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Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens[W:165; 667]

He didn't attack the beliefs of all Christians. He attacked the beliefs of some Christians and there's nothing wrong with that. You attack the beliefs that make bullies bully. I doubt you would have a problem with him attack white supremacist beliefs or beliefs that being small in stature is a sign weakness that should be exploited. This is the same thing except that some people think that irrational beliefs held by Christians should be immune.

Its not what he said...it was the way he said it and the insults included...
 
You're assuming that there is some monolithic "gay community." There is not.

Gay Conservatives Demand Dan Savage Apologize for Anti-Christian Tirade - Dan Savage - Fox Nation

First, there's a time and a place for a riff that turns into a meltdown rant, and a lecture to high school students attending a journalism conference wasn't that time or place. Of course, you can't always predict when you're going to crack up and lose your good sense and judgment, LOL.

Second, there are gay conservatives who are also people of faith, and Savage isn't helping them one darned bit by Bible-bashing and all his crap about how the Bible gets the "easiest moral question that man has ever faced wrong" and got human sexuality all wrong too. He's exacerbating the conflict that many gay Christians experience, and I resent it.
I didn't assume anything. I took the "gay community" quote from the tweet Josie posted. Take this up with the person who made the tweet.
 
He didn't attack the beliefs of all Christians. He attacked the beliefs of some Christians and there's nothing wrong with that. You attack the beliefs that make bullies bully. I doubt you would have a problem with him attack white supremacist beliefs or beliefs that being small in stature is a sign weakness that should be exploited. This is the same thing except that some people think that irrational beliefs held by Christians should be immune.

Yea attacking the beliefs of some Christians, especially when those beliefs are bigoted is fine.
But he applied it broadly to all Christians, then he called those who left, pansies.

Sorry but his speech was **** and didn't do anything to advance his cause.
What's the point of speaking to people that already agree with you?
 
Again, you keep missing it, the attack is upon the message first and foremost. Second, the attack on the person comes when they refuse to see the irrationality of holding to their view.

Those kids are old enough to be challenged on their views since they are capable of acting out with those views.

How many of those kids act out on their views?
How do we even know what their views are?

This anti bully speech was dumb in the first place.
I'm guessing the vast majority of the people present, don't bully in the first place.
 
Great post, Gina. You and I have talked about this, before. No matter what you believe, attacking people and putting them on the defensive only makes them dig in more. Many of the attitudes that have changed in me have done so because people like you, and others, were willing to hear me out first.

Well said...X...My wife bought me a sign...and its next to my puter on the wall....I JUST WISH MY MOUTH HAD A BACKSPACE KEY....When I am wrong...I have absolutely no qualms in apologizing...doesnt make you small or a coward or traitor...and for someone to try and demean anyone for doing what they believe is the right thing...will get my ass up everytime...
People get caught up in conservations get emotional and sometimes say things they dont mean or carry on an argument out of frustration or whatever knowing they arent saying what they really believe...If there was prison time for that id be a convict...the difference is some have the fortitude to admit they were wrong...and to those I say hats off to you...
 
Its not what he said...it was the way he said it and the insults included...
I agree that the way he said it was not at all conducive to discussion. I've said many times to atheists on this board that when they say things like "imaginary friend" and such, they get negative reactions because of how, not what, they said. However, in this case, we're talking about bigotry that stems from inconsistent and in turn, irrational, beliefs - the belief that what the Bible says about homosexuality is correct, but that we can just ignore what it says about slavery and other things.

If he had spoken in the same manner about Bible-based rationalizations for slavery or racism, I highly doubt people would have a problem with what he said, but for some reason, people think that Bible-based rationalizations of anti-gay bigotry ought not be criticized in the same manner. That's hypocrisy and I don't sympathize with it,
 
To review, Dan Savage was invited to the JEA/NSPA high school journalists' convention. Here is what the promo said:

"Dan Savage was already a popular syndicated columnist when he created the “It Gets Better” video project. He’ll speak at 1 p.m. on Friday, April 13, about alternative media, social media and creating a movement against bullying."

JEA/NSPA Seattle 2012


The "B.S. in the Bible" rant doesn't appear to be relevant to the topic, and the offensive language wasn't appropriate for this audience. Savage went off his chain.
 
Yea attacking the beliefs of some Christians, especially when those beliefs are bigoted is fine.
But he applied it broadly to all Christians, then he called those who left, pansies.

Sorry but his speech was **** and didn't do anything to advance his cause.
What's the point of speaking to people that already agree with you?
He didn't seem to be applying it to all Christians. It looked like he was applying it to Christians who do what he mentioned in the video.

I agree that calling people "pansies" wasn't the best idea, but again, if he were talking about other types of bigotry like racism and he called racists who walked out "pansies", I doubt people would have a problem with it. It's the sacred nature of Christianity that gets people frustrated about things like this.

People make speeches to people who agree with them all the time. Those kinds of speeches can have many purposes.
 
Great post, Gina. You and I have talked about this, before. No matter what you believe, attacking people and putting them on the defensive only makes them dig in more. Many of the attitudes that have changed in me have done so because people like you, and others, were willing to hear me out first.

Thanks X! :) That's good to know. :)

I've had the same experience, in both directions. I either dug in over the ridicule, or adjusted my opinion and even if I didn't change, I certainly gained new insight and understanding after calm debate. Snarky rants, comments or ill manners are counter-productive, in my opinion. And not just in individual conversation but as we saw in the OP and accompanying videos, reaching a wider audience will probably have the exact opposite effect on a greater number of people. Savage did his cause harm in this instance.
 
How many of those kids act out on their views?
How do we even know what their views are?

This anti bully speech was dumb in the first place.
I'm guessing the vast majority of the people present, don't bully in the first place.
First off, they know who Dan Savage is. You apparently don't. The suicides of gay teens is a topic among HS journalist students. The cause, the motivation, of the bullying was the the point. Context just seems to be an issue, but then I didn't expect much.
 
To review, Dan Savage was invited to the JEA/NSPA high school journalists' convention. Here is what the promo said:

"Dan Savage was already a popular syndicated columnist when he created the “It Gets Better” video project. He’ll speak at 1 p.m. on Friday, April 13, about alternative media, social media and creating a movement against bullying."

JEA/NSPA Seattle 2012


The "B.S. in the Bible" rant doesn't appear to be relevant to the topic, and the offensive language wasn't appropriate for this audience. Savage went off his chain.

I think that's probably what happened too. The school didn't know he was going to start Bible-bashing.
 
Again, you keep missing it, the attack is upon the message first and foremost. Second, the attack on the person comes when they refuse to see the irrationality of holding to their view.

Those kids are old enough to be challenged on their views since they are capable of acting out with those views.

No, you keep missing it. Savage was invited to keynote on anti-bullying efforts and the use of alternative social media to help, not to launch an anti-Bible screed. And as good old Aristotle pointed out, if you abuse your audience, you lose them.
 
I think that's probably what happened too. The school didn't know he was going to start Bible-bashing.

I figure they expected him to talk about FB and Twitter, etc. as useful social media tools for reaching those who may be victims of bullying.
 
Moderator's Warning:
You ALL need to stop the personal comments and attacks. Now.
 
No, you keep missing it. Savage was invited to keynote on anti-bullying efforts and the use of alternative social media to help, not to launch an anti-Bible screed. And as good old Aristotle pointed out, if you abuse your audience, you lose them.
I see, when giving a speech about the root causes of the bullying, you should avoid talking about the root causes.

Brilliant!
 
No, you keep missing it. Savage was invited to keynote on anti-bullying efforts and the use of alternative social media to help, not to launch an anti-Bible screed. And as good old Aristotle pointed out, if you abuse your audience, you lose them.
A lot of people were clapping though.

Also, there's nothing wrong with attacking the beliefs that stem from bullying. Do you think there's a problem with attacking racist beliefs that cause bullying?
 
Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens

He didn't seem to be applying it to all Christians. It looked like he was applying it to Christians who do what he mentioned in the video.

He didn't really differentiate.

I agree that calling people "pansies" wasn't the best idea, but again, if he were talking about other types of bigotry like racism and he called racists who walked out "pansies", I doubt people would have a problem with it. It's the sacred nature of Christianity that gets people frustrated about things like this.

People make speeches to people who agree with them all the time. Those kinds of speeches can have many purposes.

Yes, but in this case, this is speech to a general audience of high school students.
Rather than beat up one group of people, he should of been more generic in his criticism.
Instead he went full retard on Christians.

Just dumb.
 
First off, they know who Dan Savage is. You apparently don't. The suicides of gay teens is a topic among HS journalist students. The cause, the motivation, of the bullying was the the point. Context just seems to be an issue, but then I didn't expect much.

Religious people aren't the only ones who bully gays.
More often than not, people hide behind religion to justify bullying gays, when the truth is closer to them being general douche bags.

Going after the religion is dumb, when the individuals motivations are not really religious in nature.
 
Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens

He didn't really differentiate.



Yes, but in this case, this is speech to a general audience of high school students.
Rather than beat up one group of people, he should of been more generic in his criticism.
Instead he went full retard on Christians.

Just dumb.
No, it wasn't. In fact it was to journalist HS students, those who write for HS papers, who have an influence on their audience.
 
I see, when giving a speech about the root causes of the bullying, you should avoid talking about the root causes.

Brilliant!
Yep. A lot of people who teach their children that homosexuality is a sin and bad and that gay people can't get married are teaching their children to think of others as less than them. If you teach a lot of kids something like that, then they'll go straight to bullying gay kids. A lot of Christians who think homosexuality is a sin don't want to admit that because then they would have to share some of the blame for anti-gay bullying and its consequences.
 
Religious people aren't the only ones who bully gays.
More often than not, people hide behind religion to justify bullying gays, when the truth is closer to them being general douche bags.

Going after the religion is dumb, when the individuals motivations are not really religious in nature.
You learn to hate, the hate comes from teaching. The primary source of hatred towards homosexuality in the US is the Bible.
 
Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens

No, it wasn't. In fact it was to journalist HS students, those who write for HS papers, who have an influence on their audience.

Right and barring their interest in journalism, they're all the same?
They aren't and attacking some of them, who happen to be religious (in some form or another) is wise?
 
Re: Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens

He didn't really differentiate.
I heard it much differently than you then.

Yes, but in this case, this is speech to a general audience of high school students.
Rather than beat up one group of people, he should of been more generic in his criticism.
Instead he went full retard on Christians.

Just dumb.
Not dumb. Most anti-gay bigotry in this country is rooted in Christian opinions on homosexuality. If this was a speech about attacking the root causes of bullying and specifically gay bullying, it would be dumb to leave out one of the main root causes. He could have been more classy about it, but then again, nobody would care about his presentation if it hadn't been about Christianity.
 
Yep. A lot of people who teach their children that homosexuality is a sin and bad and that gay people can't get married are teaching their children to think of others as less than them. If you teach a lot of kids something like that, then they'll go straight to bullying gay kids. A lot of Christians who think homosexuality is a sin don't want to admit that because then they would have to share some of the blame for anti-gay bullying and its consequences.

Excuse me? You can believe something is morally wrong and not BULLY the people who choose it. That's a ridiculous statement you made.
 
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