Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

poweRob · Apr 8, 2012

Grant said:
Of course I didn't say that.

Yes you did when you said, "Free enterprise put you there, not crony capitalism." That's you saying government investment is crony capitalism. I'm predicting you will try to play semantics to spin out of it but we both know where that came from.

Grant said:
And only the government, with experienced people like Barack Obama, can determine that direction?

If you don't like living in a representative democracy, there are plenty other choices you can make to live in.

Grant said:
That's partly true. Partly.

No. It is true.

Grant said:
Of course I didn't say that either, did I?

Yes you did when you said, "Free enterprise put you there, not crony capitalism." That's you saying "free enterprise" meaning no government... ALL private industry did it. I'm predicting you will try to play semantics to spin out of it but we both know where that came from.

Grant said:
All you're doing in substantiating the claim I made earlier about the US education system.

And all you are doing is resorting to personal insults instead of honestly debating which only weakens your argument even further.

Grant · Apr 8, 2012

poweRob said:
Oh I'm sure there is... but in this case all that money won't benefit hardly anyone but he who owns the pipeline itself.

So you understand there is money to be made by being the middle man but there won't be enough money this time? You feel that this oil will be sold to Asia at just a little bit above the break even point? Do you have the numbers to support this claim?

Don't know what this has to do with anything.

You said

"Drill baby Drill" is short for, "Make my campaign donors richer."

If you choose not to drill and not to have pipelines then it might keep everyone honest, if that is to be the criteria.

Never said there isn't corruption. Like I said, I'm in NM and it is allllll around me here. Newspaper is generally front-paged with government or government/business corruption all the time.

Yes, I know and in fact you said there was corruption. I noted that.

Threw his future away for free car washes. They do the stupidest **** around here. Downtown Santa Fe... if you can find parking, you are paying for it. Recent scandal, over 50% of the money collected from the parking meters is stolen by the parking meter people.

Do we need be reminded again that power corrupts? This is why governments should have as little power as possible. They can't even count the votes come election time and yet they feel they can hand out money to corporations and run a health care system. It's a mad world.

Grant · Apr 8, 2012

poweRob said:
Yes you did when you said, "Free enterprise put you there, not crony capitalism." That's you saying government investment is crony capitalism. I'm predicting you will try to play semantics to spin out of it but we both know where that came from.

Yes, and government involvement with business will inevitable lead to crony capitalism. That's what's happening now in the US and there are many links which can establish that. In fact I sent one earlier.

But you leapt to an erroneous conclusion about what I said and read more into it than what was said. Thats why its best to deal with direct quotes rather then your interpretation of them.

If you don't like living in a representative democracy, there are plenty other choices you can make to live in.

I have no idea where that came from.

And all you are doing is resorting to personal insults instead of honestly debating which only weakens your argument even further.

I was inspired by your
"Bull

Crap

You have bought a load of horse manure and you clearly aren't a good farmer... so to speak".

Is that your idea of honest debate?

poweRob · Apr 8, 2012

Grant said:
Do we need be reminded again that power corrupts? This is why governments should have as little power as possible. They can't even count the votes come election time and yet they feel they can hand out money to corporations and run a health care system. It's a mad world.

Money = power

And yes, power corrupts. So as down as you are on government, they aren't the only thing that is corrupt. Government officials are more often than not corrupted by the invasive tactics of private sector $'s buying them off or throwing kick-backs.

This is where conservatives will use this as an angle to say that that is why we need less government... as if more industry and less government in this scenario will somehow eliminate graft and kickback schemes. Those happen without government too.

poweRob · Apr 8, 2012

Grant said:
Yes, and government involvement with business will inevitable lead to crony capitalism.

Inevitably? Really? There is never any honest dealing ever because if government is involved that it all inevitably leads to crony capitalism?

Grant said:
I have no idea where that came from.

It came from you saying you didn't like that our representative government officials get to choose what direction is best for your country.

Grant said:
I was inspired by your
"Bull

Crap

You have bought a load of horse manure and you clearly aren't a good farmer... so to speak".

Is that your idea of honest debate?

It was hardly saying you were stupid due to being under-educated from a failing US educational system now wasn't it? But if you want to fabricate a victim card as an excuse for your ad hom be my guest because it ruins your argument.

Grant · Apr 8, 2012

poweRob said:
Money = power

And yes, power corrupts. So as down as you are on government, they aren't the only thing that is corrupt.

No, they are not, nor did I make that claim.

Government officials are more often than not corrupted by the invasive tactics of private sector $'s buying them off or throwing kick-backs.

Quite possibly. That's often called "crony capitalism", such as we see in the Obama administration.

This is where conservatives will use this as an angle to say that that is why we need less government..

.

Yes, because we both see how often money and power corrupts. Therefore the less power government has the less likelihood there is of corruption. The more government there is the more likely, as a result of this added power, the greater the opportunity for corruption.

as if more industry and less government in this scenario will somehow eliminate graft and kickback schemes.

Who made that claim? I know I certainly didn't.

Those happen without government too.

Yes, and I'll not argue otherwise.

Grant · Apr 8, 2012

poweRob said:
poweRob said:

Inevitably? Really? There is never any honest dealing ever because if government is involved that it all inevitably leads to crony capitalism?

Click to expand...

You must have seen where I gave you the example, right?

It came from you saying you didn't like that our representative government officials get to choose what direction is best for your country.

Click to expand...

That's right. I want the electorate to decide what is best for the country.

It was hardly saying you were stupid due to being under-educated from a failing US educational system now wasn't it? But if you want to fabricate a victim card as an excuse for your ad hom be my guest because it ruins your argument.

Click to expand...

The educational standards have dropped. There seems little doubt bout that.

Born Free · Apr 8, 2012

Grant said:
That's right. I want the electorate to decide what is best for the country.

Interesting, so if the electorate decides it's best for the country for all to buy a Chevy volt, that's OK by you.

Grant · Apr 8, 2012

Born Free said:
Interesting, so if the electorate decides it's best for the country for all to buy a Chevy volt, that's OK by you.

Yes, that's fine with me. And judging from reports that's what many Americans want.

They like the idea of a President with no business experience whatsoever buying and selling car companies and determining which cars they should buy by effecting the marketplace with incentives, while not offering the same opportunities to their competitors.

This is largely why I question the American education system. Not all that law ago the American people would have laughed at the idea of their president buying large corporations, firing the staff, taking it over and then selling cars at subsidies back to the public (who largely dont want them) and still losing money in the process. Now many seem fine with it.

Do you have another explanation for this phenomenon?

Dittohead not! · Apr 8, 2012

Grant said:
You can run the water through a black water hose, specific to the size of the pool, for far less and with as much efficiency.

and run your air conditioner and pool filter on it, how?

Grant · Apr 8, 2012

Dittohead not! said:
and run your air conditioner and pool filter on it, how?

You mentioned heating the pool and i offered a very cheap and handy alternative to solar panels. I know three people who are doing just that and it works very well. I'll be using it also..

You should figure out a way to cheaply run your air conditioner and pool filter on your own. The black hose idea was intended as a friendly tip that could save you money and nothing more. Go forth and multiply.
.

EagleAye · Apr 8, 2012

sawyerloggingon said:
I found the $3.6 billion thing but theres not enough specifics for me to research and respond to. If it is something like mining laws left over from the 1800s where mining company's lease claims for 5 bucks an acre I would oppose it but I have no idea what it is exactly Obama is talking about here.

I can find many references to it from many sources. It's not a loophole or even part of the tax code. It's simply handing money to the oil industry...just because. Obama has been pressuring Congress to remove the subsidy, and they continue to refuse. There's no good reason to maintain it. And if there's interest in finding backroom deals, that's the place to go looking for it.

Grant said:
Born Free said:

Interesting, so if the electorate decides it's best for the country for all to buy a Chevy volt, that's OK by you.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's fine with me. And judging from reports that's what many Americans want.

They like the idea of a President with no business experience whatsoever buying and selling car companies and determining which cars they should buy by effecting the marketplace with incentives, while not offering the same opportunities to their competitors.

I don't like the idea of anyone selecting what car I should buy. You bristle at the thought of a president with no auto-industry experience picking cars for all of us. Why would you be comfortable with meter maids, garbage men, and office clerks making the same decision? They don't have the right to pick what car I buy either and vice versa. People also complain that by offering government assistance to Renewables, the government is selecting the winner. Well, the subsidy (listed above) and multi-Billion dollar tax breaks is proof that government has been selecting the oil industry as the winner for decades. How is this different from offering tax breaks to consumers buying EVs? At least in this case, consumers are only offered an "encouragement," rather than only a single choice of only ICE cars which amounts to a directive.

Dittohead not! · Apr 8, 2012

EagleAye said:
I can find many references to it from many sources. It's not a loophole or even part of the tax code. It's simply handing money to the oil industry...just because. Obama has been pressuring Congress to remove the subsidy, and they continue to refuse. There's no good reason to maintain it. And if there's interest in finding backroom deals, that's the place to go looking for it.

I don't like the idea of anyone selecting what car I should buy. You bristle at the thought of a president with no auto-industry experience picking cars for all of us. Why would you be comfortable with meter maids, garbage men, and office clerks making the same decision? They don't have the right to pick what car I buy either and vice versa. People also complain that by offering government assistance to Renewables, the government is selecting the winner. Well, the subsidy (listed above) and multi-Billion dollar tax breaks is proof that government has been selecting the oil industry as the winner for decades. How is this different from offering tax breaks to consumers buying EVs? At least in this case, consumers are only offered an "encouragement," rather than only a single choice of only ICE cars which amounts to a directive.

When did the president pick out which car I should buy?

Did he pick the color, too?

EagleAye · Apr 8, 2012

Dittohead not! said:
When did the president pick out which car I should buy?

Did he pick the color, too?

Apparently, by offering a $7500 tax break "incentive" for buying a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt, the President has "decided" that you will buy one of these. I haven't bought either one yet. Does that mean the FBI will take me away soon? Maybe they will take away my birthday?

poweRob · Apr 8, 2012

Grant said:
That's right. I want the electorate to decide what is best for the country.

So you want to abolish our representative democracy and put in it's place a direct democracy... wow.

I can't say I agree with you on this.

poweRob · Apr 8, 2012

Grant said:
No, they are not, nor did I make that claim.

Quite possibly. That's often called "crony capitalism", such as we see in the Obama administration.
.

Yes, because we both see how often money and power corrupts. Therefore the less power government has the less likelihood there is of corruption. The more government there is the more likely, as a result of this added power, the greater the opportunity for corruption.

Who made that claim? I know I certainly didn't.

Yes, and I'll not argue otherwise.

I've decided that it's becoming too much work to respond to you on this topic because even with your quotes in my post, you deny saying what you have said and I have to respond to you and prove that you said something over and over. Too much work to go in too many circles on this.

Matt Foley · Apr 8, 2012

Grant said:
You mentioned heating the pool and i offered a very cheap and handy alternative to solar panels. I know three people who are doing just that and it works very well. I'll be using it also..

You should figure out a way to cheaply run your air conditioner and pool filter on your own. The black hose idea was intended as a friendly tip that could save you money and nothing more. Go forth and multiply.
.

someone around here painted PVC pipes black to heat pool and they melted in the Arizona sun, not naming names but he knows who he is.

I keep telling him it's a matter of square footage, if y ou wanna heat the pool just throw some black floaties into the pool.

Dittohead not! · Apr 8, 2012

EagleAye said:
Apparently, by offering a $7500 tax break "incentive" for buying a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt, the President has "decided" that you will buy one of these. I haven't bought either one yet. Does that mean the FBI will take me away soon? Maybe they will take away my birthday?

Hmmm... I haven't bought one either. I'd rather they not take me away, but they can have my birthday. I've already had way too many. I think I was better off when I had celebrated fewer of them.

EagleAye · Apr 8, 2012

Dittohead not! said:
Hmmm... I haven't bought one either. I'd rather they not take me away, but they can have my birthday. I've already had way too many. I think I was better off when I had celebrated fewer of them.

Yeah, same here. If they take a couple away will my knees stop hurting so often?

Dittohead not! · Apr 8, 2012

EagleAye said:
Yeah, same here. If they take a couple away will my knees stop hurting so often?

Absolutely, and you'll have fewer wrinkles and more hair.

sawyerloggingon · Apr 8, 2012

EagleAye said:
I can find many references to it from many sources. It's not a loophole or even part of the tax code. It's simply handing money to the oil industry...just because. Obama has been pressuring Congress to remove the subsidy, and they continue to refuse. There's no good reason to maintain it. And if there's interest in finding backroom deals, that's the place to go looking for it.

I don't like the idea of anyone selecting what car I should buy. You bristle at the thought of a president with no auto-industry experience picking cars for all of us. Why would you be comfortable with meter maids, garbage men, and office clerks making the same decision? They don't have the right to pick what car I buy either and vice versa. People also complain that by offering government assistance to Renewables, the government is selecting the winner. Well, the subsidy (listed above) and multi-Billion dollar tax breaks is proof that government has been selecting the oil industry as the winner for decades. How is this different from offering tax breaks to consumers buying EVs? At least in this case, consumers are only offered an "encouragement," rather than only a single choice of only ICE cars which amounts to a directive.

I don't know enough about this to comment on it but I will say Obama is only bringing all of this up because polls show people blame him for high gas prices and he is attempting to shift the blame and get people angry at oil companies instead of him. I also know removing any tax breaks or subsidies oil companies get will not make gas go down.

EagleAye · Apr 8, 2012

Dittohead not! said:
Absolutely, and you'll have fewer wrinkles and more hair.

That explains a lot. So many Hollywood stars speak out against the government, get birthdays taken away, stay young-looking to a ridiculous age. It all becomes clear.

EagleAye · Apr 8, 2012

sawyerloggingon said:
I don't know enough about this to comment on it but I will say Obama is only bringing all of this up because polls show people blame him for high gas prices and he is attempting to shift the blame and get people angry at oil companies instead of him. I also know removing any tax breaks or subsidies oil companies get will not make gas go down.

People have accused him of croneyism for supporting Renewables. So his response is to point out how much croneyism exists for the oil industry, that the same people (who call support for renewables croneyism) never objected to when it comes to the oil industry. So if supporting renewables is croneyism, then oil has been getting much more croneyism for FAR longer, or supporting energy industries isn't croneyism at all. People gotta pick one. Not switch the definition mid-stream.

And I'm glad you agree removing tax breaks won't make gas prices go down. This is true. By the same token, removing the taxbreaks won't make gs prices go up. So why are we sacrificing Billions to this industry if removing the tax break won't change anything? Those Billions could help work on the deficit or replace our crumbling infrastructure. Why don't we?

Arbo · Apr 8, 2012

poweRob said:
Money = power

And yes, power corrupts.

I am running an experiment to see if this can be empirically proven. So send me all your money now, and set your paychecks to deposit in my bank. Get all your friends to do the same, this is gonna take a lot of money to prove.

Grant · Apr 8, 2012

Matt Foley said:
someone around here painted PVC pipes black to heat pool and they melted in the Arizona sun, not naming names but he knows who he is.

I keep telling him it's a matter of square footage, if y ou wanna heat the pool just throw some black floaties into the pool.

Yes, that might do the trick too. It was done here in Costa Rica with good results and twice in Canada. Perhaps it was the paint as well.

Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996

Grant

Grant

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996

Grant

Grant

Born Free

Grant

Dittohead not!

master political analyst

Grant

EagleAye

Dittohead not!

master political analyst

EagleAye

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996

Matt Foley

Death2Globalists

Dittohead not!

master political analyst

EagleAye

Dittohead not!

master political analyst

sawyerloggingon

EagleAye

EagleAye

Arbo

Grant