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A Planned Parenthood Clinic In Wisconsin Was BOMBED Last Night

Who bombed the Wisonsin Planned Parenthood?


  • Total voters
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Yes, supporting legal abortions or risk of major health problems for the woman and extreme fetal abnormalities is considered pro choice.

No, they *ONLY* support legal abortion when the woman's health is at risk. This is a position I've never seen you suggest was "pro-choice" before. In fact, you have only indicated the exact opposite.

Example: I'm sure you would in no way suggest JayDubya was "pro-choice", but am pretty sure he supports a similar position


Those 2 reasons along with Rape are the only reasons I would consider an having abortion.

We are not talking about personal choices, we are discussing *LEGAL* positions. The UMC *LEGAL* position is that abortion should only be legal in the context of extreme deformity or parental health. But keep trying to work and word your way around those facts


I have always strongly supported and advocated contraceptive education and birth control methods as the best means for making abortions rare.

Which is ABSOLUTELY irrelevant to what we are discussing
 
...

We are not talking about personal choices, we are discussing *LEGAL* positions. The UMC *LEGAL* position is that abortion should only be legal in the context of extreme deformity or parental health. But keep trying to work and word your way around those facts

The Book of Discipline is about the Social Principles the Chuch teaches its members.
It is not about their LEGAL policy.
Background:

The first reference to abortion in official proceedings of the General Conference came in 1968, when a study document titled "Church and Family" was adopted. This did not have the force of a pronouncement by the denomination but indicated the direction in which the church was moving.

The Social Principles of the United Methodist Church first dealt with abortion in 1972.


Found in the Book of Discipline, the Social Principles are a "prayerful and thoughtful effort on the part of the General Conference to speak to the human issues in the contemporary world from a sound biblical and theological foundation as historically demonstrated in United Methodist traditions."


The principles are “a call to faithfulness and are intended to be instructive and persuasive in the best of the prophetic spirit;
however, they are not church law.


The Social Principles are a call to all members of The United Methodist Church to a prayerful, studied dialogue of faith and practice.” They represent the mind of the General Conference on social issues. The General Conference amended the 1972 statement on abortion in 1976, 1980, 1984, 1988, 1992, 1996 and 2000. [more]


Abortion
The beginning of life and the ending of life are the God-given boundaries of human existence. While individuals have always had some degree of control over when they would die, they now have the awesome power to determine when and even whether new individuals will be born. [more]

Ministry to Those Who Have Experienced an Abortion
We urge local pastors to become informed about the symptoms and behaviors associated with post-abortion stress. We further encourage local churches to make available contact information for counseling agencies that offer programs to address post-abortion stress for all seeking help. [more]

Right to Health Care
We affirm the right of men and women to have access to comprehensive reproductive health/family planning information and services which will serve as a means to prevent unplanned pregnancies, reduce abortions and prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS. [more]

From the Book of Resolutions of The United Methodist Church (2004)

Responsible Parenthood
We affirm the principle of responsible parenthood. The family, in its varying forms, constitutes the primary focus of love, acceptance, and nurture, bringing fulfillment to parents and child. Healthful and whole personhood develops as one is loved, responds to love, and in that relationship comes to wholeness as a child of God. [more]

Healing of Post-Abortion Stress

WHEREAS, we recognize that there is a legal right to an abortion, we also recognize that some regret that event later in life, … [more]

Support for the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

WHEREAS, The United Methodist Church was a founding member of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice in 1973, and … [more]


WHEREAS, the General Board of Church and Society and the Women's Division of the General Board of Global Ministries are currently members of the Religious Coalition, along with national organizations from 14 denominations, including the Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church (USA), United Church of Christ, Unitarian Universalism, Reform and Conservative Judaism, and

WHEREAS, these Coalition member organizations hold a wide variety of views regarding policies relating to specific issues of reproductive choice such as when life and personhood begins but, nevertheless, share common religious values, have official pro-choice policies, and are committed to working together to ensure reproductive choice for all persons through the moral power of religious communities, and

WHEREAS, the Religious Coalition supports the right of all persons to have access to a wide range of reproductive health services including sexuality education, family planning services, contraception, abortion services, affordable and quality health and child care, and

WHEREAS, the Religious Coalition's All Options Clergy Counseling program trains clergy of many faiths to assist women in discerning the course of action that they believe is best in a case of unintended pregnancy, and

WHEREAS, internationally, the Religious Coalition is an accredited non-governmental organization with the United Nations Department of Public Information which supports international family planning services in such areas as South Africa where the Coalition works with churches on HIV/AIDS education and prevention, and

WHEREAS, the Coalition's efforts help counter attempts to enact restrictive legislation that would impose specific religious views about abortion and reproductive health on persons of all faiths, and

WHEREAS, factions within the United Methodist Church whose stated goal is to have the General Conference go on record in opposition to all abortions regardless of the reason are working towards the goal of severing all United Methodist ties with the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice;

Therefore, be it resolved, that the United Methodist 2004 General Conference go on record in support of the work of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, and
Be it further resolved, that the 2004 General Conference affirm
the continued membership of the General Board of Church and Society and the Women's Division of the General Board of Global Ministries
in the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice.

Abortion: Overview - UMC.org
 
The Book of Discipline is about the Social Principles the Chuch teaches its members.
It is not about their LEGAL policy.

1) then why would you cite it here in a discussion on what the UMC supports as legal policy??

2)Please read this, very slowly: " In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the ***LEGAL*** option of abortion under proper medical procedures. ****We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection.****"


Abortion
 
Yes, supporting legal abortions or risk of major health problems for the woman and extreme fetal abnormalities is considered pro choice.

No, it really isn't.

That's "pro-life" (anti-abortion) with exceptions... but not even that, those are exceptions that virtually everyone agrees with, far moreso even than people agree with a rape exception.

Hell, even I believe in following the basic principle of triage and saving the patient you can save, but by your standard above, I'm "pro-choice" (pro-abortion). And if you're calling ME pro-abortion, if you were correct in your assertion, there really wouldn't be anyone left who isn't...



Of course, we have seen folks like George Tiller who used such exceptions along with his rubber stamp partner to do loads of "medically neccessary" killings that weren't. At all. So it is clear that such an exemption would need to be policed diligently and with severe consequences...
 
1) then why would you cite it here in a discussion on what the UMC supports as legal policy??

2)Please read this, very slowly: " In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the ***LEGAL*** option of abortion under proper medical procedures. ****We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection.****"


Abortion

The UMC does not support illegal abortions but in such cases ...

we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures.[/B]

they went on to affirm they did not support late term D & E :
We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life. We call all Christians to a searching and prayerful inquiry into the sorts of conditions that may warrant abortion. [/B]

Abortion
 
No, it really isn't.

That's "pro-life" (anti-abortion) with exceptions... but not even that, those are exceptions that virtually everyone agrees with, far moreso even than people agree with a rape exception.

There you have Minnie, you are now claiming JayDubya is pro-choice. Something I'm sure you never even considered uttering, even in jest, prior to today ....
 
The UMC does not support illegal abortions but in such cases ...



they went on to affirm they did not support late term D & E :


Abortion

If I write "i support the legalization of Marijuana. But I am unequivocally against cocaine and heroin" I am clearly contrasting the later with my support of the former (hence, I do not support it's legalization ....


The UMC does not support illegal abortions but in such cases ...

my, cod, these mental gymnastics
 
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If I write "i support the legalization of Marijuana. But I am unequivocally against cocaine and heroin" I am clearly contrasting the later with my support of the former (hence, I do not support it's legalization ....




my, cod, these mental gymnastics
Just telling it like it is.
That is why it is important to keep abortion legal and safe for the woman while promoting contraceptive birth control to help make legal abortions rare.
 
Just telling it like it is.
That is why it is important to keep abortion legal and safe for the woman while promoting contraceptive birth control to help make legal abortions rare.

Huh?

12345
 
Huh?

12345

You have trouble with reading and comprehending the American English language.
This is not the first time you did not understand what is written.
 
You have trouble with reading and comprehending the American English language.
This is not the first time you did not understand what is written.

This is not the first time what you have said did not make sense, neither standalone on its own merit, nor as a salient response to what you were quoting.
 
The members know they are a part of the RCRC.

Here are some Q & A about the RCRC from

UMW-Resource - United Methodist Women and the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

I don't know how this is hard for you to grasp. UMW =/= UMC Notice how the last letter in the acronyms is different?

Nor does anything you posted in that question-answer dispute anything we have pointed out to you. You are attempting to expand the definition of pro-choice to include large segments of the pro-life movement in order to claim their membership for credibility purposes.
 
The UMC does not support illegal abortions but in such cases ...

they went on to affirm they did not support late term D & E :

Abortion

Exactly. In cases such as life-of-the-mother or fetal-deformity-incompatible-with-life, they support the option of abortion, and want to make sure that it is done by properly qualified doctors. That is precisely my stance, and JayDubya's as well - your attempt to lump them under "pro-choice" is to define pro-choice so broadly that it ceases to have any meaning at all.
 
Exactly. In cases such as life-of-the-mother or fetal-deformity-incompatible-with-life, they support the option of abortion, and want to make sure that it is done by properly qualified doctors. That is precisely my stance, and JayDubya's as well - your attempt to lump them under "pro-choice" is to define pro-choice so broadly that it ceases to have any meaning at all.

IOW, you believe that "pro-life" means "murder is OK is some circumstances"
 
From the United Methodist Reporter :


Case ‘is’ a horror, but no reason to leave RCRC

May 6, 2013
By Steve Copley, Special Contributor…

The Kermit Gosnell case is as horrible as you think it is. And it illustrates precisely why it should not be used to argue for further restriction of access.

Women living in poverty in Philadelphia felt that Gosnell was their only option when they needed an abortion, in part because of the current restrictions on Medicaid funding and the dearth of accessible and affordable abortion providers.

Using Gosnell as an excuse to further restrict abortion care just creates more unprincipled, back alley charlatans like him who are willing to take advantage of women in desperate circumstances. Gosnell’s case does not show a slippery slope to infanticide; rather, it is a window into a not-too-distant past where women were permanently injured or—too often—died from illegal abortions.


As a pastor in the South Central Jurisdiction,

I’m glad our denomination is involved in the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice because the mission and work of RCRC so clearly fits United Methodists’ position on women’s health, and specifically abortion care, as outlined in the Book of Discipline.

Like many of you, I believe that abortion should be legal, safe and rare.


One way to accomplish the “rare” part of that belief is comprehensive sexual education. The Book of Discipline says “(T)he Church should support the family in providing age-appropriate education regarding sexuality to children, youth and adults.” (¶161.F) RCRC has done faithful work around sex-ed that is both age and denominationally appropriate so that young women and men aren’t faced with having to make a decision about abortion in the first place.

I know of no other organization inside or outside the denomination that helps us meet that mandate.


The Book of Discipline makes several references to concepts such as self-determination, informed Christian conscience, and thoughtful and prayerful consideration regarding abortion. Those actions are difficult to effect without access to a full range of reproductive health care services. As a coalition, RCRC believes that access to reproductive health care services should be readily available to all people so that we can all experience God’s good gift of sexuality with joy and responsibility, health and wholeness.

One passage from the Book of Discipline that is particularly meaningful to me as someone who pastors those living in poverty is also in the section on abortion: “We call all Christians to a searching and prayerful inquiry into the sorts of conditions that may cause them to consider abortion. The Church shall offer ministries to reduce unintended pregnancies. We commit our Church to continue to provide nurturing ministries to those who terminate a pregnancy, to those in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and to those who give birth.” (¶161.J) For decades, RCRC has been conducting trainings for clergy in helping women deal with these difficult decisions, as well as in times of reproductive loss.

Being “reluctant to approve abortion,” as our Book of Discipline says, is an indication of the careful thought that a woman undertakes when considering the ending of a pregnancy. But we agree that “. . . we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother and the unborn child. We recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures.” (¶161.J) Indeed, this particular passage models the behavior of recognizing the gravity of the situation, and then thoughtfully and prayerfully proceeding in partnership with loved ones, clergy and medical professionals.

It’s important to note here that Gosnell’s actions were not proper and accepted medical procedures, and he in fact is not certified as an OB/GYN.

As United Methodists, we are not called to the easy answers, but rather called to bring our prayers, presence, gifts, service and witness to our Church specifically, and by extension, to God’s vast and complex world.

The reasons a woman would choose an abortion are rarely simple or easy, and are made in an environment colored by many factors, including poverty, race, education and class, as well as access to reproductive health care. RCRC’s recent expansion into a frame of reproductive justice

includes not only the moral agency of people to make their own decisions about their reproductive lives, but also now a commitment to change the environment in which people make those very decisions.


Given the UMC’s long history of social justice and working to help people at the margins, this is a good fit for us—and a good fit to bring our unique voice as a member of the coalition that makes up RCRC.


We’re also called to witness to Christ’s love. We live the gospel best when we do so with action—action that creates an environment where people are able to exercise their conscience with as few barriers as possible.

The Rev. Copley is an ordained elder in the Arkansas Conference, and serves as executive director of the Arkansas Interfaith Conference. scopley438

Case ‘is’ a horror, but no reason to leave RCRC - The United Methodist Reporter
 
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Minnie, that is a UMC oriented newspaper (I'm not even sure it's official). It doesn't establish UMC policy no more than a Glenn Greenwald Op-Ed in reason magazine would dictate the official position of the libertarian party (they are all seperate entities holding distinct positions, though affiliated to some degree). This is particularly relevant with an organization like the UMC, which allows it's individual members to disagree with central *church* positions
 
This comes just before the Republican primary Tuesday. My bet is that this was a political statement, but who made it? Answer the poll.

Article is here.
What we need is some common sense bomb control to get these bombs off the streets.
 
IOW, you believe that "pro-life" means "murder is OK is some circumstances"

:shrug: I've always said that you get trade offs when you have to decide between killing one or killing another - that dominates my discussion (for example) of Collateral Damage when we talk about the drone campaigns. I simply don't believe in killing children because they are inconvenient.
 
general board of church and sociaety=/=UMC. It's an organization *within* the UMC and does not speak for the UMC as a whole

I agree the general board of church and sociaety=/=UMC but
the United Methodist General Conference went on record in support of the work of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice.


The General Conference does speak for the United Methodist Church.

General Conference meets every four years and is the only entity that speaks for The United Methodist Church.

How General Conference Works UMC.org
 
I agree the general board of church and sociaety=/=UMC but
the United Methodist General Conference went on record in support of the work of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice.


The General Conference does speak for the United Methodist Church.



How General Conference Works UMC.org

So since a series of posts were lost you want to start over and make the same arguments that were already addressed? Holy **** that is hilarious


[/quote]United Methodist General Conference went on record in support of the work of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice.[/quote]

No, what they did was affirm the involvement of the Board of church and society based on the fact that the principles of the RCRC are non-binding. But as I said, this was already pointed out to you, and why it needs to be recovered because the data was lost, is beyond me
 
Dr. ChucKles= said:
...

No, what they did was affirm the involvement of the Board of church and society based on the fact that the principles of the RCRC are non-binding....

Try reading the Bolded Quote again:
Therefore, be it resolved, that the United Methodist 2004 General Conference go on record in support of the work of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, and

Support for the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice
 

1) I'm not sure that was previously posted, so I am unsure how I can "read it again"

2) As various other documents you posted previously indicated, and you seemingly are intent in ignoring, the reason the various boards could be members of the RCRC was due to the fact that the RCRC is not binding on the various members of the organization and welcome a variety of positions from faith organizations on abortion. In this instance it was clearly "legal in the context of health risks to the mother.

PS it's really the height of dishonesty acting as if these points were not previously covered.
 
It doesn't matter to me what their affiliation or motive is. Anyone that would do something like this needs to be removed from society.
 
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