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Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

There is always an exception to the rule.

But for some reason I just don't see a person of stable mind taking their own life unless circumstances allowed for it.
I would have to say getting bullied isn't one of them.
However, jumping from the WTC could be that type of circumstance.
 
I REALLY didn't even want to watch the video, because I knew I'd probably want to comment on it. Just been reading the thread since it's inception. OK. I watched the video. I have mixed feelings about it. Firstly, from what I saw, it seemed that the students leaving was a planned event. Too neat. And, at least from what I saw him saying, initially, I really didn't see anything incredibly offensive... and I am probably one of the most religious members on this board. However, my problem with what he was saying was that he was NOT discussing the root causes of hatred towards homosexuality. He was bashing the bible. If he wanted to discuss the root causes, he should have gone a different route. Probably should have discussed the REAL meanings of Leviticus and other passages, indicated how it's not the belief system, but what people take from it that matters, and how the root cause is really a dependency on religion to foster beliefs about sexuality rather than science and research. If he's talking about bullying, he need to present "tools' on how to confront it. You do this by proving people wrong, not by telling people their beliefs or "book" is BS. Overall, I saw the situation as a wash. Not as bad as some have presented, but not really appropriate for the conference.

Oh, and with a presentation like his, he wouldn't last a minute at DP. ;)

I don't care for Dan Savag but I can't say I disagree with his opinion of the bible. However, I think he's completely off the mark in regards to bullying here.

I don't see any evidence that Christianity is a root cause for this kind of bullying. I see no reason to believe that the underlying psychology for bullying a particular subset, in this case - gays, is any different than the underlying psychology for bullying scrawny nerds, or fat girls, or kids with bad acne. And that has nothing to do with the bible or Christianity.
 
This what I rejected, this is the cave, this is what I objected to:

To again cave to saying "People should be reasonable to those who hold to irrational views" is just utterly wrong, especially when those views foster the persecution we are discussing, the VERY THING that she has experienced.

This was no "caving". It was recognizing that HOW you approach someone on this issue is of utmost importance. Good for her.
 
Didn't say Christianity. He went on a rant calling many things in the Bible "BS" and never presented ANY position that this was an exception nor presented any non-condemnation of the bible. His presentation condemned it.
Again, no money quote, nothing to back your claim.
Here is the error in your logic.

If Dan did not recognize that the Bible does teach acceptance and forgiveness, that some christians do follow it while others do not, he would not be able to make the claim of hypocrisy.






That is not what I said. Try not to make straw man arguments. Do try to address what I actually say.
Your argument is that when he attacks portions of the Bible, he is attacking all of it....since you can't seem to come up with a statement from him that he condemns all of the Bible.
 
I don't care for Dan Savag but I can't say I disagree with his opinion of the bible. However, I think he's completely off the mark in regards to bullying here.

I don't see any evidence that Christianity is a root cause for this kind of bullying. I see no reason to believe that the underlying psychology for bullying a particular subset, in this case - gays, is any different than the underlying psychology for bullying scrawny nerds, or fat girls, or kids with bad acne. And that has nothing to do with the bible or Christianity.

Mmmm... I don't completely agree, here. The bible and how people interpret it does have a little do to with bullying in the case of gays, specifically, because SOME of the religious do use biblical passages to condemn homosexuals. There are no passages that present the same kind of attacks towards fat girls or kids with acne. This is a very light correlation, but one nevertheless.
 
Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens

The bullying did not "cause" the suicides. It may have contributed to how the individual felt, but no one causes anyone to commit suicide. Suicides are far more complicated than that. Some folks get bullied horribly and don't kill themselves, others get bullied minimally and do. There are a lot of factors that go into this. Near where I live, people are being prosecuted for contributing to the suicide of a gay college student. People video taped him in a compromising position with another male and then let this become public. Prosecuting them for harassment? Absolutely... throw the book at them. Blaming them for the suicide? No. Their behavior was wrong and they contributed to the instability of the individual who died, but they did not cause it.

Nice post, CC. Well said.
 
Again, no money quote, nothing to back your claim.
Here is the error in your logic.

Told you what he said. You don't agree. Your agreement is not necessary.

If Dan did not recognize that the Bible does teach acceptance and forgiveness, that some christians do follow it while others do not, he would not be able to make the claim of hypocrisy.

Well, he didn't say anything of the kind in his tirade, so his ability to point out hypocrisy failed.

Your argument is that when he attacks portions of the Bible, he is attacking all of it....since you can't seem to come up with a statement from him that he condemns all of the Bible.

No, that's not my argument either. Keep trying.
 
Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens

The bullying did not "cause" the suicides. It may have contributed to how the individual felt, but no one causes anyone to commit suicide. Suicides are far more complicated than that. Some folks get bullied horribly and don't kill themselves, others get bullied minimally and do. There are a lot of factors that go into this. Near where I live, people are being prosecuted for contributing to the suicide of a gay college student. People video taped him in a compromising position with another male and then let this become public. Prosecuting them for harassment? Absolutely... throw the book at them. Blaming them for the suicide? No. Their behavior was wrong and they contributed to the instability of the individual who died, but they did not cause it.
This is just absolute nonsense, to claim that that you know that when people say what drove them over the edge was not what they said it was.....that in effect they are lying.

Where do you get off claiming to know more about the cause than the person who actually killed themselves?

Wow, unbelievable.
 
This what I rejected, this is the cave, this is what I objected to:

To again cave to saying "People should be reasonable to those who hold to irrational views" is just utterly wrong, especially when those views foster the persecution we are discussing, the VERY THING that she has experienced.

I did not cave in to anything. Savage was in the wrong here, and did nothing to help our cause.
 
Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens

I'll take a stab at this. Their interpretation of Christianity, therefore, their individual beliefs influenced their behavior.
I agree which is why I said, "a particular understanding of the Bible" instead of "the Bible." And that's my point, the beliefs that stem from particular understandings/interpretations of the Bible influence Christian actions. In this case, the action being discussed is bullying. It's not just a case of "oh these guys are just assholes, their beliefs have nothing to do with it." That's wrong. Their beliefs do have an influence just like they have an influence when they do good things.
 
Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens

This is just absolute nonsense, to claim that that you know that when people say what drove them over the edge was not what they said it was.....that in effect they are lying.

Where do you get off claiming to know more about the cause than the person who actually killed themselves?

Wow, unbelievable.

20+ years as a clinical psychotherapist having worked with hundreds of people who have attempted suicide AND having done my graduate school thesis on suicidality. I know the issue backwards and forwards, better than most. There is no ONE factor that "causes" someone to attempt/commit suicide. It is FAR more complicated than that.
 
Told you what he said. You don't agree. Your agreement is not necessary.
You are not stating what he said....because he never said it.



Well, he didn't say anything of the kind in his tirade, so his ability to point out hypocrisy failed.
You just absolutely refuse to listen to what he said, you r filter is just amazing. You have no justification for your position, and then you reject the obvious logic of what he said.



No, that's not my argument either. Keep trying.
No, this is the part where you try to restate what point you had....that you don't have any longer....which is why you can't state it.
 
Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens

I agree which is why I said, "a particular understanding of the Bible" instead of "the Bible." And that's my point, the beliefs that stem from particular understandings/interpretations of the Bible influence Christian actions. In this case, the action being discussed is bullying. It's not just a case of "oh these guys are just assholes, their beliefs have nothing to do with it." That's wrong. Their beliefs do have an influence just like they have an influence when they do good things.

Of course they have an influence, but the overriding factor is the individual's interpretation of those beliefs. It's why two people can hear the same passage and take very different things from it.
 
Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens

20+ years as a clinical psychotherapist having worked with hundreds of people who have attempted suicide AND having done my graduate school thesis on suicidality. I know the issue backwards and forwards, better than most. There is no ONE factor that "causes" someone to attempt/commit suicide. It is FAR more complicated than that.
I see, in all of your experience, their has never been a single action that finally pushed a person over the edge.....or that the accumulated bullying pushed someone to suicide.

Got it.
 
You are not stating what he said....because he never said it.

I did state what he said. You have chosen to not listen to it.

You just absolutely refuse to listen to what he said, you r filter is just amazing. You have no justification for your position, and then you reject the obvious logic of what he said.

I listened to everything he said, clearly. You have chosen to close your mind to any opposing views. And I have already pointed out several logical errors that you have made.



No, this is the part where you try to restate what point you had....that you don't have any longer....which is why you can't state it.

No, this is the part where you prefer to argue something I didn't say because you can't argue what I did.
 
Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens

I see, in all of your experience, their has never been a single action that finally pushed a person over the edge.....or that the accumulated bullying pushed someone to suicide.

Got it.

Let me know when you want to discuss what I say, and not what you want me to say. It is getting tiring watching you misquote me and make so many logical errors.
 
I don't care for Dan Savag but I can't say I disagree with his opinion of the bible. However, I think he's completely off the mark in regards to bullying here.

I don't see any evidence that Christianity is a root cause for this kind of bullying. I see no reason to believe that the underlying psychology for bullying a particular subset, in this case - gays, is any different than the underlying psychology for bullying scrawny nerds, or fat girls, or kids with bad acne. And that has nothing to do with the bible or Christianity.


On Monday, April 23, an 18-year-old Ogden resident on a community panel spoke about the dangers of bullying. Alex Smith told the packed room about the bullying his boyfriend, Jack, experienced at school.
What no one in the room yet knew, including Alex, was that Jack had already taken his own life.
The death of Jack Reese is the latest known suicide of a gay teen in Northern Utah.
One official told Ogden OUTreach director Marian Edmonds, off the record: “It happens here about once a week, but officially, you know, it doesn’t happen here.”
OUTreach is hosting a community panel and discussion, A Community Stands up – Northern Utah Addresses LGBT Bullying and Suicide on May 1, 6:30 p.m., at the Ogden Amphitheater, 343 E. 25th St., Ogden. The purpose of the event is for the community to stand in solidarity with queer youth, to speak out and express grief and outrage at yet another loss of life in Northern Utah, and to witness for the need for immediate change in schools, churches and society.
Until all youth are loved and accepted in their homes, able to attend school without fear of bullying, and know that their lives are worth living, this community will continue to demand change, Edmonds said in a press release.
Numerous community leaders, educators, parents and youth will speak out for acceptance and love for LGBT youth, including active members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A candlelight vigil in memory of Jack Reese will be held at the conclusion of the event.
The youth I work with all know either a victim of bullying, the loss of a friend to suicide, and most often, both. These youth are bright, creative and loving, yet too often face daily abuse from rejecting families, bullies at school and the loss of their church family. It is time for local schools to incorporate proven techniques for eliminating bullying and homophobia, for churches to preach love and acceptance, and for parents and families to love and accept their children. Each loss of life is a loss for all of us, and it must stop now,” Edmonds said.
Edmonds underscored the need for accurate education and guidance for ethnically and religiously diverse families and cited the work of the Family Acceptance Project at San Francisco State University – a research-based education, support and policy initiative that helps ethnically and religiously diverse families – including Latter-day Saint families – support their LGBT children in families, schools and faith communities to prevent suicide, substance abuse, HIV, homelessness, school victimization and family disruption. FAP uses a culturally grounded approach that strengthens families and promotes their LGBT children’s well-being.
FAP’s family education materials are available online in three languages at familyproject.sfsu.edu/publications.
 
I did state what he said. You have chosen to not listen to it.
No, you did not quote him, you still have not quoted him, you have not backed your claim that he condemns all of the Bible.



I listened to everything he said, clearly. You have chosen to close your mind to any opposing views. And I have already pointed out several logical errors that you have made.
Um, I presented the logic to his point, you did not address it, you rejected it without rationale.





No, this is the part where you prefer to argue something I didn't say because you can't argue what I did.
You are just playing games, you won't restate what your point was or is. That is fine with me, it only re-enforces my point that you don't have a point any longer.
 
No, you did not quote him, you still have not quoted him, you have not backed your claim that he condemns all of the Bible.

I certainly did in post 243. I summarized accurately. I'm not going to transcribe his speech.

Um, I presented the logic to his point, you did not address it, you rejected it without rationale.

You presented no logic. You stated that he said something he did not say or address. That's called dishonesty.

You are just playing games, you won't restate what your point was or is. That is fine with me, it only re-enforces my point that you don't have a point any longer.

I'm not in the habit of restating positions because someone chooses to play straw man games which is what you are doing and doing consistently. You want to know my position? Read the post in question. It's all there.
 
I certainly did in post 243. I summarized accurately. I'm not going to transcribe his speech.
Unless you have a quote showing he condemns ALL of the Bible, you have no point, since that was your point.



You presented no logic. You stated that he said something he did not say or address. That's called dishonesty.
No, I am not being dishonest, I am presenting the logic, I will do it again. A claim of hypocrisy comes from conflicting positions held by a person. The assumption is that a christian holds the views of acceptance and love of people....and that homosexuals should be condemned. To get to a position that a christian DOES hold to the acceptance and love view, is a position that the Bible does teach that. If Savage holds that view, then it follows that Savage does believe that the Bible teaches that. Savage would want christians to follow that teaching and not hold to the conflicting view of condemning gays.
Ergo, Savage does not condemn ALL of the Bible.


I'm not in the habit of restating positions because someone chooses to play straw man games which is what you are doing and doing consistently. You want to know my position? Read the post in question. It's all there.
Anytime you want to prove your claim, I will be all eyes.
 
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This should not be permitted, any more than the opposition would tolerate having a evangelical Revivial preacher in the school gym preaching to the students that all atheists are going to hell.
 
A claim of hypocrisy comes from conflicting positions held by a person. The assumption is that a christian holds the views of acceptance and love of people....and that homosexuals should be condemned. To get to a position that a christian DOES hold to the acceptance and love view, is a position that the Bible does teach that.
There is no hypocrisy, or conflicting view there. Homosexuality is considered an abomination in the Bible.
 
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Thunder, I have generally treated you with a measure of respect, despite your frequently distateful behavior.


That just came to an end. What few tiny, tattered shreds of respect I had for you just evaporated thanks to your behavior in this thread.
 
On Monday, April 23, an 18-year-old Ogden resident on a community panel spoke about the dangers of bullying. Alex Smith told the packed room about the bullying his boyfriend, Jack, experienced at school.
What no one in the room yet knew, including Alex, was that Jack had already taken his own life.
The death of Jack Reese is the latest known suicide of a gay teen in Northern Utah.
One official told Ogden OUTreach director Marian Edmonds, off the record: “It happens here about once a week, but officially, you know, it doesn’t happen here.”
OUTreach is hosting a community panel and discussion, A Community Stands up – Northern Utah Addresses LGBT Bullying and Suicide on May 1, 6:30 p.m., at the Ogden Amphitheater, 343 E. 25th St., Ogden. The purpose of the event is for the community to stand in solidarity with queer youth, to speak out and express grief and outrage at yet another loss of life in Northern Utah, and to witness for the need for immediate change in schools, churches and society.
Until all youth are loved and accepted in their homes, able to attend school without fear of bullying, and know that their lives are worth living, this community will continue to demand change, Edmonds said in a press release.
Numerous community leaders, educators, parents and youth will speak out for acceptance and love for LGBT youth, including active members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A candlelight vigil in memory of Jack Reese will be held at the conclusion of the event.
The youth I work with all know either a victim of bullying, the loss of a friend to suicide, and most often, both. These youth are bright, creative and loving, yet too often face daily abuse from rejecting families, bullies at school and the loss of their church family. It is time for local schools to incorporate proven techniques for eliminating bullying and homophobia, for churches to preach love and acceptance, and for parents and families to love and accept their children. Each loss of life is a loss for all of us, and it must stop now,” Edmonds said.
Edmonds underscored the need for accurate education and guidance for ethnically and religiously diverse families and cited the work of the Family Acceptance Project at San Francisco State University – a research-based education, support and policy initiative that helps ethnically and religiously diverse families – including Latter-day Saint families – support their LGBT children in families, schools and faith communities to prevent suicide, substance abuse, HIV, homelessness, school victimization and family disruption. FAP uses a culturally grounded approach that strengthens families and promotes their LGBT children’s well-being.
FAP’s family education materials are available online in three languages at familyproject.sfsu.edu/publications.

...and?


I'll say it again, I don't see any evidence that the underlying causes of bullying of gays are fundamentally different than the underlying causes of other forms of bullying.
 
...and?


I'll say it again, I don't see any evidence that the underlying causes of bullying of gays are fundamentally different than the underlying causes of other forms of bullying.
The point is the rationale used by bullies for the continuation of the bullying, ie the Biblical justification.....the topic at hand. Now don't go off and say there are many other justifications used....Savage is not denying that, the focus of his and the topic at hand is the Biblical justification.
 
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