Another Unarmed Black Man Killed

ThePlayDrive · Apr 20, 2012

Zyphlin said:
What's discpicable to me is that you have an utter disregard for the basis of human nature that everyone, when it comes down to push and shove and you get them talking honestly, values their loved ones lives more than the lives of an equal amount of others.

What are you even talking about? This is thread is like the center of not addressing what people actually said and making up nonsense.

Can you please show me specifically in the post you quoted where I show an "utter disregard for the basis of human nature" that has anything to do with "valuing loved ones more than the lives of an equal amount to others?"

Gun up to a strangers head and one up to your wife or mother's head....you have to choose one to live...you tell me honestly which you'd choose.

I guess you missed both of my posts where I said I would SHOOT the stranger if they tried to enter my house or threaten me.

Situation like that you're stuck with a scenario where you either err on the side of caution for the life of the person invading your property or err on the side of caution for the life of you and your loved ones. I find it despicable that you seek to insult and degrade those that would put their loved ones lives ahead of those who are acting in the wrong.

Again, I guess you missed both of my posts where I said I would SHOOT the stranger if they tried to enter my house or threaten me.

I'm sorry that people on this board or the castle doctrine have changed your mind about gun laws, but to be honest I don't really care. It's people like you who actually strengthen my normally rather ambivelent attitude towards the need to elect and support significantly strong 2nd amendment individuals because you remind me of the type of unrealistic, ridiculously cowardly, rainbow and lollipops believing, foolish views there are out there that people hold on the issue and why it actually is important. You keep deluding yourself that you have some higher regard for human life, becuase that's all you're doing.

Again, I guess you missed both of my posts where I said I would SHOOT the stranger if they tried to enter my house or threaten me. How is that "rainbow" whatever?

Apparently, no one who responds to my posts can read. How about you try again? I've argued for responsible gun ownership, shooting as a last resort and valuing human life even if it's on my property. I've also argued that referring to lost life with callousness and amusement is despicable. I also pointed out that I would shoot someone who tried to enter my house or threatened me while on my property. Somehow out of that, you and others have gotten the bizarre idea I think people shouldn't value their families members over strangers or that I have insulted people because they "would put their loved ones lives ahead of 'those who are acting in the wrong'". Your reading comprehension is a complete failure. Try again because you obviously have no idea what you read.

If you people are standard for gun owners in this country, God ****ing help us. At least I can read. P.S. I do have a higher regard for human life because I would shoot as a LAST RESORT and I would also not refer to the dead as "dumbasses" and take pleasure in comments about the "Darwin awards" and say things like "screw him" that devalue the importance of their life. ****ing sick.

MaggieD · Apr 20, 2012

ThePlayDrive said:
I guess you missed both of my posts where I said I would SHOOT the stranger if they tried to enter my house or threaten me.

Again, I guess you missed both of my posts where I said I would SHOOT the stranger if they tried to enter my house or threaten me.

Again, I guess you missed both of my posts where I said I would SHOOT the stranger if they tried to enter my house or threaten me. How is that "rainbow" whatever?

Apparently, no one who responds to my posts can read. How about you try again?

Your reading comprehension is a complete failure. Try again because you obviously have no idea what you read.

Karma. Gotta' love it.

d0gbreath · Apr 20, 2012

The really sad part is that Bo was hiding from the police because he was drinking and underage. An earlier post proclaimed that Bo was 20, so he wasn't a kid.

He can't be both. Lower the drinking age. It should be 18.

lizzie · Apr 20, 2012

ThePlayDrive said:
Talking about the "idiot" has nothing to do with my point even though it's a common deflection.

It has everything to do with the subject. Your observation is that there is disregard for a human life. My point is that the offending party should regard his own life, and by doing otherwise, is being stupid.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 20, 2012

lizzie said:
It has everything to do with the subject. Your observation is that there is disregard for a human life. My point is that the offending party should regard his own life, and by doing otherwise, is being stupid.

It has to do with the subject, yes. It does not, however, have anything to do with my point. I was talking about a poster's disregard for life which is not affected by anything that anyone else did. You can talk about "the idiot" all day long, but how does that support or counter my comment?

Kandahar · Apr 20, 2012

Zyphlin said:
So we have someone whose underage and drinking, ignoring attempts for FOURTY FIVE MINUTES of cops trying to get into the location they're at, then proceeds to flee when the owner of the location arrives, and in fleeing decides to trespass onto another person's property and actually entering into an enclosed area on said property, an action his own parents state was likely to elude cops because he had already been ticketed before for underage drinking, ends up getting shot, the cops find no reason to suspect any wrong doing on the part of the home owner.....

naturally this means we need a thorough additional investigation done on the culpability of the home owner.

No one has suggested that, as far as I can tell; it doesn't appear that he broke any laws. What people HAVE suggested is that this shows how stupid these kind of laws are in the first place.

Because as we know, those you use guns are evil

:roll:

and they're extra evil and criminal if the person they have to use the gun against happens to be black.

True or false: If this guy had done exactly the same thing but had looked like Justin Bieber, he wouldn't have gotten killed.

Answer: Probably true. But we'll never know for sure, and so those who insist on denying the existence of racism (except against whites) will always have plausible deniability.

Is it a ****ty situation? Yes. Know what else would be a ****ty situation? If rather than some kid acting dumb it had been someone thinking they were going to rob the place and was armed.

And that might be a reasonable point...in some other scenario. But in this scenario, the shooter knew goddamn well that it was just some kid acting dumb, as he had spoken with the cops about said dumb kids just six minutes prior to the shooting.

Zyphlin said:
Gun up to a strangers head and one up to your wife or mother's head....you have to choose one to live...you tell me honestly which you'd choose.

Right, because some kid hiding in his enclosed porch is clearly the same as him pointing a gun at his wife's head.

Situation like that you're stuck with a scenario where you either err on the side of caution for the life of the person invading your property or err on the side of caution for the life of you and your loved ones. I find it despicable that you seek to insult and degrade those that would put their loved ones lives ahead of those who are acting in the wrong.

First of all, the guy wasn't even intruding in his house. It's not like he was prowling around the living room; he was in an enclosed porch. Now you can pretend that there's no distinction if you'd like (and legally, perhaps there isn't under Wisconsin law), but you and I both know perfectly well that the two are not the same thing, and one is clearly far more threatening than the other. The reasonable course of action is to go down and tell the kid to get lost. Or if for some reason he's too terrified to do that, he could call the cops again (who he just spoke to six minutes earlier and who were already in the vicinity) and tell THEM to go to the porch and tell the kid to get lost. Or if for some reason he's too terrified to even wait THAT long, he could go downstairs with his gun and lock the door to his house to make sure the guy didn't come inside. All of which are better options than gunning down an unarmed guy who wasn't threatening the homeowner in any way whatsoever.

LizardofOz · Apr 20, 2012

ric27 said:
I'm thinking...

It's the guy on my porch thats not thinking

I don't think you are serious. Let's say it's dark out and raining. A guy a mile down the road breaks down and has no cell phone reception and he comes by your house. He knocks and no answer, but he realizes that you have wifi, uses it, and is texting someone for help. You happen to wake up and you see him standing out there, so instead of yelling "Hey who goes there?", calling the police, or hell firing a warning shot you go right for the kill?

LizardofOz · Apr 20, 2012

VanceMack said:
No, baby...I'm not 'implying' anything. I'm stating directly you don give a **** about them or these two individuals. You 'care' about a cause. Nothin more.

Baby? Sorry dude I'm straight. What is my cause? I'm just curious. Had it been a white guy shot by a black guy, I would be just as indifferent on it. I totally understand someone breaking and entering your house but someone just hanging out on your porch, I would load a gun, call a cop and point the gun at the door while I rock in my rocking chair.

Do you actually read anything I ever post, or do you just care about your cause and nothing more?

Mycroft · Apr 20, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
I don't think you are serious. Let's say it's dark out and raining. A guy a mile down the road breaks down and has no cell phone reception and he comes by your house. He knocks and no answer, but he realizes that you have wifi, uses it, and is texting someone for help. You happen to wake up and you see him standing out there, so instead of yelling "Hey who goes there?", calling the police, or hell firing a warning shot you go right for the kill?

LOL!!!

Hypothetical much???

MaggieD · Apr 20, 2012

Kandahar said:
First of all, the guy wasn't even intruding in his house. It's not like he was prowling around the living room; he was in an enclosed porch. Now you can pretend that there's no distinction if you'd like (and legally, perhaps there isn't under Wisconsin law), but you and I both know perfectly well that the two are not the same thing, and one is clearly far more threatening than the other. The reasonable course of action is to go down and tell the kid to get lost. Or if for some reason he's too terrified to do that, he could call the cops again (who he just spoke to six minutes earlier and who were already in the vicinity) and tell THEM to go to the porch and tell the kid to get lost. Or if for some reason he's too terrified to even wait THAT long, he could go downstairs with his gun and lock the door to his house to make sure the guy didn't come inside. All of which are better options than gunning down an unarmed guy who wasn't threatening the homeowner in any way whatsoever.

Kandahar, any home I've ever been in or owned that's had an enclosed porch is just exactly like being in the house. Our home in suburban Chicago had an enclosed porch right off the living room. There was a half-assed door from the porch to the living room that was hardly ever locked. If you'd ever had an enclosed porch, you'd know that.

The whole purpose of Castle Laws is so people can't do exactly what you're doing. "He didn't have to shoot. He could've done such-and-such-and-such-and-such. You weren't there. You don't know. You break into someone's enclosed porch? You sneak in and have the appearance of lying in wait? You're liable to get killed. Self Defense 101.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 20, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
Baby? Sorry dude I'm straight. What is my cause? I'm just curious. Had it been a white guy shot by a black guy, I would be just as indifferent on it. I totally understand someone breaking and entering your house but someone just hanging out on your porch, I would load a gun, call a cop and point the gun at the door while I rock in my rocking chair.

Do you actually read anything I ever post, or do you just care about your cause and nothing more?

This is exactly the responsible thing to do. You prep yourself in case you need to protect yourself and call the police who are trained to handle the situation. I don't understand why this is something people don't agree on. This seems so obvious.

Kandahar · Apr 20, 2012

VanceMack said:
No, baby...I'm not 'implying' anything. I'm stating directly you don give a **** about them or these two individuals. You 'care' about a cause. Nothin more.

Let's not pretend that you give a damn about them either (unless you know them personally). You care about this because it simultaneously pushes two conservative buttons: 1) The opportunity to defend a white guy against probably accurate allegations of racism, and 2) The opportunity to stand up for the right to gun down anyone who wrongs you in the slightest. :roll:

I hate to make blanket statements like "all conservatives are X, Y, and Z"...but lately I am finding fewer and fewer exceptions to whom the above statements do not apply. Paranoia and just generally being a dick to people now seem to be the cornerstones of conservative ideology.

Kandahar · Apr 20, 2012

MaggieD said:
Kandahar, any home I've ever been in or owned that's had an enclosed porch is just exactly like being in the house. Our home in suburban Chicago had an enclosed porch right off the living room. There was a half-assed door from the porch to the living room that was hardly ever locked.

If you think someone is in your enclosed porch who shouldn't be there, then there is a simply solution to that problem: Lock the door. This guy was apparently brave enough to open the door, go out to the enclosed porch, confront the guy, and shoot him dead. Yet it would just be too terrifying to stop and LOCK the door instead?

MaggieD · Apr 20, 2012

Kandahar said:
I hate to make blanket statements like "all conservatives are X, Y, and Z"...but lately I am finding fewer and fewer exceptions to whom the above statements do not apply. Paranoia and just generally being a dick to people now seem to be the cornerstones of conservative ideology.

No, that's pretty much our interpretation because we're on a highly partisan political debate site. And, I'd remind you, that "just generally being a dick to people" is not reserved for the Right. IRL, most people could care less.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 20, 2012

Kandahar said:
If you think someone is in your enclosed porch who shouldn't be there, then there is a simply solution to that problem: Lock the door. This guy was apparently brave enough to OPEN the door, go out to the enclosed porch, confront the guy, and shoot him dead. Yet it would just be too terrifying to stop and LOCK the door instead?

Yep. When I was a kid, I opened our backdoor to get in the car to go to school. When I opened it, a man ran into our garage. We had two guns in our house, but instead of getting them and shooting the guy as a first or second resort, we closed the door, locked it and called the police. He was alive, we were alive, he went to jail. Sounds good to me. Guns are a last resort - always.

LizardofOz · Apr 20, 2012

Mycroft said:
LOL!!!

Hypothetical much???

Well when someone says they will shoot regardless of the situation, if you add context to it, maybe they reconsider their position. I personally have never been in a situation where I thought man I wish I had my gun on me where I wasn't killing an animal or skeet or a target. The only way I could ever see myself killing a person with a gun is if they entered my house. If they entered my house even if they were drunk and thought it was there house or something, I would likely fire at the least one in their shins.

LizardofOz · Apr 20, 2012

MaggieD said:
No, that's pretty much our interpretation because we're on a highly partisan political debate site. And, I'd remind you, that "just generally being a dick to people" is not reserved for the Right. IRL, most people could care less.

Well I actually post what I believe, so I would assume it is the same for them irl. I'm not calling a coworker crazy for believing something ultra conservative. In real life I actually am a little more conservative than I am on here though. At least, I am more Kentucky Democrat than mainstream democrat, but it appears to me as well that most conservatives on here would still claim me to be some kind of socialist.

Phoenix · Apr 20, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
I don't think you are serious. Let's say it's dark out and raining. A guy a mile down the road breaks down and has no cell phone reception and he comes by your house. He knocks and no answer, but he realizes that you have wifi, uses it, and is texting someone for help. You happen to wake up and you see him standing out there, so instead of yelling "Hey who goes there?", calling the police, or hell firing a warning shot you go right for the kill?

so he is on my property AND he's stealing from me!!?????

VanceMack · Apr 20, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
Baby? Sorry dude I'm straight. What is my cause? I'm just curious. Had it been a white guy shot by a black guy, I would be just as indifferent on it. I totally understand someone breaking and entering your house but someone just hanging out on your porch, I would load a gun, call a cop and point the gun at the door while I rock in my rocking chair.

Do you actually read anything I ever post, or do you just care about your cause and nothing more?

John...funny how you feel the need to frequently assert your "straightness".

How many threads have you started regarding black on black genocide? Yet you feel the need to start a thread regarding a poor black victim murdered most heinously.

Sad...very sad. 8 black people a DAY Die by genocide. And ignored. Oh yes...you 'care'

LaMidRighter · Apr 20, 2012

ThePlayDrive said:
If you're inside of your house and someone is outside of your house crouched in a corner, you aren't in immediate or grave danger at all.

Completely untrue, a young person in relatively good athletic shape can cover distances of 100 yards in around 4-6 seconds, with enough strength can kick through a moderately heavy door in around that time, and if it has windows 2 seconds to wrap hand, break glass, and unlock the latch. There isn't a whole lot of time to figure out intent, degree of danger faced, or if there is a non-violent solution.

And no, my position does not make any of those assumptions. My position takes into account that the person might be armed and might react negatively to someone yelling for the police. My position is based on knowledge, not assumptions. You are in your house, the potential threat is outside of your house in the back and the police are outside of your house in the front. Those three circumstances show that you are not in immediate danger and that you have access to people trained to handle potential threats. If you shoot the person, your actions are question and perhaps irresponsible.

To add to the above, the homeowner has no clue whether this is a scared kid trying to avoid arrest or a professional burgler, a person who knows how to break and enter can do so quickly, a stranger should be assumed an assailant and an assailant should be presumed to have the advantage.

If I were in that situation as has been described by the article, I would have either opened a front window/door and shouted to the police or I would have called 911 again and told them to tell the police outside of my house the situation. I would have my gun and watch the person from a place where I know they can't see me and if they tried to come into my house or if they pointed a weapon, I would shoot them. That would be the responsible thing to do and you shouldn't have a gun unless you know you can think that way in these situations.

Relying on the police is your option, however you are asking them to cover a greater distance than the assailant has to with minimum protection at your back, I would rather end the threat immediately if my hand were forced(may that never happen).

ric27 · Apr 20, 2012

ThePlayDrive said:
So if someone is on your porch, you are just going to think and then shoot them?

Look at all these responsible gun owners we got here.

That's something that you or anyone else will have to find out...if, I see you on my front porch

My point is.....Don't **** around on my front porch. Just stay away and avoid being another stat

Ockham · Apr 20, 2012

LaMidRighter said:
Completely untrue, a young person in relatively good athletic shape can cover distances of 100 yards in around 4-6 seconds, with enough strength can kick through a moderately heavy door in around that time, and if it has windows 2 seconds to wrap hand, break glass, and unlock the latch. There isn't a whole lot of time to figure out intent, degree of danger faced, or if there is a non-violent solution.

Ok I have to be real picky here. The fastest 40 yard dash in Pro Football ever recorded was Bo Jackson who did it in 4.12 seconds in 1986 in the Superdome in New Orleans. If someone is covering 100 yards in 4-6 seconds, they are the fastest person alive and has a helluva career in professional sports.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 20, 2012

LaMidRighter said:
Completely untrue, a young person in relatively good athletic shape can cover distances of 100 yards in around 4-6 seconds, with enough strength can kick through a moderately heavy door in around that time, and if it has windows 2 seconds to wrap hand, break glass, and unlock the latch. There isn't a whole lot of time to figure out intent, degree of danger faced, or if there is a non-violent solution.

That could happen, but that's an unlikely scenario, I think. Moreover, if you think that scenario is a possibility and you believe that the person outside is a threat, then it doesn't make sense to willfully establish contact with that threat by opening your door and then shooting him, particularly when 1) the police are right outside 2) you know a bunch of dumb teenagers are having a party.

To add to the above, the homeowner has no clue whether this is a scared kid trying to avoid arrest or a professional burgler, a person who knows how to break and enter can do so quickly, a stranger should be assumed an assailant and an assailant should be presumed to have the advantage.

If you have such a fear, why go outside, particularly when the police are right outside? To me, shooting is a last resort not only because I would rather not kill someone unless I have to, but because I'm putting myself and my family in danger by opening a door that a criminal can enter. Just keep it closed, keep your gun and call the police who are right outside your house.

Relying on the police is your option, however you are asking them to cover a greater distance than the assailant has to with minimum protection at your back, I would rather end the threat immediately if my hand were forced(may that never happen).

Not in this case, I don't think. If my door is closed, I have my fun and the police are right outside my house, it's reasonable to try them first before opening a door, making myself vulnerable and shooting someone.

*Keep in mind that my argument is, in part, based on the fact that I've been in a similar situation before and no one died because we called the police instead of going outside and handling it ourselves. I just see shooting as a last resort. But even though we disagree, thanks for actually addressing what I said instead of going on some tangent.

rocket88 · Apr 20, 2012

Ockham said:
Ok I have to be real picky here. The fastest 40 yard dash in Pro Football ever recorded was Bo Jackson who did it in 4.12 seconds in 1986 in the Superdome in New Orleans. If someone is covering 100 yards in 4-6 seconds, they are the fastest person alive and has a helluva career in professional sports.

The indoor world record for 50m is 5.56 seconds. 50 meters is about 164 feet, or about 55 yards.

The world record for 100m is 9.58 seconds, so about 109 yards. 4-6 seconds would be well beyond anybody but a world class sprinter, and even for them is not yet possible.

LaMidRighter · Apr 20, 2012

Ockham said:
Ok I have to be real picky here. The fastest 40 yard dash in Pro Football ever recorded was Bo Jackson who did it in 4.12 seconds in 1986 in the Superdome in New Orleans. If someone is covering 100 yards in 4-6 seconds, they are the fastest person alive and has a helluva career in professional sports.

Yeah, I was a little off on that. My overall point is that the assailant has less distance to cover than your protection(police) and can do so in a very short period of time leaving little margin of error. 100 yard dashes average is around 12-13 seconds, in reality though if someone is on the enclosed porch you probably are looking at 10 feet for an average home which can be covered by a criminal very quickly.

Another Unarmed Black Man Killed

ThePlayDrive

MaggieD

d0gbreath

Yellow Dog Democrat

lizzie

ThePlayDrive

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant

LizardofOz

LizardofOz

Mycroft

Genius is where you find it.

MaggieD

ThePlayDrive

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant

MaggieD

ThePlayDrive

LizardofOz

LizardofOz

Phoenix

VanceMack

Less like the tiger...more like the lion.

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto

ric27

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

ThePlayDrive

rocket88

Mod Conspiracy Theorist

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto