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New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police

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Doesnt get bigger than mine and IVE NEVER heard of a raid on the wrong place being carried out INTENTIONALLY
Read the link TD posted to me, it was BATF so it was federal not local. But there was obvious intent to do wrong by those agents to anyone who reads it.
 
Don't see the problem with a law the reaffirms an Amendment.


Unless it does not and contorts the meaning and spirit of the letter of the law. No where in the forth amendment does it say, "A person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary".

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."~ 4th Amendment
 
If some punk is running from the cops and tried to seek refuge in my home, 1. I'm going to kill him, 2. I want the cops there asap because I have a criminal in my home, and 3. the punk should want the cops there asap also because I'm going to kill him.

I'm not going to shoot the cops. I'm going to open the door, flag the cops down and serve them coffee while we wait for the coroner.


The tough guy talk is humorous.

If a punk running from the police ran into my home I'd throw him to the floor and tell him he was under arrest, then given him my version of Miranda. "Shut up, don't move and no one gets hurt." Then again I can arrest people. I go well out of my way with deliberate effort not to kill or even seriously hurt anyone for the last few years and certainly since putting on a badge. Prior I hurt a lot of people. In general, I go to great lengths not to even write tickets, let alone arrest anyone.
 
I would have to be pushed very, very far in order to ever draw a gun on a cop. I can't even express the dire circumstances that would have to exist.

I think your average gun owner is a reasonable person, and I think that if anyone came here and started spouting off about rights and big government, that they're just playing silly debate games and venting their daily frustrations though this thread. 99% of the time people just say things to either feel better or to get a rise out of you. No law-abiding citizen is going to shoot a cop for sticking their head in a car window, or for trespassing. I think your typical gun owner is like me and would even knowingly allow a cop to commit some level of crime against them and then call their lawyer afterwords, instead of pull a gun on the cop at the time, even if the citizen were well within their rights to do so.

The other side of that coin is the rare bad apple who abuses his authority as a police officer to commit crime. This is an extreme minority among police, and even among those rare few who would ever abuse their authority, fewer actually do, and of those, fewer still do anything which would warrant lethal force. I would be very surprised if this law applies to even 1 incident in the next 10 years.


There are bad cops and I've had a few confrontations with a few with myself as an officer. Prior to this, I was extremely docile towards police as they poised great risk and their attitude of me mattered greatly on an individual level. I was detained, questioned and arrested many a time for the topics of assault or aggravated assault (but never with a weapon). It was rarely a question of what I had done being legal, only how much I had done it. That is very abstract in law as it involves the word "reasonable." What is that? Its up to the officers (or DA) to decide what was "reasonable force." Never taken to trial and no convictions.

What a person may or may not do in relation to a bad cop is very problematical if violence or weapons become involved. If SWAT comes charging into your house even in total error such as wrong address, there is no good outcome possible for whoever is in that house.

I recall a case, I think years ago, when a small SWAT team went charging into a C-store believing a robber was in there. The clerk, an older woman, only saw men with guns and in black outfits come running towards and then into the store, for which she grabbed a large caliber revolver under the counter and open fired, killing one of the SWAT team. She said she had no idea they were cops and thought they were radicals charging in to rob her and probably kill her. No charges were filled against her.

Personally, while a SWAT team should have full protective gear, the black and other para-military Ninja-type clothing needs to be prohibited. They don't look like cops. They look like terrorists.
 
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They don't look like cops. They look like terrorists.
Terrorists don't wear uniforms.

In fact, terrorists don't wear identifying clothing of any kind, apart from the light-blue burka.

Terrorists look just like everyone else.
 
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Why does this need to be put into law? Are cops just randomly breaking into people's houses or something? I find it ridiculous that we wasted money trying to codify every possible scenario no matter how rare its occurrence may be. Sure, people should have the right to defend themselves against unlawful entries even by police, however how often does that happen that a law needs to be made in order to make sure legal protections are given to citizens in such cases? It would seem that common sense from a judge would be enough to assess whether a citizen acted with a demeanour that wasn't malum in se.
 
Why does this need to be put into law? Are cops just randomly breaking into people's houses or something? I find it ridiculous that we wasted money trying to codify every possible scenario no matter how rare its occurrence may be. Sure, people should have the right to defend themselves against unlawful entries even by police, however how often does that happen that a law needs to be made in order to make sure legal protections are given to citizens in such cases? It would seem that common sense from a judge would be enough to assess whether a citizen acted with a demeanour that wasn't malum in se.

This is the new far right ideal...attack everything conventional so we can have total rule...see get rid of the police then the strong can prey untethered on the weak....the rich on the poor...thats why the rich hate any regulations it interferes with their raping the public
 
Terrorists don't wear uniforms.

In fact, terrorists don't wear identifying clothing of any kind, apart from the light-blue burka.

Terrorists look just like everyone else.
so terrorists are not able to purchase a uniform to disquise themselves or just haven't thought of that yet? seems to me that would be a GREAT NEW INVENTION of the terrorists then except they did it in dirty harry many years ago so it wouldn't be new. instead of just looking like everyone else they can now look like the leo's and get away with murder.
 
so terrorists are not able to purchase a uniform to disquise themselves or just haven't thought of that yet?

Well if that's your conspiracy theory, then you should know that whatever a swat team were to change their uniform to, a terrorist group could still buy from uscav, rangerjoes, gallsinc, acuarmy, or any military outfitter.

seems to me that would be a GREAT NEW INVENTION of the terrorists then except they did it in dirty harry many years ago so it wouldn't be new. instead of just looking like everyone else they can now look like the leo's and get away with murder.

You, personally, can buy any police uniform right now with a credit card. Any uniform. Whatever a swat team were to change their uniform to, any criminal group could still imitate.

Terrorists don't wear uniforms, that's why the Geneva convention doesn't apply to them. They don't carry their weapons openly, have an established command structure (they operate in cells) and they don't comply to "the norms of war", preferring gurrila tactics instead.
 
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Well if that's your conspiracy theory, then you should know that whatever a swat team were to change their uniform to, a terrorist group could still buy from uscav, rangerjoes, gallsinc, acuarmy, or any military outfitter.



You, personally, can buy any police uniform right now with a credit card. Any uniform. Whatever a swat team were to change their uniform to, any criminal group could still imitate.

Terrorists don't wear uniforms, that's why the Geneva convention doesn't apply to them. They don't carry their weapons openly, have an established command structure (they operate in cells) and they don't comply to "the norms of war", preferring gurrila tactics instead.

THAT is why I said I need to see a warrant and NOT a uniform, a uniform dosen't tell ME it's an leo who is illegaly busting down my door at 3am. Someone illegally busting down my door at 3am is going to get shot weather they are in uniform or not. I'll ask questions later if I survive. I do realize warrant's can be faked but someone presenting a warrant instead of illeagly busting down my door might stop the bullets from flying.
 
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They must be joking in Indiana :roll:


“Indiana has become the first state to legally allow residents to shoot at police if they feel their property is being illegally breached by an officer.”



New Indiana gun law allows residents to shoot police - National Coast to Coast Radio | Examiner.com

A while back here where I live, the police raided a home. They broke down the door and ran in like storm troopers. It turned out they had the wrong home and they actually killed the resident when the door they knocked down slammed into him. I'll bet he wishes he could have shot the bastards; a dead man, dead for no good reason other than the stupidity of public sector employees.

Police serve an important function, but in the end they are just government workers, and a lot of tham are arrogent a$$holes. They are no better than anyone else.
 
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A while back here where I live, the police raided a home. They broke down the door and ran in like storm troopers. It turned out they had the wrong home and the actually killed the resident when the door they knocked down slammed into him. I'll bet he wishes he could have shot the bastards; a dead man, dead for no good reason other than the stupidity of public sector employees.

Police serve an important function, but in the end they are just government workers, and a lot of tham are arrogent a$$holes. They are no better than anyone else.
this is why the police surround the house and VERY carefully approach the house with a warrant and inform anyone inside (BEFORE they bust down the door) that they have no hope of escape or any way of winning a fight with them and they should just open the door before it gets busted down. i do agree with you in that i have encountered many of those arrogent a$$holes you speak of but thats a whole thread of its own.
 
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THAT is why I said I need to see a warrant and NOT a uniform, a uniform dosen't tell ME it's an leo who is illegaly busting down my door at 3am. Someone illegally busting down my door at 3am is going to get shot weather they are in uniform or not. I'll ask questions later if I survive. I do realize warrant's can be faked but someone presenting a warrant instead of illeagly busting down my door might stop the bullets from flying.
I'm talking about Joko's post 126 regarding swat team's appearance.
 
I'm talking about Joko's post 126 regarding swat team's appearance.
sorry i am talking about the OP but my position still holds i need to see a warrant period.!!! a uniform breaking the law is no different than a terrorist in my book and should be delt with in the same manner.
 
A while back here where I live, the police raided a home. They broke down the door and ran in like storm troopers. It turned out they had the wrong home and they actually killed the resident when the door they knocked down slammed into him. I'll bet he wishes he could have shot the bastards; a dead man, dead for no good reason other than the stupidity of public sector employees.

Police serve an important function, but in the end they are just government workers, and a lot of tham are arrogent a$$holes. They are no better than anyone else.

this is why the police surround the house and VERY carefully approach the house with a warrant and inform anyone inside (BEFORE they bust down the door) that they have no hope of escape or any way of winning a fight with them and they should just open the door before it gets busted down. i do agree with you in that i have encountered many of those arrogent a$$holes you speak of but thats a whole thread of its own.

My point is this:
Most Americans are okay but some will rob or kill you and being able to shoot them if they try is okay.

Likewise,
Most cops are okay but some will rob or kill you and being able to shoot them if they try is okay.

Cops are people too. And yes, some will shake you down, take money from organized crime, etc.
 
sorry i am talking about the OP but my position still holds i need to see a warrant period.!!! a uniform breaking the law is no different than a terrorist in my book and should be delt with in the same manner.
Well good luck to you. Let me know where to send the flowers.

As I said earlier in this thread, the police can always expect my full cooperation. If a cop enters my home I'm automatically going to assume he's acting in good faith on something I'm not yet aware of. I always assume I don't know the whole story or have all the facts. If it turns out that the cop made an error, no big deal. Of course I'll expect damages paid for.

If I hear the door get kicked in, yeah, I'm going to reach, but the instant I see a badge my hands go in the air.
 
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Well good luck to you. Let me know where to send the flowers.
so do you believe in the oath you took to uphold the constitution? IF flowers are to be sent they will be sent to someone who is doing JUST THAT. so why are you defending someone who isn't upholding the constitution again?
 
Cops don't always need a warrant

Wrong, yes they do. Unless you give permission, yes they do. The 4th requires it.

And if they yell warrant and get shot and come to find out its for 123 Elm Street and you live at 125 Elm Street the warrant is invalid thus they have invaded your home illegally just like a robber.
 
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so do you believe in the oath you took to uphold the constitution? IF flowers are to be sent they will be sent to someone who is doing JUST THAT. so why are you defending someone who isn't upholding the constitution again?
The oath of enlistment is not a license be a vigilante. I do not have the authority to act without orders. If you feel military action is required, you're welcome to call the SD Governor and request an MP unit to your house.
 
Wrong, yes they do. Unless you give permission, yes they do. The 4th requires it.

Not if they're in 'hot persuit', which was exactly my example earlier in this thread:
Can the Police Search Your House Without a Warrant? | LegalZoom

4.
Exigent Circumstances. This exception refers to emergency situations where the process of getting a valid search warrant could compromise public safety or could lead to a loss of evidence. This encompasses instances of "hot pursuit" in which a suspect is about to escape. A recent California Supreme Court decision ruled that police may enter a DUI suspect's home without a warrant on the basis of the theory that important evidence, namely the suspect's blood alcohol level, may be lost otherwise.

My earlier real-life example was of a street thug running from the cops after beating someone to death. If a cop thought the thug had entered my home, that cop would have had the right, the authority, indeed the obligation to enter my home without a search warrant or my knowledge or consent, to pursue that thug.

And if they yell warrant and get shot and come to find out its for 123 Elm Street and you live at 125 Elm Street the warrant is invalid thus they have invaded your home illegally just like a robber.

According to the law this thread is about, the cop is still legally protected if they are acting in good faith. Essentially, the only way this law keeps you out of prison is if the cop is blatantly abusing his badge. His making a simple mistake doesn't cut it, you're still going to jail.
 
The oath of enlistment is not a license be a vigilante. I do not have the authority to act without orders. If you feel military action is required, you're welcome to call the SD Governor and request an MP unit to your house.

you took an oath to defend the constitution even from those who give you orders to do otherwise. it's been a long time since i took the oath but even though i no longer take orders i STILL maintain my oath. and will defend that to the death even still toady. vigialantees are ones who do not defend the constitution imo which i am not in that crowd.
 
Not if they're in 'hot persuit', which was exactly my example earlier in this thread:


My earlier real-life example was of a street thug running from the cops after beating someone to death. If a cop thought the thug had entered my home, that cop would have had the right, the authority, indeed the obligation to enter my home without a search warrant or my knowledge or consent, to pursue that thug.



According to the law this thread is about, the cop is still legally protected if they are acting in good faith. Essentially, the only way this law keeps you out of prison is if the cop is blatantly abusing his badge. His making a simple mistake doesn't cut it, you're still going to jail.
right you are but the citizen who is protecting their property is also legally protected if they are acting in good faith.
 
Why does this need to be put into law? Are cops just randomly breaking into people's houses or something? I find it ridiculous that we wasted money trying to codify every possible scenario no matter how rare its occurrence may be. Sure, people should have the right to defend themselves against unlawful entries even by police, however how often does that happen that a law needs to be made in order to make sure legal protections are given to citizens in such cases? It would seem that common sense from a judge would be enough to assess whether a citizen acted with a demeanour that wasn't malum in se.

Not if they're in 'hot persuit', which was exactly my example earlier in this thread:

My earlier real-life example was of a street thug running from the cops after beating someone to death. If a cop thought the thug had entered my home, that cop would have had the right, the authority, indeed the obligation to enter my home without a search warrant or my knowledge or consent, to pursue that thug.

According to the law this thread is about, the cop is still legally protected if they are acting in good faith. Essentially, the only way this law keeps you out of prison is if the cop is blatantly abusing his badge. His making a simple mistake doesn't cut it, you're still going to jail.

The legislature is squarely aimed at two issues:

1. Whether a person has the right to adjudge the legality of the police conduct during the "heat of the moment" of an event.

2. Whether a person can use force to resist what they deem is an unlawful arrest.

This statute is giving adjudication rights to public regarding police action thereby enlarging the “rights” provided by the 4th Amendment and other laws and giving approval for self help when dealing with an authority who has been empowered and commanded to preserve public safety.


The Courts say no, for obvious reasons including public safety and the fact that citizens already have protections and legal mechanisms at their disposal should there be an unlawful entry and/or arrest; self help is not one of those mechanisms.
 
Swi as hot pry suit is bull **** because you don't know what happen after I got home I could have been doing minute shots since you last saw me.
 
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