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Austerity leads to higher death rates.

Perhaps you're right. I still don't think that the states formed their compact so that the union could take care of their indigent. They were and are perfectly capable of performing this function on their own. To me (and that means IN MY OPINION) this responsibility is better handled by individuals in the community, local government, or state government.

Okay. :)


I see nothing wrong with any level of government that wants to help doing just that. History shows that local and state governments simply were NOT doing that task very well in our past.
 
Okay. :)


I see nothing wrong with any level of government that wants to help doing just that. History shows that local and state governments simply were NOT doing that task very well in our past.
Government can only help if it first violates the rights and confiscates the wealth of others. We live in a free society, where the primary role of the state is to secure the rights and liberties of that free people. A state cannot be both a judge, divider, and redistributor of individual property while securing that property at the same time. It cannot do both.
 
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Government can only help if it first violates the rights and confiscates the wealth of others. We live in a free society, where the primary role of the state is to secure the rights and liberties of that free people. A state cannot be both a judge, divider, and redistributor of individual property while securing that property at the same time. It cannot do both.

Which is why we have different branches that are assigned to do that task - and limited in power and given permission which keep the others in check (and so on)

We're not 'free' from government - we're 'free' from other governments.
 
Government can only help if it first violates the rights and confiscates the wealth of others. We live in a free society, where the primary role of the state is to secure the rights and liberties of that free people. A state cannot be both a judge, divider, and redistributor of individual property while securing that property at the same time. It cannot do both.
Agreed. It can not both protect your property while at the same time take your property to give to another. Those are two mutually exclusive acts.
 
Which is what we are seeing in Europe now, with the removal of more government expenditures there is a direct correlation to that societal chaos increasing.

There is far more societal collapse in the US than there is in 99% of European countries.. Greece being the odd one out. We dont have tent cities of newley evicted homeless families in every major city, although our homeless numbers have risen as it always does during economic crisis.

While it is bad in Greece, you all have to understand one thing. The Greek healthcare system was never even before the crisis,.. at the top of the European universal healthcare systems. It was like most of Greek society plagued by corruption.. making it far more like the American system.. aka a pay system than the "free" system most Europeans are use too. It was the perfect libitarian system.. universal healthcare on paper, but in reality it was only those with money who got the good and immediate care. This system has now fallen in large part apart since the rich are leaving since they risk arrest for tax evasion, and the rest have lost all their income due to an overall 33% slash of wages and pensions (and worse).

As for superbugs.. They are in all hospital systems. You dont hear about them that much in the US, not because they are not there, but because the hospitals are private and dont go reporting negative things unless they are required too.. that is why the myth of no waiting times in US hospitals exists.. That is very different in Europe, where we actually demand certain standards of reporting from our hospitals, private and public. And super bugs are a problem everywhere and it comes down to cleaning of hospitals and the overuse of penicillin by doctors and the over all health of the population. Countries with poor health of the population.. Russia for example, have huge problems, where as countries in Scandinavia and Spain have relatively less of a problem (but it still exists).

And the argument that it is because of less nurses is hogwash. The US has one of the lowest nurses per capita numbers in the industrialised world, and by this analogy the super bug problem should be out of control there.
 
Okay. :)


I see nothing wrong with any level of government that wants to help doing just that. History shows that local and state governments simply were NOT doing that task very well in our past.

I think that the federal government oversteps it proper function when it begins concerning itself with the internal affairs of my state. But that's just me. I'm a decentralist. I like the decisions that effect me to be made in my community by people I know and who know me. I don't think it is effective or appropriate for the federal government, which is to say people from other states, to be taking care of the indigent in my community and state.
 
The Greek government made its bed. Now it has to lie in it. Even then, it does not matter who is responsible for the crises or why it happened. The Greek government literally cannot continue their current fiscal policy without total collapse. It needs to cut back. This is not a matter of left vs right or differing economic schools of thought. It is a matter of basic counting.
 
There is far more societal collapse in the US than there is in 99% of European countries.. Greece being the odd one out. We dont have tent cities of newley evicted homeless families in every major city, although our homeless numbers have risen as it always does during economic crisis.

Heheheheheh.

Classic PeteEU.

The only "tent cities" are those of the "Occupy" crowd.
 
Yea be in denial.

Economic Woes Lead To Proliferation Of Tent Cities Nationwide | Fox News

America's city of broken dreams: 50 jobless and destitute people set up forest community on New York's doorstep | Mail Online

Got more that go back to 2008 as well if you want them.

They are real, very real and blaming the OWS movement is low, disgusting and pathetic denial.

:roll:

It's not "denial," but it IS amusement at you latching onto something which is a tiny anomaly as though it's a vast norm across the nation. You're a well-established US-basher and that's how you think. I do find it entertaining.

I didn't "blame" OWS. Learn to read. Oh, and to try to present yourself as some kind of champion of the downtrodden here is what's "pathetic."
 
The Greek government made its bed. Now it has to lie in it. Even then, it does not matter who is responsible for the crises or why it happened. The Greek government literally cannot continue their current fiscal policy without total collapse. It needs to cut back. This is not a matter of left vs right or differing economic schools of thought. It is a matter of basic counting.

And you, like many Americans fail to understand the problem.

They have cut huge chunks out of the budget, but the problem is the tax system. When 60%+ of the population avoids to pay full taxes then you have a problem that is far far far far larger than "too much spending". It is in principle the same problem some what you have in the US... too much spending and not enough income. Now you can cut and cut and cut, but if the income falls as well because people cheat on their taxes (or in the US case you cut taxes) then cutting spending does not do jack to the over all deficit. Now in Greece the cutting has been so harsh that they are projected to have a primary surplus this year, which means they would have a surplus if they did not have debt repayments.

For example, doctors have had 33% of their wages gutted and now get 1700 euros a month in wages. This can be felt .. you try to go down 33% in your wages overnight and see how that fairs. Prices and rent after all dont go down... And this happened across the public sector and private sectors with the bankers and rich not feeling much pain what so ever and still not paying their taxes. There was a story about a Greek business woman who was busted for avoiding almost 100 million Euros in back taxes.. and she was one of many who owed such large sums. She is of course now claiming she is bankrupt so ....

You can claim the Greeks brought this on themselves, but remember this.. the Greek people were lied too by the very same right wing politicians that used US financial institutions to hide debt from the EU and the world and caused this cluster**** we see now... and these politicians and bankers have gotten off scot free... so far.. in fact the politicians almost got back in power in Greece..
 
:roll:

It's not "denial," but it IS amusement at you latching onto something which is a tiny anomaly as though it's a vast norm across the nation. You're a well-established US-basher and that's how you think. I do find it entertaining.

I didn't "blame" OWS. Learn to read. Oh, and to try to present yourself as some kind of champion of the downtrodden here is what's "pathetic."

By mentioning OWS you try to associate the homeless tent cities as a problem created by OWS.. not true.

Also it is nation wide, you learn to read. It is from New Jersey to Texas to Oregon to California and everywhere in between.
 
And you, like many Americans fail to understand the problem.

They have cut huge chunks out of the budget, but the problem is the tax system. When 60%+ of the population avoids to pay full taxes then you have a problem that is far far far far larger than "too much spending". It is in principle the same problem some what you have in the US... too much spending and not enough income. Now you can cut and cut and cut, but if the income falls as well because people cheat on their taxes (or in the US case you cut taxes) then cutting spending does not do jack to the over all deficit. Now in Greece the cutting has been so harsh that they are projected to have a primary surplus this year, which means they would have a surplus if they did not have debt repayments.

For example, doctors have had 33% of their wages gutted and now get 1700 euros a month in wages. This can be felt .. you try to go down 33% in your wages overnight and see how that fairs. Prices and rent after all dont go down... And this happened across the public sector and private sectors with the bankers and rich not feeling much pain what so ever and still not paying their taxes. There was a story about a Greek business woman who was busted for avoiding almost 100 million Euros in back taxes.. and she was one of many who owed such large sums. She is of course now claiming she is bankrupt so ....

You can claim the Greeks brought this on themselves, but remember this.. the Greek people were lied too by the very same right wing politicians that used US financial institutions to hide debt from the EU and the world and caused this cluster**** we see now... and these politicians and bankers have gotten off scot free... so far.. in fact the politicians almost got back in power in Greece..

All of our government's revenue does NOT come from income taxes.

And with the government's excessive spending habits- we have plenty of proof to show that even if 100% of people paid 100% of taxes then we'd still be belly up because our governmet has spent in excess of revenue for decades. It's how they function.
 
All of our government's revenue does NOT come from income taxes.

And with the government's excessive spending habits- we have plenty of proof to show that even if 100% of people paid 100% of taxes then we'd still be belly up because our governmet has spent in excess of revenue for decades. It's how they function.

2011 deficit: $1.6 Trillion
2012 deficit: >$1.3 Trillion
2013 deficit: >$900 Billion

2022 deficit: >$700 Billion

Source: White House

So anyone who knows 3rd grade math can see that the plan is to add at least $8-10 Trillion to the debt over the next decade.
 
Government can only help if it first violates the rights and confiscates the wealth of others. We live in a free society, where the primary role of the state is to secure the rights and liberties of that free people. A state cannot be both a judge, divider, and redistributor of individual property while securing that property at the same time. It cannot do both.

Nonsense. Living in a cooperative society with 311 million other people means taxation and governmental enforcement of the social contract. There is no such thing as a free society outside of anarchy which you can have.
 
I think that the federal government oversteps it proper function when it begins concerning itself with the internal affairs of my state. But that's just me. I'm a decentralist. I like the decisions that effect me to be made in my community by people I know and who know me. I don't think it is effective or appropriate for the federal government, which is to say people from other states, to be taking care of the indigent in my community and state.

Again, please tell me about the time in history before the government assumed those roles and how well that job was done by cities and states.
 
Nonsense. Living in a cooperative society with 311 million other people means taxation and governmental enforcement of the social contract. There is no such thing as a free society outside of anarchy which you can have.
A free society is one where government secures the rights and liberties of its citizens. That is not anarchy. Oh, and do you have a copy of this social contract? I would like to see it. It cant possibly be the Constitution, since that document, like the Declaration of Independence, can be said to be based upon a single word--liberty.
 
A free society is one where government secures the rights and liberties of its citizens. That is not anarchy. Oh, and do you have a copy of this social contract? I would like to see it. It cant possibly be the Constitution, since that document, like the Declaration of Independence, can be said to be based upon a single word--liberty.

The social contract is the one you give your approval each and every day your behind keeps its presence here and does not leave elsewhere when you damn well know the rules.

There is no such thing as LIBERTY. It is a hollow and empty cliche which is a joke in the modern world where people constantly have to balance rights against each other. Your precious LIBERTY does not exist in the real world of other people.

You libertarians use the words LIBERTY and FREEDOM the same way a lounge lizard uses the word LOVE at fifteen minutes before the bar closes for the night. And your intentions are exactly the same.
 
The social contract is the one you give your approval each and every day your behind keeps its presence here and does not leave elsewhere when you damn well know the rules.

There is no such thing as LIBERTY. It is a hollow and empty cliche which is a joke in the modern world where people constantly have to balance rights against each other. Your precious LIBERTY does not exist in the real world of other people.

You libertarians use the words LIBERTY and FREEDOM the same way a lounge lizard uses the word LOVE at fifteen minutes before the bar closes for the night. And your intentions are exactly the same.
I can see myself not spending a great deal of time in the future responding to your posts.
 
And you, like many Americans fail to understand the problem.

They have cut huge chunks out of the budget, but the problem is the tax system. When 60%+ of the population avoids to pay full taxes then you have a problem that is far far far far larger than "too much spending". It is in principle the same problem some what you have in the US... too much spending and not enough income. Now you can cut and cut and cut, but if the income falls as well because people cheat on their taxes (or in the US case you cut taxes) then cutting spending does not do jack to the over all deficit. Now in Greece the cutting has been so harsh that they are projected to have a primary surplus this year, which means they would have a surplus if they did not have debt repayments.

For example, doctors have had 33% of their wages gutted and now get 1700 euros a month in wages. This can be felt .. you try to go down 33% in your wages overnight and see how that fairs. Prices and rent after all dont go down... And this happened across the public sector and private sectors with the bankers and rich not feeling much pain what so ever and still not paying their taxes. There was a story about a Greek business woman who was busted for avoiding almost 100 million Euros in back taxes.. and she was one of many who owed such large sums. She is of course now claiming she is bankrupt so ....

You can claim the Greeks brought this on themselves, but remember this.. the Greek people were lied too by the very same right wing politicians that used US financial institutions to hide debt from the EU and the world and caused this cluster**** we see now... and these politicians and bankers have gotten off scot free... so far.. in fact the politicians almost got back in power in Greece..

This is utter garbage. If you took the upper 1% and took EVERYTHING they made, we would still be running a gigantic deficit. We must cut spending to come to balance.

All your gloom and doom there about wages? Why didnt they make incremental cuts when they could and let prices adjust? Thats right, they were too busy spending every penny that came in and some that were never going to. The part I bolded, how farsical is it to insist that right wingers are responsible for whats going on in Greece? The right in Greece is to the left of the moderates in this country.

I love your assumption that the rich caused the debt because they didnt pay enough. No matter how much you give the government, it probably wont be enough. What happened to not spending so much? Thats what you have to do, long term or short term. Short term it doesnt hurt as much. Long term it can disastrous. Greece is learning just how disastrous. Its pathetic to place blame anywhere but the politicians that couldnt avoid their impulses to spend and spend as a means to maintain power and buy votes---whether intended or not, thats what it accomplished. Wise up, Pete.
 
It is worth noting that the type of individual who would make pompous pontifications such as this is most likely as removed as far as possible from the individuals who need help and stand the most to lose from austerity programs. It is like the French nobility covering their powdered noses with perfumed handkerchiefs so they will not have to smell the body odor of the riffraff while on the streets of Paris.

It's worth noting that the type of individual who would make pontifications such as this are taking responsibility for themselves, and aren't so stupid as to believe that the government can keep disincentivizing the productive forever, without a backlash. I am certainly not *nobility*, and I have worked my ass off for the past 38 years, and paid through the ass in taxes, while our government pisses the monies it collects from people like myself, into the wind.
 
Having a society where the needy are taken care of and the weak are not allowed to starve and die in the streets is among the hallmarks of being a responsible citizen.



Having a society where people don't have more children than they can pay for, and meet their own needs by understanding that there is no free lunch, are the hallmarks of being responsible citizens.
 
The social contract is the one you give your approval each and every day your behind keeps its presence here and does not leave elsewhere when you damn well know the rules.

There is no such thing as LIBERTY. It is a hollow and empty cliche which is a joke in the modern world...

The social contract is not a contract. It's the made up term people like you try to use as a claim to others' property.

You are saying liberty does not exist, and yet the "social contract" is supposedly some real thing that you can reference whenever you want to argue that more of people's property is owed to someone else.

Liberty does exist, haymarket. I have the liberty to do ALL sorts of things of which you may or may not approve, and you can complain and whine and protest all day long that you don't have absolute control over my life (or finances). I can wake up tomorrow morning and ferment alcoholic drinks for my own consumption, grow food in my yard, withdraw some cash and go purchase more ammunition for my firearms. I have the liberty to invest up to $16,500 of my pre-tax annual income, kicking my tax burden 30 years down the road to when I retire. All that money I'm saving away for myself... man just think of it. All those needy people out there today who would benefit from your bleeding heart Big Government schemes... and I'm just stashing it away, all for myself (until Uncle Sam taps me when I cash it in, of course). I have the liberty to be just as greedy and selfish and heartless and classist and sexist and racist as I want to, and not give a hot coil about the suffering people out there. I have the liberty to be that way, and I don't have to move out of the country if the way I am disagrees with your "social contract" sensibilities.
 
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I can see myself not spending a great deal of time in the future responding to your posts.

I imagine it is tough trying to get your self imposed belief system across to a non-believer.

Neomalthusian - you have limited liberty. Nobody who lives in a society of 311 million other people under the laws of our nation has complete LIBERTY - no matter how it is defined by them to pretend otherwise.

You totally are misunderstanding and misinterpreting the meaning of the social contract. This will help

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/faq.html#contract
 
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It's worth noting that the type of individual who would make pontifications such as this are taking responsibility for themselves, and aren't so stupid as to believe that the government can keep disincentivizing the productive forever, without a backlash. I am certainly not *nobility*, and I have worked my ass off for the past 38 years, and paid through the ass in taxes, while our government pisses the monies it collects from people like myself, into the wind.

Charles Caleb Colton proclaimed that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

Thanks for the compliment.;)
 
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