seeing a shrink implies. Im not crazy. Perhaps not, but there maybe some physical reason why you are so angry or why you eat five happy meals a day.

But the biggest difficulty that i see with improving our healthcare system is partisan politics. One side says this the other side says this, but neither realize that they are both the problem with our healthcare system. The healthcare system debate has become a whipping post for the Republican's and Democrat's to push out their chests and declare that their ideology is the most moral and ethical thing in the world. In reality one side wants us to mimic so so healthcare systems while the other wishes to just continue as we were. Obliviously we need some fresh innovative ideas, unfortunately I dont really have any. But that doesnt mean that through discussions like this one that we cannot come up with any new fresh innovative ideas.
 
yeah you guys think were all nice an polite up here, I got news for you

Reasons to Fear Canada

* Ninety percent of population is massed within 100 miles of northern American border.

* Seems not to mind that one of its provinces has turned almost entirely French.

* Excessive politeness only makes sense as cover for something truly sinister. But what?

* Citizens seem strangely impervious to cold.

* Decriminalization of marijuana and acceptance of gay marriage without corresponding collapse of social institutions indicate Canada may, in fact, be indestructible.

* Has infiltrated entertainment industry with singers, actors, and comedians practically indistinguishable from their American counterparts.
[And yes, that would include Celine Dion - TH]

* Consistently stays just below cultural radar yet never quite disappears.

* Parliamentary government and common-law judiciary appear to function acceptably yet remain completely inscrutable.

* Never had a "disco phase."

* Seemingly endless supply of timber, donuts, and Scotch-plaid hats with earflaps.

* Keeps insisting it "has no designs on America" and "only wants peace."

* Plays a mean game of pond hockey.
 
Eventually, quite a lot. The bottom line is, we can't continue to spend 17% of the GDP on health care, particularly when the costs keep growing faster than the rate of inflation. We simply can't afford the current system.


Not to worry, the TAX to pay for Obamacare is just around the corner.
 
Not to worry, the TAX to pay for Obamacare is just around the corner.

What makes you think the feds won't just keep printing more money? Tax increases, like spending cuts, are unpopular.

Did you know that the overall cost of health care in Taiwan is the same as the cost for Medicare alone in the USA?
 
What makes you think the feds won't just keep printing more money? Tax increases, like spending cuts, are unpopular.

Did you know that the overall cost of health care in Taiwan is the same as the cost for Medicare alone in the USA?


Ditto, first of all the total population in taiwan as of 2012 is 23million...with only 10.5% 65 or over....Florida has over 19 million people and a HELLUVA lot more 65 and older than taiwan and thats just one STATE...seems to me based on those numbers they spend alot more per person in health care than we do...
 
What makes you think the feds won't just keep printing more money? Tax increases, like spending cuts, are unpopular.

Did you know that the overall cost of health care in Taiwan is the same as the cost for Medicare alone in the USA?



The only way we can afford to add 30 Million more people to the HC system is to TAX the middle class. The "rich" can't pay for this. It can't happen any other way, IMO.

The system will need more doctors, more nurses, more hospitals, more techs, etc. Who is going to pay for these folks education? Who's going to pay for all the equipment needed? $65 to $650 more per person, if "they" can even pay this, will not pay these "mores" we will need to handle this.

I'm set for the TAX INCREASE, just waiting for them to figure out how much.
 
Not to worry, the TAX to pay for Obamacare is just around the corner.
Yeah, so do the subsidies and credits. And here is a quick list of the major tax increases in PPACA. No, the tanning salon tax doesn't make the list...

Broaden the Medicare tax base for high-income taxpayers
Charge of an annual fee on health insurance providers
Impose a 40% excise tax on health insurance policies which cost more than $27,500 for a family
Impose an annual fee on manufacturers and importers of branded drugs
Impose a 2.3% excise tax on manufacturers and importers of certain medical devices
Raise the 7.5% Adjusted Gross Income floor on medical expenses deduction to 10%
Limit annual contributions to flexible spending arrangements in cafeteria plans to $2,500

So which of those do you expect to be clobbered by?
 
Ditto, first of all the total population in taiwan as of 2012 is 23million...with only 10.5% 65 or over....Florida has over 19 million people and a HELLUVA lot more 65 and older than taiwan and thats just one STATE...seems to me based on those numbers they spend alot more per person in health care than we do...


This was obvious, just like Canada. They just don't have the numbers like the US.
 
Yeah, so do the subsidies and credits. And here is a quick list of the major tax increases in PPACA. No, the tanning salon tax doesn't make the list...

Broaden the Medicare tax base for high-income taxpayers
Charge of an annual fee on health insurance providers
Impose a 40% excise tax on health insurance policies which cost more than $27,500 for a family
Impose an annual fee on manufacturers and importers of branded drugs
Impose a 2.3% excise tax on manufacturers and importers of certain medical devices
Raise the 7.5% Adjusted Gross Income floor on medical expenses deduction to 10%
Limit annual contributions to flexible spending arrangements in cafeteria plans to $2,500

So which of those do you expect to be clobbered by?



Say whatever you want, but the other shoe, a.k.a TAX, is going to come down and come down hard. It can't work without the MIDDLE CLASS being TAXed

ED.
 
The only way we can afford to add 30 Million more people to the HC system is to TAX the middle class.

Correction - the only way YOU CAN THINK OF is to increase taxes. Some of us are more creative

Reduce health care costs by

1) reducing the use of emergency rooms for non-emergency problems
2) prevention
3) reduce govt subsidies to health insurance corps
4) increased use of technology to increase productivity in health care
5) changing the patent laws concerning pharmaceuticals
 
Correction - the only way YOU CAN THINK OF is to increase taxes. Some of us are more creative

Reduce health care costs by

1) reducing the use of emergency rooms for non-emergency problems
2) prevention
3) reduce govt subsidies to health insurance corps
4) increased use of technology to increase productivity in health care
5) changing the patent laws concerning pharmaceuticals


Good for you. But I'm not buying into the fantasy. We will see a TAX increase to pay for this bill.
 
Like obesity and alcoholism, mortality rates, cancer rates, etc and racial disparities in health care are health care issues. If we are handling these issues poorly, then that's a deficiency in our health care system.
Yeah, people try to blame our sad-sack numbers on all the diversity and minorities around here. As if they don't understand that these people are way overrepresented among the unemployed and therefore among the uninsured, meaning that they don't have and can't afford access to even minimal standards of care. That's a freaking problem with the system, not with these people.

If you wanted to use just one statistic to sum up how bad the US health care system actually is, it would be the fact that for years we have been the worst rated developed country in terms of amenable deaths. Those are deaths that we know how to prevent. It's not a mystery. All that's necessary is that the patient receive the appropriate care in a timely manner. We can't seem to manage that.
 
Back
Top Bottom