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Solar company bankrupt despite 'win-win' DOE loan

Since you've worked in this area, what is the initial cost to the consumer to have solar panels installed? What is the reliabilty and maintainabilty of these panels?

I think folks would be more open to going in this direction if it were affordable and they could see a return on their investment. We here about solar panels and never hear about the costs and returns.


I researched it before for a house I lived in in Phoenix. You are looking at a starting costs anywhere between 20k to 30k or so to begin. Depends on if you are a solar grid tie or a solar off grid system. Off grid means you need to store your own energy and you need a battery backup to hold that energy. Much costs in having your own batter bank. If you are grid-tie that means you still use electricity no different than you do right now right off the grid but the solar system you have is selling electricity back to the electric company at the same time so if you use less than you sell, you could see a check coming your way instead of writing one for the Electric Company.

Solar panels seem to have warranties often around 10 years at the least and many many more years beyond that for some. The Photovoltaic process never degrades. What does degrade is that the sealed system you need for it to react inside which should take decades and most importantly scratches on the glass that lets the sun go through to make the PV happen. When the glass gets scratched or cloudy and whannot, that is what mostly decreases a PV panel's efficiency.

I'm thinking what they need to do is like they do in NASCAR where they have their windshields covered in layers of some 3M film and you just pull a tab when they come into pit row and when that top layer is peeled off, it's like a new windshield all over again. Do that to the PV panels. Dust them off throughout the year and then at the end of the year, peel a layer. Another analogy would be the light film added to your smartphone screen. Something like that.
 
So it seems there will be an up hill battle in this area. On the East Coast there was a plan to put wind thingys in the Atlantic, of course to make it cost effective they needed to be close to the shore, and it was stopped by some "group". They complained about having to see them and interference with sail boats.

That's the uber rich NIMBY's up in Cape Cod. I haven't kept up with that battle but I think it is still ago to make.
 
I researched it before for a house I lived in in Phoenix. You are looking at a starting costs anywhere between 20k to 30k or so to begin. Depends on if you are a solar grid tie or a solar off grid system. Off grid means you need to store your own energy and you need a battery backup to hold that energy. Much costs in having your own batter bank. If you are grid-tie that means you still use electricity no different than you do right now right off the grid but the solar system you have is selling electricity back to the electric company at the same time so if you use less than you sell, you could see a check coming your way instead of writing one for the Electric Company.

Solar panels seem to have warranties often around 10 years at the least and many many more years beyond that for some. The Photovoltaic process never degrades. What does degrade is that the sealed system you need for it to react inside which should take decades and most importantly scratches on the glass that lets the sun go through to make the PV happen. When the glass gets scratched or cloudy and whannot, that is what mostly decreases a PV panel's efficiency.

I'm thinking what they need to do is like they do in NASCAR where they have their windshields covered in layers of some 3M film and you just pull a tab when they come into pit row and when that top layer is peeled off, it's like a new windshield all over again. Do that to the PV panels. Dust them off throughout the year and then at the end of the year, peel a layer. Another analogy would be the light film added to your smartphone screen. Something like that.


If this is true, the 10 year reliabilty of the panels, it doesn't seem anymore expensive that replacing an HVAC, yes? What is the initial cost? That may be the prohibitive in the equation.

Heating and cooling your home, which is what most regular folks have to worry about, is a monthly expense. If the original cost of the solar panels were equal to the expense of their current system it should be a no brainer. Why are they not catching on, if this is true?
 
Here you go. This list isn't complete, but it's damning enough.


Energy subsidies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Budget hawks: Does US need to give gas and oil companies $41 billion a year? - CSMonitor.com

It looks to me like Chicago politics has got nothing compared to Washington politics when it comes to fleecing the taxpayers.

Lets start with forign tax credits. I earn my money in USA so of course it doesn't apply to me but it applies to anyone earning money overseas not just oil companys.

"US taxpayers claimed over $90 billion of foreign tax credits on US individual and corporate tax returns in 2005. Foreign tax credits allow US taxpayers to avoid or reduce double taxation. You may choose to take a deduction for foreign taxes paid instead of choosing a credit. In most cases, it is to your advantage to take foreign income taxes as a tax credit."

Now for credit for production of non conventional fuels. You are correct that this is a tax break only oil company's get but it was implemented by the gov for very specific reasons and has done exactly what it was intended to do. Seems fine to me.The Nonconventional Fuels (Section 29) Tax Credit went
into effect in 1980, following energy shortages and deep
concern about American dependence on imported oil.
Congress sought to encourage production of oil and
natural gas from “nonconventional” sources, such as
Devonian shale, tight formations, and coalbeds. These
deposits are unusually expensive to produce.
The Gas Technology Institute (GTI) studied Section 29’s
history and projected the impact of an extension of the
credit on domestic supply. The GTI study concluded that:

Passage of the original Section 29 led to a tripling in the production of
nonconventional gas, as well as innovations in drilling and completion
technology.






As for oil and gas exploration and development expenses, that is the same cost of doing business tax breaks we all get in the business world. I just wrote off a new motor for my sawmill, same thing.
 
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The only idiotic thing to do is fail to fight back. WE should be the one's exporting the latest and greatest energy technology, not China. Only an idiot would fail to support an industry with so many lucrative contracts around the world. China isn't killing a chance at huge money just to deface one of their political figures. Their going balls out to WIN economically, and that's what we should be doing, not pissing in our own sandbox.

Fail to fight back against what?

Other countries will watch the American government waste billions of tax dollars and then, when the technology has reached the point where it's worthwhile purchasing, they will do so.

This phony race with the Chinese is a way to dupe the poor American tax payer into thinking they must win this race while allowing free private enterprise to fill the void, or the Chinese, is far preferable. Let the Chinese manufacture great solar panels and then copy them, like the Chinese do, or improve on them, like the Japanese do.

Americans have a truly corrupt government, and far too naives make up phony arguments to support these criminals.
 
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Now for credit for production of non conventional fuels. You are correct that this is a tax break only oil company's get but it was implemented by the gov for very specific reasons and has done exactly what it was intended to do. Seems fine to me.The Nonconventional Fuels (Section 29) Tax Credit went
into effect in 1980, following energy shortages and deep
concern about American dependence on imported oil.
Congress sought to encourage production of oil and
natural gas from “nonconventional” sources, such as
Devonian shale, tight formations, and coalbeds. These
deposits are unusually expensive to produce.
The Gas Technology Institute (GTI) studied Section 29’s
history and projected the impact of an extension of the
credit on domestic supply. The GTI study concluded that:

Passage of the original Section 29 led to a tripling in the production of
nonconventional gas, as well as innovations in drilling and completion
technology.



This sounds like the taxpayers are paying out Billions for research and development in the oil industry. Yet when the government does the same for Wind and Solar (and far less for these industries), you guys cry "foul!" You claim that if wind and solar needs so much money to get started then it's not viable anyway. Yet the fully-developed and highly profitable oil industry gets $14.1 billion from the taxpayers every year! And you're okay with that? Sounds like a double-standard.

As for oil and gas exploration and development expenses, that is the same cost of doing business tax breaks we all get in the business world. I just wrote off a new motor for my sawmill, same thing.

Well if you feel that it makes sense for taxpayers to pay for the cost of running a business, why would you oppose solar companies getting money that helps running a solar business? Why is it acceptable for taxpayers to pay the operating costs of the fully developed oil business, and NOT acceptable for starting a solar business?

And you didn't address $3.6 Billion subsidy given the highly profitable oil industry. That goes ONLY to the oil industry. It is directly GIVING them money with no need to ever pay it back. Why are we still doing this? Why complain about the burgeoning technologies of Solar energy and EVs getting government help when oil gets far more help?
 
Fail to fight back against what?

This phony race with the Chinese is a way to dupe the poor American tax payer into thinking they must win this race while allowing free private enterprise to fill the void, or the Chinese, is far preferable. Let the Chinese manufacture great solar panels and then copy them, like the Chinese do, or improve on them, like the Japanese do.

Americans have a truly corrupt government, and far too naives make up phony arguments to support these criminals.

Try to remember that China has the #2 economy in the world. They desperately want to be #1, and they will NOT fight fair to get there. Now while you may think the best thing to do is passively spread your legs and let them rape us, and pretend to like it, I completely disagree. If the Chinese become the #1 economy because we became economic pacifists, you can be sure we'll end up paying for our oil in Chinese Yuan, not dollars. I guarantee you will not be able to pretend liking that.

Anybody knows that in business the guy who opens a market first is damned difficult to remove once they're already there. Even a superior competing product has a hard time breaking into the same market. Secondly, you think it's a good idea to buy Chinese solar panels for OUR country's lifeblood energy? Are you freakin' kidding me? If you let them OWN the solar industry, you don't think they'll gouge the **** out of us when we finally wake up? You KNOW they will do that.

There are many countries out there, with Billions in hand ready to give it away. Who cares if Solar cost 3 cents more than oil or 80 cents more than oil? If people want it, give it to them. If I can convince you that a rubber band with a magnet in it will restore your health and vitality (with regular diet and exercise), but it's all in your mind, really. Who cares? Give it to them! Money made is money made. I can't believe that the Communist Chinese have got the whole Capitalism thing worked out better than Americans. It's downright shameful.
 
This sounds like the taxpayers are paying out Billions for research and development in the oil industry. Yet when the government does the same for Wind and Solar (and far less for these industries), you guys cry "foul!" You claim that if wind and solar needs so much money to get started then it's not viable anyway. Yet the fully-developed and highly profitable oil industry gets $14.1 billion from the taxpayers every year! And you're okay with that? Sounds like a double-standard.



Well if you feel that it makes sense for taxpayers to pay for the cost of running a business, why would you oppose solar companies getting money that helps running a solar business? Why is it acceptable for taxpayers to pay the operating costs of the fully developed oil business, and NOT acceptable for starting a solar business?

And you didn't address $3.6 Billion subsidy given the highly profitable oil industry. That goes ONLY to the oil industry. It is directly GIVING them money with no need to ever pay it back. Why are we still doing this? Why complain about the burgeoning technologies of Solar energy and EVs getting government help when oil gets far more help?

I responded to all 3 so called subsidies you brought up and you made me work to do it too, I had to Goggle stuff damnit. You bring up subsidizing solar company's vs the alternative fuel tax break oil comps get. The oil company's get a 3 dollar a barrel tax break for non conventional fuel produced in this country whereas solar company's get money handed to them upfront with no guarantee of success. If solar was given tax breaks on a percent of energy they bring to market I would be fine with it. What seems to happen though is solar company's are handed gobs of tax payer dollars as political payoff.
 
This sounds like the taxpayers are paying out Billions for research and development in the oil industry. Yet when the government does the same for Wind and Solar (and far less for these industries), you guys cry "foul!" You claim that if wind and solar needs so much money to get started then it's not viable anyway. Yet the fully-developed and highly profitable oil industry gets $14.1 billion from the taxpayers every year! And you're okay with that? Sounds like a double-standard.

It's for sure the American government has got its fingers in a lot of pies and you seem to approve of that. If they give it to one industry, why not another? Correct?

Car Company Gets U.S. Loan, Builds Cars In Finland - ABC News

What's amazing is that OWS are complaining about corruption on Wall Street while the government is bailing out Wall Street and will borrow money from the Chinese to compete with the Chinese. The spin is that it's for the 'working man'.

The people are $16 trillion in debt, and counting, and will never be in the position of bailing out the elderly, the infirm, etc. The United States is the most indebted nation since money was invented and, incredibly, many Americans seem to like it that way.

Well if you feel that it makes sense for taxpayers to pay for the cost of running a business, why would you oppose solar companies getting money that helps running a solar business? Why is it acceptable for taxpayers to pay the operating costs of the fully developed oil business, and NOT acceptable for starting a solar business?

Why not any business? The jobs have to be 'saved', right? And who else can do that but the politicians in Washington?

And you didn't address $3.6 Billion subsidy given the highly profitable oil industry. That goes ONLY to the oil industry. It is directly GIVING them money with no need to ever pay it back. Why are we still doing this? Why complain about the burgeoning technologies of Solar energy and EVs getting government help when oil gets far more help?

Yes, why complain about any of it? If one sector is getting public money then they all should. Makes sense, huh?
 
so, 20 grand for solar still on the grid (no storage batteries to buy)... a home improvement guy quoted me 12 for enough to run an air conditioner, but let's use the higher figure just for grins.

I have friends who have big houses populated by kids and have backyard pools. They tell me their power bills hit $600 a month in the summer time. Of course, that's the most expensive, but let's average it out to half that for the year. That's $3,600 a year in potential savings. Now, being still on the grid, there would still be some costs, so let's say they save 3/4 of that, or $2,400 a year for 10 years. That's a pretty good return on investment, it seems to me. You might make more in the stock market, of course, but then it's likely that you'll still have those solar panels in ten years, and still be saving that $2,400 a year, or more as the cost of power goes up. Sell the house, and the solar panels add to the value.

Seems pretty financially sound to me.
 
I responded to all 3 so called subsidies you brought up

And thank you for responding to the three. Well, perhaps the $3.6 Billion subsidy part got buried in the text. I'm not knocking you for missing it, just still interested in your response to it.

...and you made me work to do it too, I had to Goggle stuff damnit.

:lol: My posts usually take forever to show up 'cause I'm researching stuff. It works out. My wife can watch her chick flick without my snores distracting her.

You bring up subsidizing solar company's vs the alternative fuel tax break oil comps get. The oil company's get a 3 dollar a barrel tax break for non conventional fuel produced in this country whereas solar company's get money handed to them upfront with no guarantee of success. If solar was given tax breaks on a percent of energy they bring to market I would be fine with it. What seems to happen though is solar company's are handed gobs of tax payer dollars as political payoff.

Can you understand that the Billions paid out to an already profitable oil industry, and written permanently into tax code by Senators, looks an awful lot like a payoff?
 
Then change it.

We've tried. The GOP keeps blocking it.


Do Republicans Realize That Keystone Pipeline Won’t Bring Gas to U.S.?

At a congressional hearing in December, Markey asked the president of TransCanada if he would agree to allowing Keystone XL oil and its refined products to stay in the U.S. He said no. So Markey then proposed an amendment to that effect, and Republicans said no—that it couldn’t be done, because the market for oil is not just domestic; it’s global. What Canada wants to do, says Markey, “is create a connection between Alberta and Asia and use the United States as the place where the pipeline gets constructed. And so if that’s all we are is a middleman in this transaction, then the American people should know that.”​


"Drill baby Drill" is short for, "Make my campaign donors richer." That is all. It has nothing at all to do with making our lives any better, gas any cheaper, making us energy independent or anything benefiting the USofA.
 
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If this is true, the 10 year reliabilty of the panels, it doesn't seem anymore expensive that replacing an HVAC, yes? What is the initial cost? That may be the prohibitive in the equation.

Heating and cooling your home, which is what most regular folks have to worry about, is a monthly expense. If the original cost of the solar panels were equal to the expense of their current system it should be a no brainer. Why are they not catching on, if this is true?

Solar panels aren't dirt cheap but they are probably the lower costs of the equation. The big costs are the batteries if you want a battery back-up or an off-grid system then the DC to AC inverter because electricity is generally made in DC form but is transmitted in AC form (DC doesn't travel distances well). Then the solar panels. (and you'll probably have to get a different meter that spins forwards and backwards so that it can meter the energy you use as well as the energy you make.)

Depending on where you live you can find some great bennies for solarizing. State kick-backs can go in upwards of 50% of the costs. Thing is you have to front the costs then get the 50% back later. Don't know how many are doing that at 50% these days but it does happen. Then a tax rebate also at the fed level sometimes too which helps. In Cali, some companies have plans where they solarize your home and they recoup the costs in later I think from the electric company. Instead of you getting the check from the electric company they take it until it is paid off and the normal solar pv installation pays itself of within 10 years give or take a 2 or three years.

You gotta be wary and know your state's rules on solar and the electric companies. Some states have it as a law that the electric company has to pay you for the electricity you make. Many states don't have that and then the electric company just screws you. They will let you pay your bill off for the energy you used but then pocket the surplus you made for them with no payout. Or just take your surplus and add it up over the year so that you have a surplus at the end of the year and then zero your account to start the new year... no check at all. Watch yourself on that.
 
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Fail to fight back against what?

Other countries will watch the American government waste billions of tax dollars and then, when the technology has reached the point where it's worthwhile purchasing, they will do so.

This phony race with the Chinese is a way to dupe the poor American tax payer into thinking they must win this race while allowing free private enterprise to fill the void, or the Chinese, is far preferable. Let the Chinese manufacture great solar panels and then copy them, like the Chinese do, or improve on them, like the Japanese do.

Americans have a truly corrupt government, and far too naives make up phony arguments to support these criminals.

What's naive about taking the lead in manufacturing new tech? We did it for generations and its pretty much what put us out in front last century.
 
Try to remember that China has the #2 economy in the world. They desperately want to be #1, and they will NOT fight fair to get there. Now while you may think the best thing to do is passively spread your legs and let them rape us, and pretend to like it, I completely disagree. If the Chinese become the #1 economy because we became economic pacifists, you can be sure we'll end up paying for our oil in Chinese Yuan, not dollars. I guarantee you will not be able to pretend liking that.

So you feel that the United States can be the number one economy in the world by having Barack Obama give public money to a variety of companies? Why would you arrive at that conclusion? Do you feel that he and the people around him have the business experience and acumen to get the job done? Of course not. They are Chicago hucksters.

The US is more in debt than they can ever repay. You wanted to be number one? You can forget that. In ten years Americans will be lucky to be in the top 20.
Anybody knows that in business the guy who opens a market first is damned difficult to remove once they're already there. Even a superior competing product has a hard time breaking into the same market.

That's not true at all. Even a little bit. The economies of Japan and Germany were destroyed by WWII while the United States was top dog. Within a generation they had both caught up substantially and now are selling cars and cameras to the Americans. The Chinese, while on their way to becoming the number one economy, are beating the US in every sector, except the service industry.
Secondly, you think it's a good idea to buy Chinese solar panels for OUR country's lifeblood energy? Are you freakin' kidding me? If you let them OWN the solar industry, you don't think they'll gouge the **** out of us when we finally wake up? You KNOW they will do that.

Nobody will OWN the solar industry, just as no one will OWN the auto industry or camera industry. Do you think other countries will be unable to make solar panels once the technology is available? Of course they can, just as they do in every other industry and market.

There are many countries out there, with Billions in hand ready to give it away. Who cares if Solar cost 3 cents more than oil or 80 cents more than oil? If people want it, give it to them. If I can convince you that a rubber band with a magnet in it will restore your health and vitality (with regular diet and exercise), but it's all in your mind, really. Who cares? Give it to them! Money made is money made. I can't believe that the Communist Chinese have got the whole Capitalism thing worked out better than Americans. It's downright shameful.

It is shameful, I agree, but Americans seem to have forgotten what made their country great. It was a free people creating the greatest economy in the history of mankind, and they frittered it all away by thinking they could change the capitalist system and yet things would somehow remain the same. They mis-educated their young, often making them ashamed of their country and its history, and now they will pay. The Chinese learned from the Americans but the Americans don't seem to have learned from anyone and now, despite all the evidence to the contrary, they seem to think government can look after them. This sort of ignorance is indeed shameful.
 
so, 20 grand for solar still on the grid (no storage batteries to buy)... a home improvement guy quoted me 12 for enough to run an air conditioner, but let's use the higher figure just for grins.

I have friends who have big houses populated by kids and have backyard pools. They tell me their power bills hit $600 a month in the summer time. Of course, that's the most expensive, but let's average it out to half that for the year. That's $3,600 a year in potential savings. Now, being still on the grid, there would still be some costs, so let's say they save 3/4 of that, or $2,400 a year for 10 years. That's a pretty good return on investment, it seems to me. You might make more in the stock market, of course, but then it's likely that you'll still have those solar panels in ten years, and still be saving that $2,400 a year, or more as the cost of power goes up. Sell the house, and the solar panels add to the value.

Seems pretty financially sound to me.

You can run the water through a black water hose, specific to the size of the pool, for far less and with as much efficiency.
 
What's naive about taking the lead in manufacturing new tech? We did it for generations and its pretty much what put us out in front last century.

Free enterprise put you there, not crony capitalism.
 
It's for sure the American government has got its fingers in a lot of pies and you seem to approve of that. If they give it to one industry, why not another? Correct?

How about now that one industry is running along famously and making a profit, take government fingers out of that pie, and put not nearly as much into a different pie, and not complain about the savings?

The people are $16 trillion in debt, and counting, and will never be in the position of bailing out the elderly, the infirm, etc. The United States is the most indebted nation since money was invented and, incredibly, many Americans seem to like it that way.
Part of the reason we got there was to fund a conflict that insured the free flow of oil. That multi-Trillion dollar oil subsidy is one people don't want to admit to, but it's still there. And we aren't going to remove that debt by continuing to fund foreign economies with our oil money. If we make our own energy then our money isn't constantly flowing OUT of the country and it remains WITHIN the country. Additionally, if we invest in making energy better than anyone else, which I know we can, then we can win the foreign energy contracts that will ultimately bring money INTO the country. That will go a lot further to removing the debt than always investing in the energy other countries rather than our own.

Why not any business? The jobs have to be 'saved', right? And who else can do that but the politicians in Washington? Yes, why complain about any of it? If one sector is getting public money then they all should. Makes sense, huh?

Subsidies are intended to help a critical heavy industry pay the huge startup costs to get them going. Oil for energy has been around for 100 years now. I think we can safely say the oil industry is past the "startup" stage. So let's remove the subsidies and tax breaks from the no longer "startup" oil industry and give a fraction of that to the Renewables industry. The balance can be committed to removing the national debt. Make sense?
 
And thank you for responding to the three. Well, perhaps the $3.6 Billion subsidy part got buried in the text. I'm not knocking you for missing it, just still interested in your response to it.



:lol: My posts usually take forever to show up 'cause I'm researching stuff. It works out. My wife can watch her chick flick without my snores distracting her.



Can you understand that the Billions paid out to an already profitable oil industry, and written permanently into tax code by Senators, looks an awful lot like a payoff?

I found the $3.6 billion thing but theres not enough specifics for me to research and respond to. If it is something like mining laws left over from the 1800s where mining company's lease claims for 5 bucks an acre I would oppose it but I have no idea what it is exactly Obama is talking about here.
 
We've tried. The GOP keeps blocking it.


Do Republicans Realize That Keystone Pipeline Won’t Bring Gas to U.S.?

At a congressional hearing in December, Markey asked the president of TransCanada if he would agree to allowing Keystone XL oil and its refined products to stay in the U.S. He said no. So Markey then proposed an amendment to that effect, and Republicans said no—that it couldn’t be done, because the market for oil is not just domestic; it’s global. What Canada wants to do, says Markey, “is create a connection between Alberta and Asia and use the United States as the place where the pipeline gets constructed. And so if that’s all we are is a middleman in this transaction, then the American people should know that.”​


"Drill baby Drill" is short for, "Make my campaign donors richer." That is all. It has nothing at all to do with making our lives any better, gas any cheaper, making us energy independent or anything benefiting the USofA.

There is often very good money to be made by being 'the middle man'.

And if you are aware of any corruption between any industry and politicians you should speak up against it. But innuendos don't cut it.
 
How about now that one industry is running along famously and making a profit, take government fingers out of that pie, and put not nearly as much into a different pie, and not complain about the savings?

Why not have all companies obey the laws and government kept at arms length?
Subsidies are intended to help a critical heavy industry pay the huge startup costs to get them going. Oil for energy has been around for 100 years now. I think we can safely say the oil industry is past the "startup" stage. So let's remove the subsidies and tax breaks from the no longer "startup" oil industry and give a fraction of that to the Renewables industry. The balance can be committed to removing the national debt. Make sense?

No, it doesn't make sense to me. Oil subsidies can be removed but private companies can certainly learn to make solar panels.
 
Free enterprise put you there, not crony capitalism.


Bull


Crap


You have bought a load of horse manure and you clearly aren't a good farmer... so to speak.

Subsidizing isn't exactly cronyism. It can be. Lord knows here in corrupt as hell New Mexico it sure often seems like it is. You subsidize the direction the country should go. That's how the trans-continental railroad was made. That's how we got to the moon. That is how the highway system got built. That is how oil got going.

If you stop buying into the all or none platitudes of all government is evil and all private industry free market works great... you'll see that a cooperative can be the answer... or at least a catalyst to creating a great future just as it has for us in the past.
 
There is often very good money to be made by being 'the middle man'.

Oh I'm sure there is... but in this case all that money won't benefit hardly anyone but he who owns the pipeline itself.

And if you are aware of any corruption between any industry and politicians you should speak up against it. But innuendos don't cut it.

Don't know what this has to do with anything. Never said there isn't corruption. Like I said, I'm in NM and it is allllll around me here. Newspaper is generally front-paged with government or government/business corruption all the time.

In fact, here's today's front page:


Treasurer candidate charged with fraud

Oliver Garcia, who is seeking the post of Santa Fe County Treasurer in the June Democratic primary, has been charged with six counts of fraud for allegedly using fake vouchers for prepaid car washes.

Democratic Party Chairman Richard Ellenberg issued a statement Friday asking Garcia, a deputy treasurer, to withdraw from the race.

According to court documents, Garcia and his daughter, Felicia Garcia, used reproductions of prepaid car wash tickets purchased by the Treasurer's Office to have their personal vehicles washed at Oilstop on Cerrillos Road.​


Threw his future away for free car washes. They do the stupidest **** around here. Downtown Santa Fe... if you can find parking, you are paying for it. Recent scandal, over 50% of the money collected from the parking meters is stolen by the parking meter people.
 
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Bull Crap You have bought a load of horse manure and you clearly aren't a good farmer... so to speak.

Whatever.
Subsidizing isn't exactly cronyism.

Of course I didn't say that.

It can be.

It is right now.
Lord knows here in corrupt as hell New Mexico it sure often seems like it is.

It's Chinatown.
You subsidize the direction the country should go.

And only the government, with experienced people like Barack Obama, can determine that direction?

That's how the trans-continental railroad was made. That's how we got to the moon. That is how the highway system got built. That is how oil got going.

That's partly true. Partly.
If you stop buying into the all or none platitudes of all government is evil and all private industry free market works great

Of course I didn't say that either, did I?

All you're doing in substantiating the claim I made earlier about the US education system.

... you'll see that a cooperative can be the answer... or at least a catalyst to creating a great future just as it has for us in the past.

Yes, America as one big happy and prosperous Kibbutz. That might work.
 
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