Atheist messages displace CA park nativity scenes

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LaMidRighter said:

Ah, so you don't like people ****ting on your beliefs so you choose to **** on their beliefs during their holidays. Yeah that will win sympathy, especially considering you aren't even getting payback on the people ****ting on your beliefs but rather "firing blind". Sorry, but you can't attack innocent people and use the "well they did it first" defense.

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It's not your holiday till you ask the Pagans and Wiccans' forgiveness for trampling over theirs. Many atheists in Northern Europe celebrate Yule, which predates your Johnny-come-lately party by some millenia.

Manc Skipper said:

It's not your holiday till you ask the Pagans and Wiccans' forgiveness for trampling over theirs. Many atheists in Northern Europe celebrate Yule, which predates your Johnny-come-lately party by some millenia.

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Oh Blah Blah Blah! According to a few historians a few things got borrowed, that isn't even close to mockery.

Removable Mind said:

So since I'm an atheist, you're saying that I'm a dick? All atheists are dicks? That tells me just how much you don't have a clue about atheism or anything much about humanity as a whole.

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Psst, Ikari is an athiest himself.

I believe he's speaking about the athiests in question in the OP, not calling all athiests dicks.

LaMidRighter said:

Some people did **** on others beliefs, some people still do. But for the most part the only christians I see starting **** these days are fundamentalists and some of the more fringe Evangelicals. You don't tend to see mainstream Catholics, Baptists, or Protestants doing anything but expressing our own beliefs these days though there are some. Again though, "you did it first" isn't a defense, if Athiests are supposedly better according to the snobs within the movement isn't better behavior preferable?

As well I've seen Atiests pull the "we're outnumbered" card quite a few times. Do you really think it's worth sacrificing the progress you've mentioned by pissing off the faithfull en masse?

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What can I do about it? I can't make them not do this, I don't have that power. They're free to be dicks. I'm surprised that people are surprised that groups of humans have jerks in them as if their groups don't (actually, they often times admit to having their own jerks but somehow think we should be able to keep some better leash on our jerks than they can their jerks). Some of you theists come after atheists because we happen to have a group of dicks that associate with us and run their mouths. Every group has it. Can you shut up those "fundamentalists and some of the more fringe Evangelicals"? No, of course not. They have the right to sit there and run their mouths, they can be dicks so long as they keep within the confines of the law. So why would you think my group is any different? I can't stop the jerks on the atheists side anymore than you can stop the jerks on the theists side. And we all have them. That's that. You get all up in arms about stories like this, but this is just a group of jerks being jerks and nothing more. Jerks are all over the place, they like to **** over everybody's good times. It ain't isolated to one ideology or one group; some humans are just jerks. Why be surprised and be all pissed off at these atheists? They don't represent the whole of atheists, they're just a group of jerks. Everyone's got them.

LaMidRighter said:

Oh Blah Blah Blah! According to a few historians a few things got borrowed, that isn't even close to mockery.

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Lots of things "got borrowed". Easter is another. You know where Easter Eggs and the Easter Bunny came from?

DiAnna said:

No need to patronize me, I'm well aware of those laws and the limitations of Freedom of Speech. My problem is the level of outrage being expressed by some in this thread at the atheist groups and the lack of outrage toward the idiots who thought a lottery for PUBLIC space during a holiday season celebrated by several religions and the secular alike was a great idea. And every winner gets 9 cages? Not one, not two, but 9?

This was poorly done and conceptually stupid. I certainly wouldn't have done it, but there are dingbats in every segment of society. Islam has fundamentalist kooks who like to blow stuff up, Christianity has fundamentalist kooks who like to parade around with "God Hates Fags" signs, Judiasm has fundamentalist kooks who like to burn mosques in the West Bank, and Catholics have fundamentalist kooks who like to dress up as priests and molest alter boys. Secular, non-religious groups have kooks too, like kooks who think it's a great idea to bust Santa, Satan and Jesus in a holiday display.

The level of outrage in this thread is unreasonable, as shown by the amount of anger you've directed toward my post... and me! I certainly didn't mention the Westboro church in my brief, but apparently extremely offensive post. And the last I heard, "I don't believe what you believe" is not covered under the "fighting words" exceptions clause.

Personally, I think the groups putting their "message" across in this manner was foolish. But were they "dicks"? I'd have to meet them personally to have an opinion on that.

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From what I saw, it appears that the atheists got 18 of 21 spots.

American said:

From what I saw, it appears that the atheists got 18 of 21 spots.

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Each person can individually apply for up to 9 cages, two such people did and each somehow got the max, thus 9+9=18.

American said:

From what I saw, it appears that the atheists got 18 of 21 spots.

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Its about time. Too bad they missed the other 3.

Ikari said:

What can I do about it? I can't make them not do this, I don't have that power. They're free to be dicks. I'm surprised that people are surprised that groups of humans have jerks in them as if their groups don't (actually, they often times admit to having their own jerks but somehow think we should be able to keep some better leash on our jerks than they can their jerks). Some of you theists come after atheists because we happen to have a group of dicks that associate with us and run their mouths. Every group has it. Can you shut up those "fundamentalists and some of the more fringe Evangelicals"? No, of course not. They have the right to sit there and run their mouths, they can be dicks so long as they keep within the confines of the law. So why would you think my group is any different? I can't stop the jerks on the atheists side anymore than you can stop the jerks on the theists side. And we all have them. That's that. You get all up in arms about stories like this, but this is just a group of jerks being jerks and nothing more. Jerks are all over the place, they like to **** over everybody's good times. It ain't isolated to one ideology or one group; some humans are just jerks. Why be surprised and be all pissed off at these atheists? They don't represent the whole of atheists, they're just a group of jerks. Everyone's got them.

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To sum it up. You've been more honest than some. My big problem is people excusing the group being dicks, I realize you can't do anything about it because it isn't your action.

Ikari said:

Lots of things "got borrowed". Easter is another. You know where Easter Eggs and the Easter Bunny came from?

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I know. It's disingenuous for him to use the examples earlier. Borrowing symbolism isn't the same thing as mockery.

LaMidRighter said:

I know. It's disingenuous for him to use the examples earlier. Borrowing symbolism isn't the same thing as mockery.

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Nope, the borrowing of symbols was meant to be inclusive. It was a device used to help lure in other beliefs into the new one. The point of usurping the old holidays was to make conversion easier.

Ikari said:

Nope, the borrowing of symbols was meant to be inclusive. It was a device used to help lure in other beliefs into the new one. The point of usurping the old holidays was to make conversion easier.

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I''ve heard that one, but I don't think the historian presenting was completely credible so I don't fully accept that explanation. However I do know that there were some conversion efforts in the very distant past. It's disengenuous for MS to bring it up NOW to excuse a current event.

Ikari said:

Lots of things "got borrowed". Easter is another. You know where Easter Eggs and the Easter Bunny came from?

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???

Zyphlin's Law

Ah the same familiar expected, no one hates christmas denial crowd....every year sameOsameO

Removable Mind said:

Its about time. Too bad they missed the other 3.

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Why is that important to you?

Zyphlin said:

I can only make guesses at their motives, I have no way of knowing them for sure. However, ones motivations don't have to be dickish for the action to still be such.



I don't know if they were trying to be or not, though I do think its likely the former. However, whether it was their intent or not, their actions sure seem to be dickish in their outcome. However, they absolutely have the right to be assholes and to continue to provide further and further positive examples of athiesm.

You know what I've actually just come to realize...

Athiests are the religious equivilent of Ron Paul fans. There's not a lot of them, and the majority of people look at them negatively due to the stereotype that has formed of them. There's a fair amount of completely reasonable and wonderful ones, but it seems the vast majority of the vocal ones are people who play into the stereotype to a T and by and large drive more people away then bring them into the fold. Those vocal ones tend to think they're better than everyone else, that anyone not thinking like them is an idiot, that there's some grand conspiracy against them, and that their view is the only reasonable one and everyone else are idiots for thinking differently.

Athiesism is the Ron Paul of the belief world.....

Suddenly they make SO much more sense to me.

In the wonderfully delicious ironic twist, Redress is a pseudo-Ron Paulite...



Again, local story. Don't have a huge issue with it. I'm pretty sure being annoyed about these people being dicks and speaking with a reporter for a bit of time isn't significantly hampering their ability to do other things like feeding the homeless if they want.

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That sounds like the average religious type. I think that most people want to be special or at the very least, they want to feel as if they are apart of something special. That's what religion does for people. And when other people are blatant about their lack of belief, it really pisses some people off. There are people on both sides of this topic who are acting "dickish."

Grant said:

Why is that important to you?

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The importance lies in the ignorance people have about atheism. Atheism is very simple. It's people who subscribe to the scientific explanation of the origin of the universe. It's not about communism, perversions, the freedom to live our their lives in an amoral way...etc. In fact, most atheists have the highest regard for the preservation of life and liberty. They don't look to get a reprieve in a confession booth.

But I must say, religious persecution, since its beginning, has taken it's toll on many more than just atheists. They don't seem to discriminate when it comes to persecution of those who belief differently. And what really makes it worse is that there are way many more who do believe in a religion who turn on each others as infidels outside their own faith.

Your decision to believe what you will is of no consequence to me unless your beliefs are manifested into inappropriate behaviors that in some serious manner negatively effect others.

evanescence said:

That sounds like the average religious type.

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Indeed, just like the average Republican/Democrat that's very vocal can be JUST as annoying a vocal Ron Paulite. The difference is, because the Republican/Democrats are the "norm" and the "majority" most people have enough experience with ones they know to be Republicans/Democrats that they don't judge those Republicans/Democrats based on their most vocal crazies. Paul fans, unfortunately, are not the norm...there aren't a ton of them...most people don't know a bunch of people who are Paul fans that aren't also the very vocal types, and thus the vocal types become the only real measuring stick those people have.

Similarly...most people know Christians and religious folks. They are far and away the norm and the majority. People are familiar with dozens upon dozens or even hundreds of "average, benign, every day religious folks. Most don't have a ton of familiarity with athiests, and their only real reference to them tends to come from the very vocal of the bunch.

Its not saying one groups vocal minority is worse than the other, but comparing how the vocal minority in both groups (paulites and athiests) tend to be viewed, and do their side no favors, by the masses due to the realities of the situations around them.

I think that most people want to be special or at the very least, they want to feel as if they are apart of something special. That's what religion does for people.

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Its a weird sort of thing. I think people want to be special, while at the same time I think they want to be normal and to "belong" as well. I think religion actually fits more into the latter scope of things. To be frank, I think athiesm by and large far more into the first grouping rather than the second.

And when other people are blatant about their lack of belief, it really pisses some people off.

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Some perhaps. I think by and large people are generally less upset about blatant "lack of belief" an individual may have and more upset with blatant minimizing/belittling of faith other people have. I don't see a lot of people getting upset because someone goes "I Don't believe in god!", I see a fair bit more get upset for someone going "People are foolish to believe in a god!"

There are people on both sides of this topic who are acting "dickish."

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Absolutely. Never suggested otherwise.

Removable Mind said:

The importance lies in the ignorance people have about atheism. Atheism is very simple. It's people who subscribe to the scientific explanation of the origin of the universe. It's not about communism, perversions, the freedom to live our their lives in an amoral way...etc. In fact, most atheists have the highest regard for the preservation of life and liberty. They don't look to get a reprieve in a confession booth.

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So, its important to you that they had gotten all 21 of the 21 spots so that they could've better fight the ignorance people have about athiesm by having 3 more spots that they'd do nothing with and leave empty, thus pissing people off and making them feel like Athiests are essentially jackasses who are just seeking to spoil peoples christmas displays?

Not quite sure you're understanding how fighting ignorance works.

Zyphlin said:

So, its important to you that they had gotten all 21 of the 21 spots so that they could've better fight the ignorance people have about athiesm by having 3 more spots that they'd do nothing with and leave empty, thus pissing people off and making them feel like Athiests are essentially jackasses who are just seeking to spoil peoples christmas displays?

Not quite sure you're understanding how fighting ignorance works.

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It would be spreading the love, brother, spreading the love. You don't want your fellow beings to unnecessarily hurt themselves or others do ya?

Let me repost what I said. Maybe, just maybe somebody in this forum will understand....

The importance lies in the ignorance people have about atheism. Atheism is very simple. It's people who subscribe to the scientific explanation of the origin of the universe. It's not about communism, perversions, the freedom to live our their lives in an amoral way...etc. In fact, most atheists have the highest regard for the preservation of life and liberty. They don't look to get a reprieve in a confession booth.

But I must say, religious persecution, since its beginning, has taken it's toll on many more than just atheists. They don't seem to discriminate when it comes to persecution of those who belief differently. And what really makes it worse is that there are way many more who do believe in a religion who turn on each others as infidels outside their own faith.

Your decision to believe what you will is of no consequence to me unless your beliefs are manifested into inappropriate behaviors that in some serious manner negatively effect others.

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Zyphlin said:

So, its important to you that they had gotten all 21 of the 21 spots so that they could've better fight the ignorance people have about athiesm by having 3 more spots that they'd do nothing with and leave empty, thus pissing people off and making them feel like Athiests are essentially jackasses who are just seeking to spoil peoples christmas displays?

Not quite sure you're understanding how fighting ignorance works.

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Not sure he understands what atheism is either

Removable Mind said:

The importance lies in the ignorance people have about atheism. Atheism is very simple. It's people who subscribe to the scientific explanation of the origin of the universe.

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Removable Mind said:

It would be spreading the love, brother, spreading the love. You don't want your fellow beings to unnecessarily hurt themselves or others do ya?

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Spreading the love by denying people who want to use the areas to decorate them with Christmas decorations the ability to use them so you can do....nothing with them.

Perhaps you should look at yourself when you're questioning why people are apparently "ignorant" about what athiests really want, because you're continuing to provide a wonderful example of why the actions of some athiests make it appear that "athiesm" is very simple...it's about being dicks to people who think differently then you.

How about instead of reposting your post that everyone already read, you explain why it is "important" that athiest groups had gotten 21 of 21 spots (when they aren't using 15 of the 18 spots they already have) to help people not be "ignorant" about what Athiesm is?

Frankly, it seems like acts such as this is what helps continue to keep people ignorant of what athiesm is and having a negative perception of it.

Zyphlin said:

Spreading the love by denying people who want to use the areas to decorate them with Christmas decorations the ability to use them so you can do....nothing with them.

Perhaps you should look at yourself when you're questioning why people are apparently "ignorant" about what athiests really want, because you're continuing to provide a wonderful example of why the actions of some athiests make it appear that "athiesm" is very simple...it's about being dicks to people who think differently then you.

How about instead of reposting your post that everyone already read, you explain why it is "important" that athiest groups had gotten 21 of 21 spots (when they aren't using 15 of the 18 spots they already have) to help people not be "ignorant" about what Athiesm is?

Frankly, it seems like acts such as this is what helps continue to keep people ignorant of what athiesm is and having a negative perception of it.

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Z...lets go back to my explanation, which very clear. There's not an ounce of condescending attitude expressed anywhere in my post. TO REPEAT:

The importance lies in the ignorance people have about atheism. Atheism is very simple. It's people who subscribe to the scientific explanation of the origin of the universe. It's not about communism, perversions, the freedom to live our their lives in an amoral way...etc. In fact, most atheists have the highest regard for the preservation of life and liberty. They don't look to get a reprieve in a confession booth.

But I must say, religious persecution, since its beginning, has taken it's toll on many more than just atheists. They don't seem to discriminate when it comes to persecution of those who belief differently. And what really makes it worse is that there are way many more who do believe in a religion who turn on each others as infidels outside their own faith.

Your decision to believe what you will is of no consequence to me unless your beliefs are manifested into inappropriate behaviors that in some serious manner negatively effect others.

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Atheism is a lack of belief in a God or Gods. It has nothing to do with science, which is neither a belief nor a lack of one.