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Über Rich Renouncing U.S Citizenship as IRS Cracks Down on Tax Evaders [W:209]

lizzie said:
Hey man, I've seen more than one liberal on this site telling us (libertarians) to just leave if we don't like being taxed to death, so don't go on about how libertarians aren't playing nice boys and girls. The general attitude of libs on this site is that instead of controlling spending by government, and reigning in what is going to break us financially, WE shoud just leave. The problem with that attitude is that if those of us paying the bills were to all leave, this country wouldn't last 1 year.
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Truthfully, the amount of government that needs to be cut is beyond our current capacity to do so.
 
evanescence said:
Truthfully, the amount of government that needs to be cut is beyond our current capacity to do so.
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Which is why this country is going to eventually fall flat on its face. Problem is, we won't have someone like Germany to bail our asses out.
 
lizzie said:
Which is why this country is going to eventually fall flat on its face. Problem is, we won't have someone like Germany to bail our asses out.
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we have china.
 
Not only the super rich are double taxed on foreign income, but ordinary working/studying Americans too! Any ordinary working American who lives abroad and for example wants to join the pension scheme of his foreign employer knows the pain of having to think twice and pay for special accountants to figure what the VERY narrow ways are that the US lives open to avoid double taxation. I speculate that those renouncers are only about double taxation of their foreign income, after all, the statistics of Americans living abroad is dominated by marriage as a reason and not money.
 
Grant said:
Rock stars left the UK during the "British invasion" of pop music, largely due to ridiculously high taxes, and mostly to America's benefit. Now the Americans, apparently unaware and uninfluenced by history, are also encouraging their best, brightest and richest to leave.

We welcome them to Canada and I'm happy to see many of them settling in Costa Rica as well.

It's the governments who are the greedy pigs, by the way, with their faces in the trough, an inability to balance a budget, and a recklessness in spending that will eventually bring the country down to its knees.
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Yes, you're right, this is very serious. We should have given them more money during the bail outs and let them break more laws.

In seriousness, you could lower their taxes to 5% and if surcharges didn't cost them more they would still engage in tax evasion of any kind they could. That's what their profession psychologically conditions them to do; save and make money through nook and every crevice they can exploit.
 
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ARealConservative said:
love the irony.

libertarians aren't making tax policy in this country, but liberals certainly are.

And wealthy inventors are fleeing the utopian dream, preferring to renounce citizenship then partake in your vision, yet the libertarians are shooting ourselves in the foot according to you.

a person would struggle to think up this type of insanity, so thanks! it was a great laugh
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Fair point on who is making policy, but I was addressing the naivete and shortsightedness regarding philosophy, not actual policy.

The irony was great, wasn't it? ;)
 
Originally Posted by ARealConservative
love the irony.

libertarians aren't making tax policy in this country, but liberals certainly are.

And wealthy inventors are fleeing the utopian dream, preferring to renounce citizenship then partake in your vision, yet the libertarians are shooting ourselves in the foot according to you.

a person would struggle to think up this type of insanity, so thanks! it was a great laugh
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Someone already pointed out that people were engaging in tax evasion when taxes were at record lows and you ignored that and have stuck to your guns. Some people would consider that to be insane.

You have a basic lack of insight into the worldview and motives of a wealthy person.
 
evanescence said:
How long do you give it until this happens?
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It's hard to say. The SS system is expected to reach the point that it takes in less than it pays out by 2037, and the government raids the SS funds to pay for other obligations. Medicare is getting more and more expensive, and our population is aging, with boomers going into the system in huge numbers daily. The economy is in the crapper, and I don't expect that to make an actual turnaround anytime soon.
 
Morality Games said:
Yes, you're right, this is very serious. We should have given them more money during the bail outs and let them break more laws.

In seriousness, you could lower their taxes to 5% and if surcharges didn't cost them more they would still engage in tax evasion of any kind they could. That's what their profession psychologically conditions them to do; save and make money through nook and every crevice they can exploit.
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You're right. It's a game to them.
 
Morality Games said:
Someone already pointed out that people were engaging in tax evasion when taxes were at record lows and you ignored that and have stuck to your guns. Some people would consider that to be insane.

You have a basic lack of insight into the worldview and motives of a wealthy person.
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Yes, I saw his class warfare diatribe.

“they” (the class of rich people) are essentially sociopaths that will do anything to keep more of their money.

Of course poor people do the same, but they aren’t sociopaths, they are simply victims of a bad system.
 
radcen said:
Fair point on who is making policy, but I was addressing the naivete and shortsightedness regarding philosophy, not actual policy.

The irony was great, wasn't it? ;)
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your opinion is people you disagree with are naive and short sighted. Earth shattering position you have there!
 
ARealConservative said:
Yes, I saw his class warfare diatribe.

“they” (the class of rich people) are essentially sociopaths that will do anything to keep more of their money.

Of course poor people do the same, but they aren’t sociopaths, they are simply victims of a bad system.
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I have plenty of social criticism for everyone, and generally dislike most groups of people. If I had my way my approach to the welfare system would be radically different.

Your evaluation of the wealthy and their motives is still wildly off base, though, and accusations of class warfare won't change anything.

The most hilarious thing about this is that the wealthy people who have renounced their citizenship will still exert overwhelmingly more influence on the operations of Congress than the American people through the lobbying power of the corporations they are affiliated with. Next time we go to war, you can be sure the voices of these "billionaires in exile" will have more currency with our elected representatives than the much more manageable American public.

Also, the wealthy aren't sociopaths anymore than you and I are sociopaths -- indeed, their self-absorption and lack of perspective is rather typical of most humans. They just enjoy a higher position on the income bracket, so it seems far more obnoxious.
 
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ARealConservative said:
your opinion is people you disagree with are naive and short sighted. Earth shattering position you have there!
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Isn't that what everybody thinks, including yourself? Why would one even have an opinion if they didn't believe it were correct and people who disagreed were incorrect? You may not be using the same words, but you're essentially saying the same thing.

Though I do sense that if you could actually refute my point... instead of opting for an ad hominem attack... you would.
 
I do enjoy the liberal positions exhibited in the thread though.

1. For renouncing citizenship in a free country, they should be given 20 years hard labor.
2. Lock the door behind them.
3. These people are criminals.
4. So what, people are replaceable
5. Taking part in the American dream is *bad*
6. You owe far more than you legally owe, to the working class

Self-evident absurdity I think. Even better, this is all built on top of the irony that some on these forums have periodically proclaimed "don't like it, then leave!". So they do, and they still get bitched at? I know, I know, you want their money, the rest is just window dressing.
 
radcen said:
Isn't that what everybody thinks, including yourself? Why would one even have an opinion if they didn't believe it were correct and people who disagreed were incorrect? You may not be using the same words, but you're essentially saying the same thing.

Though I do sense that if you could actually refute my point... instead of opting for an ad hominem attack... you would.
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Which point? The stupid one about sucking someones tits, or the even dumber one about miniscule spending at a later date being of no use to the economy? Or do I deal with the ignored reality, where productive members of society are leaving because they feel it is in their best interest too?
 
Mach said:
I do enjoy the liberal positions exhibited in the thread though.

1. For renouncing citizenship in a free country, they should be given 20 years hard labor.
2. Lock the door behind them.
3. These people are criminals.
4. So what, people are replaceable
5. Taking part in the American dream is *bad*
6. You owe far more than you legally owe, to the working class

Self-evident absurdity I think. Even better, this is all built on top of the irony that some on these forums have periodically proclaimed "don't like it, then leave!". So they do, and they still get bitched at? I know, I know, you want their money, the rest is just window dressing.
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Your lack of honesty is showing.

Didn't racden say that the American dream doesn't exist? Hm. That's quite the libertarian position.

Also irony -- suggesting that "20 years of hard labor" (from a socialist) is a liberal position self-evidently absurd.

These people are criminals.
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They are criminals, pretty much, since it is tax evasion that motivates them. It's just hard to prove the way the law is currently worded. Or maybe not. We'll see.

So what, people are replaceable
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Some people are heroes and can't be replaced. But we can probably find equally competent people who would be willing to enjoy the positions vacated by tax-evading billionaires.

You owe far more than you legally owe, to the working class
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They enjoyed quite the recovery at the public expense. You'd think they would chalk any additional taxes up to paying back that for at least a couple years before jumping ship.

Taking part in the American dream is *bad*
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Political engineering that makes the dream impossible to pursue for anyone with less than 401k is probably bad.

Lock the door behind them.
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By far the mildest proposal, and already law, anyway. A better proposal would be too confiscate any and all property through every means you can, including by exerting influence on governments overseas.
 
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If it's all about doing what is in one's own best interest, ok... but it's a two-way street. The government is just fine in acting in it's own best interests, as well, when it says, "You used us to your benefit, and now when it comes time to contribute to the system that you so ably used, now you shun us. Ok, as is your right. It's not in our best interest to continue to appease you. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.".
 
American said:
If people are leaving this country because of government policies, we should be focusing on those policies and not the people.
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If someone renounces their citizenship he or she should never get it back nor should he or she ever be welcomed back. Deserters are worse than the people who created these government policies.
 
radcen said:
If it's all about doing what is in one's own best interest, ok... but it's a two-way street. The government is just fine in acting in it's own best interests, as well, when it says, "You used us to your benefit, and now when it comes time to contribute to the system that you so ably used, now you shun us. Ok, as is your right. It's not in our best interest to continue to appease you. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.".
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Whoops. Seems like I've done you a disservice. It was Henrin who said the American Dream didn't exist.
 
Okay, "super rich" nonsense aside...

If you voluntarily offer to terminate your citizenship of any given country for any reason, and if you do so in a legal manner, I think any future activity in the country should be done as though you're an alien. All paperwork, processes, investigations, and requirements applied to other foreigners coming into the country should apply to the former citizen.

If you voluntarily offer to terminate your citizenship for nefarious reasons or while simultaneously committing crimes against the citizens of the country you should be flagged for immediate capture and holding if you re-enter the country so you can face the legal consequences of your criminal actions.

:shrug:
 
tessaesque said:
Okay, "super rich" nonsense aside...

If you voluntarily offer to terminate your citizenship of any given country for any reason, and if you do so in a legal manner, I think any future activity in the country should be done as though you're an alien. All paperwork, processes, investigations, and requirements applied to other foreigners coming into the country should apply to the former citizen.

If you voluntarily offer to terminate your citizenship for nefarious reasons or while simultaneously committing crimes against the citizens of the country you should be flagged for immediate capture and holding if you re-enter the country so you can face the legal consequences of your criminal actions.

:shrug:
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The criminal consequence of renouncing citizenship to evade taxes is never being allowed to return.

Which is an ineffective punishment as it assumes most billionaires feel deep affinity toward the United States, when their high standing in an increasingly global economy probably endows them with a more cosmopolitan perspective -- patriotism must seem rustic in comparison.
 
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Morality Games said:
The criminal consequence of renouncing citizenship to evade taxes is never being allowed to return.

Which is an ineffective punishment as it assumes most billionaires feel deep affinity toward the United States, when their high standing in an increasingly global economy probably endows them with a more cosmopolitan perspective -- patriotism must seem rustic in comparison.
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Would that not be included in my second scenario?
 
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