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U.S. Marines Urinate On Dead Bodies In Afghanistan

Absolutely not - it means they have no frame of reference to know what these men are going through and their comments therefore are premature and uninformed. In NO WAY is it "If you've never been a combat soldier have a nice hot cup of shut the **** up and don't criticize any Marines". No one is saying that ... what I and others have said is that we believe what was done was wrong, we don't endorse it, but we understand. Even I, who was never in combat, at least can understand.

I understand YOU aren't saying that, I fully agree 100% with what you said about not endorsing but understanding - that's my position as well. You know generally I respect your opinion even when we don't see eye to eye.

But plenty of people in this thread ARE saying that "War is hell, so if you've never been there please stfu." That's what the whole Allen West link was about.
 
I understand YOU aren't saying that, I fully agree 100% with what you said about not endorsing but understanding - that's my position as well. You know generally I respect your opinion even when we don't see eye to eye.

But plenty of people in this thread ARE saying that "War is hell, so if you've never been there please stfu." That's what the whole Allen West link was about.

To all those who have said that (and I don't claim to have read everyone's post in this thread) it's certainly wrong. We who have served should be trying to explain the experiences we've had and not censor anyone's opinion, because it's someone one has to experience and live through in order to truly understand.

You know I respect your opining as well SB - so my apologies if I got out of line there.
 
I think everyone has an opinion and a right to express it. And my opinion is, walk in another man's boondocker's before you start shooting off at your pie hole. Not saying a person doesn't have the right to spew out the piehole. They do. Just saying that same right allows me to tell them to shut the **** up. LOL!
 
And my opinion is, walk in another man's boondocker's before you start shooting off at your pie hole.
So do you think every American citizen should walk in the President's Oxfords before they start shooting off at their pie hole?
 
I think everyone has an opinion and a right to express it. And my opinion is, walk in another man's boondocker's before you start shooting off at your pie hole. Not saying a person doesn't have the right to spew out the piehole. They do. Just saying that same right allows me to tell them to shut the **** up. LOL!

And this is a foolish thing to say, since it means Obama should be able to tell you to STFU if you criticize him since you have never ran a country. People all the time have opinions, and frequently very educated opinions with a much better perspective on things they have not actually done.
 
Dude! I got told to S.T.F.U. all the time. LOL!
 
To all those who have said that (and I don't claim to have read everyone's post in this thread) it's certainly wrong. We who have served should be trying to explain the experiences we've had and not censor anyone's opinion, because it's someone one has to experience and live through in order to truly understand.

You know I respect your opining as well SB - so my apologies if I got out of line there.

No, not at all, don't worry about it.

My position is this - most people in this thread fully understand that war is hell - that it brutalizes and dehumanizes the individual, and that the average civilian has absolutely no idea what it's like to face the trauma of getting shot at every day and getting their friends killed. We understand that.

However, we also agree that - ironic though it is -pissing on the bodies of the dead enemy, though understandable, is a dishonorable, unprofessional act that should be condemned as wrong, and is something that should be punished (not to mention the stupidity of taking a video of it and allowing it to find its way onto the Internet).

I think the vast majority of people in this thread agree with what I've just stated above. However, for people who ARE playing the "War is hell, you are in no position to criticize because you've never been there" card, it seems to me that their argument goes beyond understanding the behavior of these Marines - they are EXCUSING it. And that argument, to me, simply doesn't hold a lot of water and it bothers me that people think that way. There's a fine line between understanding what these Marines did and why - which all of us should do, whether or not we are critical of their actions - and excusing their behavior.
 
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Dude! I got told to S.T.F.U. all the time. LOL!
Why won't you answer any questions?

Do you think every American citizen should walk in the President's Oxfords before they start shooting off at their pie hole?
 
If you're insinuating the age-old canard that Serenity is somehow a terrorist-supporter or an "enemy-supporter," then that is one big huge ****ing gigantic straw man.

That's an "age old canard"? Lol

No, SB, what I'm saying is if I'm going to be accused of being a hypocrite, I just want to understand why. Serenity thinks I should be just as outraged at these Marines as I am at our nations enemies when they drag dead bodies through the streets (etc.), and that failure to have that level of outrage makes me a hypocrite. I'm saying, I cannot and do not have that same level of outrage. The truth is I will give our troops more of the benefit of the doubt, not less, because I am on their side. That's all I was saying. I wasn't accusing anyone of anything.
 
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That's an "age old canard"? Lol

No, SB, what I'm saying is if I'm going to be accused of being a hypocrite, I just want to understand why. Serenity thinks I should be just as outraged at these Marines as I am at our nations enemies when they drag dead bodies through the streets (etc.), and that failure to have that level of outrage makes me a hypocrite. I'm saying, I'm willing to give our troops more of the benefit of the doubt because I am on their side.

Alright, my apologies X.

However, personally, I can't agree with this statement. Except for the fringe crazies who are anti-military and anti-America, we are ALL on the troops' side. We support them in that we want them to be successful in their mission and that they come back home safely.

That has relatively little to do with how we view the actions of these Marines. I am very outraged when I see pictures of American contractors and American troops hung naked from a bridge or dragged through the streets of Mogadishu.

On the other hand, when I see our Marines do things that are clearly unethical on the battlefield, I'm upset as well. Not because I feel for the dead Taliban, but because I believe that our military is a professional organization that should adhere to a code of honor and certain values, that these actions violate those standards, and that since our policymakers are professing the moral high ground when it comes to the War on Terror, our troops should be held to a higher standard than the enemy.

I don't think "being on their side," necessarily means that you give them leeway when they do wrong. Understand the action, and why it happened, yes, but don't dismiss or excuse it.
 
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Serenity thinks I should be just as outraged at these Marines as I am at our nations enemies when they drag dead bodies through the streets (etc.),

I am trying to see the practical difference between desecrating a dead body and desecrating a dead body. Maybe you can point it out to me.
 
Alright, my apologies X.
No need to apologize at all. It was a good thing to clarify.

However, personally, I can't agree with this statement. Except for the fringe crazies who are anti-military and anti-America, we are ALL on the troops' side. We support them in that we want them to be successful in their mission and that they come back home safely.

That has relatively little to do with how we view the actions of these Marines. I am very outraged when I see pictures of American contractors and American troops hung naked from a bridge or dragged through the streets of Mogadishu.

On the other hand, when I see our Marines do things that are clearly unethical on the battlefield, I'm upset as well. Not because I feel for the dead Taliban, but because I believe that our military is a professional organization that should adhere to a code of honor and certain values, that these actions violate those standards, and that since our policymakers are professing the moral high ground when it comes to the War on Terror, our troops should be held to a higher standard than the enemy.

I don't think "being on their side," necessarily means that you give them leeway when they do wrong. Understand the action, and why it happened, yes, but don't dismiss or excuse it.

I know you disagree with me. Let me ask you, do you think these Marines committed a "war crime"?
 
I am trying to see the practical difference between desecrating a dead body and desecrating a dead body. Maybe you can point it out to me.

One is less outrageous because it's our guys doing the desecrating. And I can certainly see why some people feel that way, but that argument doesn't fly with me.

If you love your child or a younger sibling, do you be less upset when he does stupid **** compared to someone else's kid or sibling, or should you be more upset?
 
I don't matter what I think. People shoot off their mouths. Hell, I've taken that to a whole new level, nay, art form, myself.

But, pondering your question, I do suppose the whitehouse would have to have a turbo charged turnstile in order to allow everyone who wants to shoot off their mouth about the P.O.T.U.S.

I dare say that shooting off one's mouth without knowing the actual what-what about whatever it is they are shooting off their mough about has become a national pastime. This very forum would collapse otherwise.

Perhaps, my momentary remembrance of the following picture, and my quickness to express that, here on this thread might not have been the smartest thing I do all day. In my human folly, I do have a tendancy to remain loyal to our service men and women. I will conceed that.

View attachment 67121215
I don't think there are too many people in this thread who aren't loyal to those in the military in some respect. My only point was that it makes as much sense to tell non-military people to shut up about military affairs as it does to tell non-Presidents to shut up about Presidential decisions. Like you said, if people followed such rules, this forum wouldn't even exist. Moreover, not being in the military does not mean that you don't have enough of an understanding of war and the psychological toll it takes to have a valid opinion on the actions described in the OP.

It seems like the biggest things veterans want to point out is that war is brutal, it takes a toll on soldiers mental state and that they have to dehumanize the opposition to make it through. If people understand and acknowledge all of that, then there's isn't much left in terms of "you just don't get it" to dismiss people's arguments with.
 
No need to apologize at all. It was a good thing to clarify.



I know you disagree with me. Let me ask you, do you think these Marines committed a "war crime"?

The answer is no, not even close. A war crime, in my opinion, would generally involve the killing of innocent civilians or combatants who have already surrendered to you.

However, it was an action that, once again, while completely understandable, is morally and ethically wrong, however minor we might perceive it to be. But even discounting my personal moral opinions on the matter, the videotaping and letting it get onto the internet was absolutely stupid.
 
I am trying to see the practical difference between desecrating a dead body and desecrating a dead body. Maybe you can point it out to me.

I loove how you completly ignored my embryo comment.

P.s. you cant use the word practical in that sentence because if the person is dead they have no practical use for their body anymore. Its practically useless.
 
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I am trying to see the practical difference between desecrating a dead body and desecrating a dead body. Maybe you can point it out to me.

If you're suggesting that those Marines are "just the same" as our enemies, I'm sorry, I'm just not going to be able to agree with that.
 
The answer is no, not even close. A war crime, in my opinion, would generally involve the killing of innocent civilians or combatants who have already surrendered to you.

However, it was an action that, once again, while completely understandable, is morally and ethically wrong, however minor we might perceive it to be. But even discounting my personal moral opinions on the matter, the videotaping and letting it get onto the internet was absolutely stupid.

Stillballin - can you compare it in severity to something non-war related? Meaning, you say it's wrong, how wrong is it? What kind of crime would the punishment be similar to? Or, if you can, what should the punishment actually be?
 
If you're suggesting that those Marines are "just the same" as our enemies, I'm sorry, I'm just not going to be able to agree with that.

If you are going to suggest that I said that, I am just not going to be able to agree with your suggestion. Now why not point out the difference between the two things you compapred for us instead of evading?
 
One is less outrageous because it's our guys doing the desecrating. And I can certainly see why some people feel that way, but that argument doesn't fly with me.

If you love your child or a younger sibling, do you be less upset when he does stupid **** compared to someone else's kid or sibling, or should you be more upset?

Yes, some of you have suggested that you're actually quicker to condemn our troops for their actions than those of the Taliban (or whoever). I am just not that way. /shrug
 
If you are going to suggest that I said that, I am just not going to be able to agree with your suggestion. Now why not point out the difference between the two things you compapred for us instead of evading?

The two things I compared was peeing on bodies and dragging them naked through the street. Do you really want me to list why I think one is worse than the other?
 
Yes, some of you have suggested that you're actually quicker to condemn our troops for their actions than those of the Taliban (or whoever). I am just not that way. /shrug

See, now I think our troops are better than the taliban. I am sorry you disagree.
 
Stillballin - can you compare it in severity to something non-war related? Meaning, you say it's wrong, how wrong is it? What kind of crime would the punishment be similar to? Or, if you can, what should the punishment actually be?

Is there a civilian equivalent of desecration of a dead body? I think there is - but I don't know if that's a comparable situation to what happens in wartime.

As for punishment - I'm not particularly keen on giving these guys a hard time. Maybe dock part of their pay for a few months, but the key thing is to give them a good long talk about how stupid their actions were, especially the videotaping part. In fact, the Corps is instituting new "battlefield ethics" training in light of this incident - i'm not sure how seriously they're going to take it, but it's something I suppose.

To be honest, the actions of these Marines upset me, but only slightly. Desecrating dead bodies has been going on for a long time, it doesn't make it right, but its understandable. I'm not OVERLY worked up about it.

Now if we're going to talk about real moral dilemmas in war, let's talk about the use of drop weapons. That's a conundrum if I've ever seen one.
 
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