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Registered Dem Killed Trayvon

It's not an awful analogy at all, especially these days when so many treat their political philosophies and religions nearly identically. (Of course, that's not terribly new, either.) They absolutely do "interact" with each other in a very similar manner.

Again, you need to get out more.



What makes you think I was referring to, say, a Jew being attacked in his/her home and not their capacity as a Jew?

I don't know; you seem to be stealing a lot of bases throughout this entire conversation.
(I may have stolen some bases, but this isn't one of them)



Yet, you got all over me for suggesting it happens, when it's not even something that's on your radar and you apparently have no basis on which to say I'm wrong.
I didn't get all over you, I suggested that you converse with smarter people who wouldn't think such dumb things. And I immediately conceded the point that I may have exaggerated.



Looks to me that as someone who's been posting about people overcoming their programming, you've got a considerable amount of your own to work through.

Its fair to say I've stolen bases, but it is just too much time and effort to explain the details of my arguments. And you are probably right, I'm used to talking to people who share a similar belief system as I have, so I am used to taking some of those details for granted.

However, the fact that I readily admit this fact is enough to assure me that I am not programed by anything but my own thought. And TRUST ME, my whole job is based around justifying, rethinking, and, as you put it, "working through" systems of thougt.

So I'm not just playing coy when I say it would take too much time and space (and, above all, energy) to fully make my arguments.
 
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I think we can all learn something through this: Anyone who tells you race is no longer an issue in America is full of ****. Racism is everywhere. Maybe not at the level it was pre-civil rights era, but it's definitely still a very present issue.

Well obviously. It's been there since day 1. To pretend that it all went away because we let black people vote is simply illogical. The problem with a society that builds itself around the concept of race(like the US was) is that it ends up leaving a serious mark if race issues aren't corrected with major events. The US Independence war SHOULD have allowed for a change in racial dynamics(much in the same way it happened in the British Empire as far as slavery is concerned). However it didn't. The war of 1812, should have done the same and then again the Civil War, but none of these events seem to have brought much change at least in the attitudes of people towards race. Fast forward to the 1960s and you have a sizeable black population that is not only angry at the previous history but also at the lack of progress in the 20th century.

Today we have the children of blacks from the 60s(myself included even though I'm have) that have to deal not only with systemic(as opposed to systematic) racism from one side and the growing threat of racism from blacks themselves. It's a fine line to walk and we're in desperate need of an actual racial debate. Not screaming and weak legislation, we're in need of a public discussion. The US has spend 200+ years avoiding it.
 
Good to know. It's an act of desperation on Joko's part. This killing wasn't even remotely political. It had nothing to do with politics. It had to do with specific circumstance. Not as if Zimmerman killed Martin because he didn't like Republicans/Democrats/Libertarians or whatever.

You're right, Hatuey. I totally agree.
 
Well obviously. It's been there since day 1. To pretend that it all went away because we let black people vote is simply illogical. The problem with a society that builds itself around the concept of race(like the US was) is that it ends up leaving a serious mark if race issues aren't corrected with major events. The US Independence war SHOULD have allowed for a change in racial dynamics(much in the same way it happened in the British Empire as far as slavery is concerned). However it didn't. The war of 1812, should have done the same and then again the Civil War, but none of these events seem to have brought much change at least in the attitudes of people towards race. Fast forward to the 1960s and you have a sizeable black population that is not only angry at the previous history but also at the lack of progress in the 20th century.

Today we have the children of blacks from the 60s(myself included even though I'm have) that have to deal not only with systemic(as opposed to systematic) racism from one side and the growing threat of racism from blacks themselves. It's a fine line to walk and we're in desperate need of an actual racial debate. Not screaming and weak legislation, we're in need of a public discussion. The US has spend 200+ years avoiding it.

To be honest I like Morgan Freeman's idea. He was asked "How are we going to stop racism?" He replied "Stop Talking about it". I believe he has a point. Racism will only stop when we quit teaching it. By that I mean putting so much emphasis on race in general. It's one thing for a physical description. It's another when it's on applications for federal aid, scholarships, insurance, and other such things where physical appearance shouldn't really matter.
 
To be honest I like Morgan Freeman's idea. He was asked "How are we going to stop racism?" He replied "Stop Talking about it". I believe he has a point. Racism will only stop when we quit teaching it. By that I mean putting so much emphasis on race in general. It's one thing for a physical description. It's another when it's on applications for federal aid, scholarships, insurance, and other such things where physical appearance shouldn't really matter.

I agree. People shouldn't be denied or granted help based on what they look like but actual necessity. I just don't agree that the right course of action is to simply say that we can ignore something which was an issue in this country for nearly 2 centuries. I mean think about it. Even 170 years after the Irish Potato Famine, people are still discussing the effects it had on modern Irish politics. I think a country's history is incredibly relevant to solving social issues.
 
(I may have stolen some bases, but this isn't one of them)

Sure it is. If not, then why the differentiation between Giffords as a politician and Giffords "at home"? You assumed I wasn't referring to a Jew AS a Jew, such as at a Hillel center event, etc.


I didn't get all over you, I suggested that you converse with smarter people who wouldn't think such dumb things.

Sure you did. You used ALL CAPS and suggested that because I think what I do about what a lot people might have assumed, I need better friends:

You really need to hang out with smarter people.


SERIOUSLY.

If you have liberal friends who you think would believe that, you need to stop talking to them immediately. If you have conservative friends who think that this is how liberals think, you need to tell them to read a book.


And I immediately conceded the point that I may have exaggerated.

Yes, you did.




Its fair to say I've stolen bases, but it is just too much time and effort to explain the details of my arguments. And you are probably right, I'm used to talking to people who share a similar belief system as I have, so I am used to taking some of those details for granted.

However, the fact that I readily admit this fact is enough to assure me that I am not programed by anything but my own thought. And TRUST ME, my whole job is based around justifying, rethinking, and, as you put it, "working through" systems of thougt.

So I'm not just playing coy when I say it would take too much time and space (and, above all, energy) to fully make my arguments.

I'm not worried about your not explaining your arguments; it's about the assumptions you've made throughout this conversation.
 
Sure it is. If not, then why the differentiation between Giffords as a politician and Giffords "at home"? You assumed I wasn't referring to a Jew AS a Jew, such as at a Hillel center event, etc.




Sure you did. You used ALL CAPS and suggested that because I think what I do about what a lot people might have assumed, I need better friends:






Yes, you did.






I'm not worried about your not explaining your arguments; it's about the assumptions you've made throughout this conversation.

Good night.
 
Meet registered Democrat and self-identified Hispanic American, George Zimmerman

Registered Dem Killed Trayvon | Washington Free Beacon


George has some serious legal issues and his version is certainly suspect with the only evidence that is public record at this point in time.

I do not care of either of their political or religious affiliations ... this case needs a real investigation and it appears (unless it has not been reported) that the scene was not treated as a serious crime scene with lab swabs and blood samples from Zimmerman and forensic evidence immediately taken. Most crime scenes are protected and analyzed for hours.

Well finally because of the public outcry ... I hope justice is served and the truth is revealed.
 
Meet registered Democrat and self-identified Hispanic American, George Zimmerman

Registered Dem Killed Trayvon | Washington Free Beacon

The Two-Way : NPR

As I clicked on another site noted in the article I found very, very interesting too. My first thought was where is law enforcement? Shouldn't the FBI putting cuffs on this idiot now?

"Over the weekend, members of the New Black Panther Party showed just how tense the situation in the Trayvon Martin shooting has gotten: They offered a $10,000 bounty for the capture of George Zimmerman, who shot and killed the unarmed teenager."
 
I see the issue being danced around but not really addressed. The political identity of Zimmerman has no effect on whether he is guilty or innocent, where it does have an impact is on the narrative within the media right now. There has been a lot of talk about his state of mind, the racial overtones involved and how agressive Zimmerman was. Maybe, by changing the thought process somewhat to show that the caricature being presented doesnt really fit him, people will examine this case more intellectually and less emotionally. Yes, a young man is dead and that is emotional, but justice isnt about emotion.

Its a cause celebre now, Zimmermans chance at a fair hearing and fair trial are quite low now. Which is terrible because every accused person deserves at least that.
 
And then there's the CBS article/video....

CBS ~ What happened right after Trayvon Martin's shooting?

One thing that I have to note is that out of the 6 witnesses that they have not one of them saw what happened until after the shooting. Based on this alone there is no way to get a conviction. No DA would even attempt to bring charges with this little.

So that leaves physical forensic evidence. From what I see about the only thing that could give even a slight chance of Zimmerman getting convicted is if they proved that Trayvon never hit Zimmerman from behind. Which might be difficult since Zimmerman does have an injury on the back of the head. But I don't think that it is impossible. Computer and forensic science has advanced enough that it can tell from which direction a blow to the body came from, how much pressure was behind the blow croming from behind vs an arm wrapped around the head and hitting from behind and from what.

The reason that I say "from what" is because it is possible that Zimmerman got the injury to the back of the head from...say, being punched in the nose and falling backwards into the ground/sidewalk. However I don't think that this is what actually happened. Any doctor tending to that injury would have had to have dug out dirt/concrete and would have legally had to have noted it in their records for investigation records. And there is a difference between dirt/concrete being in a wound from rolling on the ground and that of being dug into the wound due to a blow. One is basically surface debris the other is dug in and "pits" (for lack of a better word). (something I learned while getting stitches once) Anyways, combine this with the fact that the DA says that there isn't enough evidence to convict and all in all it lends credence to Zimmermans account of being hit from behind. Which would bring forth an easy case for self defense.

One other thing that I would like to address. In the CBS story they say that the lead investigator Chris Serino did indeed try to persue manslaughter charges against Zimmerman. That to me suggests that at the very least Serino was not racial profiling. It also suggests to me that Serino would not have been lax in investigating this.
 
Well obviously. It's been there since day 1. To pretend that it all went away because we let black people vote is simply illogical. The problem with a society that builds itself around the concept of race(like the US was) is that it ends up leaving a serious mark if race issues aren't corrected with major events. The US Independence war SHOULD have allowed for a change in racial dynamics(much in the same way it happened in the British Empire as far as slavery is concerned). However it didn't. The war of 1812, should have done the same and then again the Civil War, but none of these events seem to have brought much change at least in the attitudes of people towards race. Fast forward to the 1960s and you have a sizeable black population that is not only angry at the previous history but also at the lack of progress in the 20th century.

Today we have the children of blacks from the 60s(myself included even though I'm have) that have to deal not only with systemic(as opposed to systematic) racism from one side and the growing threat of racism from blacks themselves. It's a fine line to walk and we're in desperate need of an actual racial debate. Not screaming and weak legislation, we're in need of a public discussion. The US has spend 200+ years avoiding it.

Around here the debate has been concluded and history is jumping back about 7 decades. A yankee black president just declared that people of his race get to kill Southern white looking folks who are prohibited from using their firearms to defend themselves. But he is the president and the president has the power to start wars, including race wars and he just did.

It was the couple of million yankee snowbirds and retirees with both their attitudes and money that brought change to central Florida and the panhandle. Being very pro-law and order and the houses bringing property tax money in, they created a huge Sheriff's department not entirely of Southerns and they themselves their neighborhood crime watches have plenty of time on their hands. Before that this was solidly Klan country. The multi-generational bad ole boys and even a KKK cell here didn't good away, they formed their remote enclaves - thousands of them actually with there thousands of Confederate flags they proudly fly and display. But kept in check.

The President declared a race war and declared that white folk can't use their guns that the old yankees have come to love to defend themselves. So they just switched sides and the incumbent Sheriff knows he's toast in re-election this year. Every crime watch sign has disappeared I think in the entire county. So they are vigilantes now, disconnected with law enforcement and well aware they are to not call 911 anymore. Instead they will do things their own way with justice returning to a thing of the backwoods, swampland, marshes, shell islands and estuaries. Everyone knows how the bad ole boys in the enclaves with their thousands of Confederate flags on pickup trucks and flagpoles do things. The area is around 90% white. I suspect that percentage will increase.

Hopefully, the few black folk on their borders will know to stay out, stay on the highways, pick new fishing grounds or just move off. But their choice and this is no problem for me or mine so no big deal. This is not our fight. It's the president's.

If there is a problem, the President said this is a federal matter so let the feds deal with it. Life rolls on.
 
It is a tough case and there will be a lot of second guessing. One very notable flaw in the investigation was allowing Zimmerman to go without testing for drugs/alcohol. As for all the CSI type reenacting of the fight and who struck whom at what time... pure science fiction and unless the crime scene was kept 100% sterile and the computer mapped every inch of both men without any loss of debris along the way impossible to get a clear computer generated recreation that would stand up in court.
 
Around here the debate has been concluded and history is jumping back about 7 decades. A yankee black president just declared that people of his race get to kill Southern white looking folks who are prohibited from using their firearms to defend themselves. But he is the president and the president has the power to start wars, including race wars and he just did.

In the words of Excon: Hyperbole.

It was the couple of million yankee snowbirds and retirees with both their attitudes and money that brought change to central Florida and the panhandle. Being very pro-law and order and the houses bringing property tax money in, they created a huge Sheriff's department not entirely of Southerns and they themselves their neighborhood crime watches have plenty of time on their hands. Before that this was solidly Klan country. The multi-generational bad ole boys and even a KKK cell here didn't good away, they formed their remote enclaves - thousands of them actually with there thousands of Confederate flags they proudly fly and display. But kept in check.

So.... wha?

The President declared a race war and declared that white folk can't use their guns that the old yankees have come to love to defend themselves. So they just switched sides and the incumbent Sheriff knows he's toast in re-election this year. Every crime watch sign has disappeared I think in the entire county. So they are vigilantes now, disconnected with law enforcement and well aware they are to not call 911 anymore. Instead they will do things their own way with justice returning to a thing of the backwoods, swampland, marshes, shell islands and estuaries. Everyone knows how the bad ole boys in the enclaves with their thousands of Confederate flags on pickup trucks and flagpoles do things. The area is around 90% white. I suspect that percentage will increase.

Rofl.... wha?

Hopefully, the few black folk on their borders will know to stay out, stay on the highways, pick new fishing grounds or just move off. But their choice and this is no problem for me or mine so no big deal. This is not our fight. It's the president's.

If there is a problem, the President said this is a federal matter so let the feds deal with it. Life rolls on.

So.... is that why you've been in such a high defence of Zimmerman? Yankee presidents, race wars etc? Your colours are starting to shine through.
 
In the words of Excon: Hyperbole.



So.... wha?



Rofl.... wha?



So.... is that why you've been in such a high defence of Zimmerman? Yankee presidents, race wars etc? Your colours are starting to shine through.

Well I thought it was just me. I passed this post up I was so confused. But it seems you're confused too. After trying to battle through all the adjectives and dramatic wording, and getting to the end, I still am not sure whether the poster is "for or against".
 
In the words of Excon: Hyperbole.



So.... wha?



Rofl.... wha?



So.... is that why you've been in such a high defence of Zimmerman? Yankee presidents, race wars etc? Your colours are starting to shine through.

Other than a tad of run-away slave blood that doesn't really show, my color is not in this color war. Not white, black or brown. Those of my mind and heart here look plenty white enough so they're ok and those who don't are on the other side of the country.

At least for a while, here and there around here, some folks are going to get their "The South will rise again." All neighborhood crime watch signs gone. But the "Bars and Stars" are flying. Oh, and some signs in yards all over about saving our community (from the evil feds). I think you'll like that. You'll have more to rage about.

I'm a fish and wildlife guy so it's not my job to deal with either. As long as they don't mess with the fish and animals, I've done my job.
 
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Well I thought it was just me. I passed this post up I was so confused. But it seems you're confused too. After trying to battle through all the adjectives and dramatic wording, and getting to the end, I still am not sure whether the poster is "for or against".

It sounds like something out of The Turner Diaries.
 
A head wouldn't shatter concrete leaving bits and pieces.

Who said it would shatter? I sure didn't. Tell ya what though, the next time that you are on a sidewalk bend down and punch the sidewalk hard enough to wound your hand and then look at the resulting wound. You'll notice bits and pieces of cement in that wound. Sidewalks are not glass smooth ya know.

Yes, after Obama said that Martin was the right race and could have been his son, investigator Chris Serino remembered that he WANTED to arrest Zimmerman and charge him, but the prosecutor wouldn't let him.

If you had read the article then you would know that Serino persued the manslaughter charges for 2 weeks after the shooting...not for 2 weeks after public pressure started.

Actually, how arrests work is the police decide and if they want to arrest they present a warrant to a judge to sign. Then the prosecutor decides. But if I were Serino I wouldn't want to take on the President or Justice Department either - and as we see he is one of them getting to keep his job. Wise reflective memory statement to make on his part.

You're basically correct here. But if a DA isn't going to prosecute because there isn't enough evidence do you think that a judge would sign such a warrant? It is not uncommon for police to go talk to a DA before a judge to see if they have enough evidence to bring before a judge to get that warrant.
 
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It is a tough case and there will be a lot of second guessing. One very notable flaw in the investigation was allowing Zimmerman to go without testing for drugs/alcohol. As for all the CSI type reenacting of the fight and who struck whom at what time... pure science fiction and unless the crime scene was kept 100% sterile and the computer mapped every inch of both men without any loss of debris along the way impossible to get a clear computer generated recreation that would stand up in court.

Just a note, cops are trained to detect if someone is high/drunk. If they had thought that Zimmerman was high/drunk then I'm sure that they would have tested him. The testing of Trayvon for those is actually standard procedure in any autopsie.
 
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