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Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed

As I said elsewhere, pepper spray is no weapon, it's a spice.

I'm guessing this is being facetious and not serious because it'd be ****ing retarded if you were. Pepper Spray is not fun stuff. I don’t consider it “lethal” (causing death in freak instances or certain limited scenarios doesn’t = lethal to me, elsewise everyone carrying a bottle of water is carrying a deadly weapon) but it’s far from spice.
 
It's all fun and games until someone has an asthma attack and dies, or some lady has a miscarriage.

For both sides frankly. It drives home that non-lethal action can still have bad consequences, and it should drive home to the protestors that there are greater consequences than just those they selfishly think of for themselves only with regards to their dismissal of the law or lawful orders by officers.

Its this kind of crap that should make both sides stand back a bit and evalute this whole thing and the methods being undertaken.
 
Identify the hyper partisan members who will take two different situations (an unintentional termination of a pregnancy and the intentional termination of one) and treat them like the same thing to score political points.

Whether or not they are totally different situations is actually dependent on the reasoning people have for opposing abortion. If they consider fetuses to be full human lives, then they need to view this event from the perspective that the use of pepper spray and blows to the stomach with police batons constitute lethal force (with regard to fetuses). Then they need to look at whether or not lethal force was warranted in these instances (would they be just as supportive of police discharging their firearms into the crowd, for example).

I've seen many people supporting the use of police batons to the stomach and pepper spray in these cases, both of which could qualify as lethal force for a gestating fetus. If people want fetuses to have full rights, then they need to redefine their views about what constitutes lethal force in these situations where an unknown number of fetuses may be present.

Ultimately, it becomes about the consistency of people's logic.

On the reverse side, we have people who support abortion on the basis that until the fetus is born it is n just a bundle of cells that are more up in arms about this than they really should be for the destruction of a collection of cells. It's akin to a bruise in such a logical framework, and is no worse than the pepper spray and blows to the stomache themselves.

If the peorsn opposes or supports abortion for other reasons, they'd have a much different array of responses that could be logically consistent (depending on their specific logic).
 
Whether or not they are totally different situations is actually dependent on the reasoning people have for opposing abortion. If they consider fetuses to be full human lives, then they need to view this event from the perspective that the use of pepper spray and blows to the stomach with police batons constitute lethal force (with regard to fetuses).

In regards to the pepper spray, I can't say. I'd need to see the warning label and training given to police officers with regards to it. I wouldn't think, if not told, that Pepper Spray = Likely to miscarriage. The two things wouldn't even enter my mind as a likely potential side effect. I would absolutely not consider that lethal force.

In regards to the police batons to the stomach. Absolutely, if its found they were aware she was prengant I would agree with that notion. However, you're also requiring that people 1) take her story as the full truth and 2) that in the midst of a large, unruly crowd where there's significant chaos that the cops in question could identify that it was her that had yelled it.

Then they need to look at whether or not lethal force was warranted in these instances (would they be just as supportive of police discharging their firearms into the crowd, for example).

Again in both cases said lethal force hinges on the understanding of the cops that said force would likely or could likely result in lethality. If you fire guns into a crowd of people its a reasonalbe expectation that someone could die. If you pepper spray a crowd of people, it is not a reasonable expectation that such is likely to happen.

I've seen many people supporting the use of police batons to the stomach and pepper spray in these cases, both of which could qualify as lethal force for a gestating fetus. If people want fetuses to have full rights, then they need to redefine their views about what constitutes lethal force in these situations where an unknown number of fetuses may be present.

To a point, I agree. However, I think as in most cases with cops, its a balance of safety of both the people in question and the cops themselves and the reasonable expectations on both sides. If you hear "I'm pregnant" shouted from some random person you can't identify in the midst of an unruly mob of 100 people, I think there's a reasonable expectation that a police officer should attempt to be aware if it becomes obvious who said pregnant person is an respond accordingly but not to put themselves or their duty at risk by forgoing just about any activity towards any person of said group that may have the slightest chance of causing a miscarriage.

Heck, unless there's something about pepper spray I don't know about that specifically can harm pregnancy, stating that pepper spray is "lethal force" for being used on a pregnant woman than touching somoene briskly could be considered that as well since that could cause them to stumble and fall in a crowd which could cause a miscarriage....so by your logic it would seem that if a crowd of people has one person yell "I'm pregnant" the only reasonable stance for a prolifer would be for a cop to just stand still and not jostle anyone or else it could potentially be lethal force.

Ultimately, it becomes about the consistency of people's logic.

I agree, however I think there's a large difference in calling someone a "hypocrite" for issues in logic that need to be extended out to a very long degree and in a very abstract way. Especially in the direction justabubba's comment seemed to be directed on which was focused specifically on the termination aspect, pinpointing both the miscarriage and the abortoin, rather than the fetal rights aspect.

Issues with consistant logic 4 or 5 steps down the line is significantly different to me than being a "hypocrite" .

If the peorsn opposes or supports abortion for other reasons, they'd have a much different array of responses that could be logically consistent (depending on their specific logic).

And again, interesting point. I'd still say that such doesn't indicate the person is a hypocrite as much as it shows the issues with the logical argument .
 
This is unbelievable!!!

Pregnant #OccupySeattle Protester Miscarries After Being Kicked, Pepper Sprayed | Video Cafe


A woman who was pepper sprayed during during a raid on Occupy Seattle last week is blaming police after she miscarried Sunday.

Jennifer Fox, 19, told The Stranger that she had been with the Occupy protests since they started in Westlake Park. She said she was homeless and three months pregnant, but felt the need to join activists during their march last Tuesday.

"I was standing in the middle of the crowd when the police started moving in," Fox recalled. "I was screaming, 'I am pregnant, I am pregnant. Let me through. I am trying to get out.'"

She claimed that police hit her in the stomach twice before pepper spraying her. One officer struck her with his foot and another pushed his bicycle into her. It wasn't clear if either of those incidents were intentional."Right before I turned, both cops lifted their pepper spray and sprayed me. My eyes puffed up and my eyes swelled shut," Fox said.

Seattle Post-Intelligencer photographer Joshua Trujillo snapped a picture of Fox in apparent agony as another activist carried her to an ambulance.Seattle fire department spokesman Kyle Moore told The Washington Post that a 19-year-old pregnant woman was among those that were examined by paramedics.

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Do you expect there'll be sympathy for this young woman? Not in most camps there won't. Three months' pregnant. She had no business being there. They ought to appoint a guardian ad litem for her dead baby and sue her. Complete bumbling idiot.

'Course maybe this is the latest "slip-and-fall scam."

"I was worried about it [when I joined the protests], but I didn't know it would be this bad. I didn't know that a cop would murder a baby that's not born yet... I am trying to get lawyers."
 
Do you expect there'll be sympathy for this young woman? Not in most camps there won't. Three months' pregnant. She had no business being there. They ought to appoint a guardian ad litem for her dead baby and sue her. Complete bumbling idiot.

'Course maybe this is the latest "slip-and-fall scam."

you're right, maggie. we should all be wary of the police knocking us down, or beating us, or assaulting us with pepper spray for no legitimate reason. it's on the people, not the authorities, they are only doing their jobs.

who know if what she says it legit, but why do we condemn the police in other countries for their treatment of protestors but absolve our own police?
 
you're right, maggie. we should all be wary of the police knocking us down, or beating us, or assaulting us with pepper spray for no legitimate reason. it's on the people, not the authorities, they are only doing their jobs.

who know if what she says it legit, but why do we condemn the police in other countries for their treatment of protestors but absolve our own police?

Come on, LibLady. But actually, you're right. We all should definitely be wary of the police knocking us down or assaulting us with pepper spray when we're in the middle of a group of hundreds of people bent on not obeying legitimate orders. Yes. Yes, we should.

The woman is/was an idiot. If something that happened in that demonstration caused her baby's death, that's on her.
 
we disagree. if a direct police action caused this, it's on them.
 
How unfortunate. If this is true the cop should be charged heavily. However, if she was violating laws she should also be charged.
 
Nevermind the responsibility of the police to refrain from beating pregnant women.

She's apparently a homeless pregnant women. I would say the welfare of her baby depends a lot upon the priorities of politics.

A mother's #1 priority is protect her child. The first step for this woman to do that, was to stay away from the protest.

I feel bad for the child, but have zero sympathy for her.

And, while we're on the subject, why are the Libbos outraged? It was just a fetus and a fetus isn't a person. Right?
 
A mother's #1 priority is protect her child. The first step for this woman to do that, was to stay away from the protest.

I feel bad for the child, but have zero sympathy for her.

And, while we're on the subject, why are the Libbos outraged? It was just a fetus and a fetus isn't a person. Right?

so a woman shouldn't drive while pregnant? she has more of a chance of losing her baby in a car accident than at a protest in the u.s.
 
In regards to the pepper spray, I can't say. I'd need to see the warning label and training given to police officers with regards to it. I wouldn't think, if not told, that Pepper Spray = Likely to miscarriage. The two things wouldn't even enter my mind as a likely potential side effect. I would absolutely not consider that lethal force.

The bodily stress caused by being pepper sprayed is such that it cold trigger a miscarriage, not to mention some potential links between large doses of capsaicin and miscarriage.

One common wive's tale told to women in later pregnancy is that they should eat spicy food to induce labor. Like many wive's tales, this one may have a grain of truth to it. My wives ObGyn even recommended it when she was a week late.

In regards to the police batons to the stomach. Absolutely, if its found they were aware she was prengant I would agree with that notion. However, you're also requiring that people 1) take her story as the full truth and 2) that in the midst of a large, unruly crowd where there's significant chaos that the cops in question could identify that it was her that had yelled it.

I disagree that one and two are required. In fact, I would say that all police should operate under the assumption that any woman they are beating about the belly might be pregnant. I would actually put such physical attacks in the "unnecessary force" category if there is no direct physical threat to the officer (such a threat that using his firearm would be appropriate). Any cop that hits a protester, especially a female protester, who is not a direct threat in the stomach deserves to be given identical treatment in return, IMO. Of course, doing the same in return is a crime, while the cops behavior is considered appropraite.


The only thing that is required to hold the view I propose is 1. That any woman can be pregnant and a stomach blow is lethal force against said fetus and 2. that police officers should not be granted extra rights not retained by the people. If I can't legally engage in a behavior, then police officers should be allowed to engage in that same behavior.

If a bunch of people were sitting on my lawn, and I aske dthem to disperse and tehy said no, I would nt be legally allowed to pepper spray them or hit them in the stomach to get them off of my property. I would be charged with felony battery at the very least, and in the case of hitting a person with a baton, I might get charged with assault with a deadly weapon. this is because the people are not real threats to my person.



If you fire guns into a crowd of people its a reasonalbe expectation that someone could die.

Depends on the ammo used. Rubber bullets are considered non-lethal (despite the fact that they do kill). But many people would be bothered by the use of rubber bullets and firearms to disperse a peaceful, albeit disrespectful, crowd.


To a point, I agree. However, I think as in most cases with cops, its a balance of safety of both the people in question and the cops themselves and the reasonable expectations on both sides. If you hear "I'm pregnant" shouted from some random person you can't identify in the midst of an unruly mob of 100 people, I think there's a reasonable expectation that a police officer should attempt to be aware if it becomes obvious who said pregnant person is an respond accordingly but not to put themselves or their duty at risk by forgoing just about any activity towards any person of said group that may have the slightest chance of causing a miscarriage.

My belief is that if a police officer is using physical force at all there needs to be a real risk involved (either to themselves or to others). They should only use force in teh same way that any regular citizen would be allowed to use force. Basically self-defense or defense of another. That obviously clouds my perception of these events.

I don't need to agree with the protesters in their views or tactics to come to the conclusion that the use of force I have seen in many cases was inappropriate (I've only seen the one video where the fat walrus looking cop was walking back and forth pepper spray a bunch of people who were sitting down chanting as well as anotehr video of cops pounding people in the stomach with nightsticks, the former was more egregious than the latter one, actually, but the latter one was borderline).

What I find disturbing, though, is that agreement or disagreement with the cause and movement is the primary determinant of whether or not some people think excessive force is used (not all, but some). that mentality is hypocricy, because the cause is irrelevant. Hell, we should be defending those we disagree with even more vehemently than those we agree with.


Heck, unless there's something about pepper spray I don't know about that specifically can harm pregnancy, stating that pepper spray is "lethal force" for being used on a pregnant woman than touching somoene briskly could be considered that as well since that could cause them to stumble and fall in a crowd which could cause a miscarriage....so by your logic it would seem that if a crowd of people has one person yell "I'm pregnant" the only reasonable stance for a prolifer would be for a cop to just stand still and not jostle anyone or else it could potentially be lethal force.

Touching someone briskly does not cause cardiac and respiratory distress. Pepper spray does. Those are very real risks on the fetus of a pregnant women. The very things that cause pepper spray to be effective are things that simple common sense tells us places fetuses at risk.

That's a far cry from brisk touching and doesn't require any special knowledge about pepper spray other than what it does to people.



Issues with consistant logic 4 or 5 steps down the line is significantly different to me than being a "hypocrite" .

Hypocrisy depends on the motivation for the logical inconsistency more than anything else. If the reasoning for their logical inconsistency is primarily because they disagree with the protesters, then they are certainly being hypocrites. But if it's because they failed to think their logic through to it's conclusion, it's not hypocrisy.

My point isn't necessarily about hypocrisy so much as it is about how the situations can be considered the same given a specific logical framework.
 
so a woman shouldn't drive while pregnant? she has more of a chance of losing her baby in a car accident than at a protest in the u.s.

Why come up with an example which proves nothing to support a belief? No one is saying that a woman should not drive when pregnant, but if the drive results in accident which results in a miscarriage, no one is to blame, especially the cop that covers the accident. All life is a calculated risk. Some risks are worth taking, some are not. If I had a child to protect, born or unborn, I would not stand them in the middle of a crowd in a highly volatile situation.
 
Some states have laws that rightfully make it illegal to kill a fetus. The right course of action would be charging the cop with the unlawful killing of a fetus while also charging the woman with whatever laws she was violating. Justice for the unborn killed and for the woman who violated the laws, this is the right course of action imo.
 
so a woman shouldn't drive while pregnant? she has more of a chance of losing her baby in a car accident than at a protest in the u.s.

Isn't driving kinda necessary? How necessary was it for her to be at the protest? I'm thinking not at all. Whatcha' think?

Maybe she shouldn't go to the hospital when she goes into labor, because there might be a surgical mistake, too.

Anymore stupid examples to prove your point?

Why do you care about a dead fetus, anyway? There are thousands of fetuses murdered everyday and you seem too upset about that.
 
so a woman shouldn't drive while pregnant? she has more of a chance of losing her baby in a car accident than at a protest in the u.s.

If she chose to drive in a demolition derby, she's an idiot.
If she chose to bungey jump, she's an idiot,
If she chose to put herself into any potentially dangerous situation, she's an idiot.

It's always gotta be somebody else's fault. Personal accountability? He died twenty years ago.

General comment: Liberals always seem to find someone else to blame. Big-Bad_______ (insert group that applies). Whatever happened to responsibility? He died, too.
 
It's sad that she lost her baby. But I am not going to immediately blame any police for it without more information and a medical report, especially since she is homeless and living outside in Seattle (which is sad in itself).

The protesters were blocking traffic and given warning that pepper spray was going to be used. She must have been in the group at the intersection of 5th Ave and Pine St refusing to move in order to have been sprayed.

If she was really kicked by a police officer, then that cop should be investigated for using too much force (providing she wasn't doing anything violent against the cop). However, it is not reasonable to assume that the cop should have really had any reason to believe the woman was pregnant since she was only 3 months along and not exactly showing and it was most likely very loud there. Unless an investigation revealed a cop did kick her in the stomach knowing she was pregnant because he heard her or reasonably should have heard her, there is no way that he should be charged with the death of the fetus. Same thing for the cop on the bike, and he was even less likely to cause a miscarriage. Unless she was run over by the bike, which wouldn't fit with her story of being sprayed by both cops immediately after.

I have a lot of doubt about the validity of her claim. Her being a part of the Occupy Seattle movement and having specifically been a part of that particular incident very likely could have played a major part in the miscarriage due to the stress of it. But I highly doubt the OC spray itself caused her to miscarry in away. Being sprayed may have led to stress causing the miscarriage, but I don't think it could have been the spray itself. It had to be cold outside and the baby was still fine until almost a week after the incident. Seems a little weird that either kicked or especially shot with pepper spray would cause a person to miscarry a week later. Stress from the situation she is in, yes, but I can't see the other things being directly responsible. Maybe her medical records and possibly some footage of the cop kicking her or perhaps the bruise he left.
 
It's sad that she lost her baby. But I am not going to immediately blame any police for it without more information and a medical report, especially since she is homeless and living outside in Seattle (which is sad in itself).

The protesters were blocking traffic and given warning that pepper spray was going to be used. She must have been in the group at the intersection of 5th Ave and Pine St refusing to move in order to have been sprayed.

If she was really kicked by a police officer, then that cop should be investigated for using too much force (providing she wasn't doing anything violent against the cop). However, it is not reasonable to assume that the cop should have really had any reason to believe the woman was pregnant since she was only 3 months along and not exactly showing and it was most likely very loud there. Unless an investigation revealed a cop did kick her in the stomach knowing she was pregnant because he heard her or reasonably should have heard her, there is no way that he should be charged with the death of the fetus. Same thing for the cop on the bike, and he was even less likely to cause a miscarriage. Unless she was run over by the bike, which wouldn't fit with her story of being sprayed by both cops immediately after.

I have a lot of doubt about the validity of her claim. Her being a part of the Occupy Seattle movement and having specifically been a part of that particular incident very likely could have played a major part in the miscarriage due to the stress of it. But I highly doubt the OC spray itself caused her to miscarry in away. Being sprayed may have led to stress causing the miscarriage, but I don't think it could have been the spray itself. It had to be cold outside and the baby was still fine until almost a week after the incident. Seems a little weird that either kicked or especially shot with pepper spray would cause a person to miscarry a week later. Stress from the situation she is in, yes, but I can't see the other things being directly responsible. Maybe her medical records and possibly some footage of the cop kicking her or perhaps the bruise he left.

The article does not say she was hit with a baton...does not say she was kicked in the stomach...all assumptions based on cry-babies' notions that police brutality is at the root of every incident OWS is involved in. Protesting involves some risk. If ya' can't stand the heat, get outa' the freakin' kitchen.
 
If she chose to drive in a demolition derby, she's an idiot.
If she chose to bungey jump, she's an idiot,
If she chose to put herself into any potentially dangerous situation, she's an idiot.

It's always gotta be somebody else's fault. Personal accountability? He died twenty years ago.

General comment: Liberals always seem to find someone else to blame. Big-Bad_______ (insert group that applies). Whatever happened to responsibility? He died, too.

In many cases, Maggie, I agree with you. In this one, I do not. The reason is that while a pregnant person should avoid dangerous situations, a protest being dangerous is not as predictable as sky diving. In cases where there is a legitimate unknown, its not this lady's fault.
 
The bodily stress caused by being pepper sprayed is such that it cold trigger a miscarriage, not to mention some potential links between large doses of capsaicin and miscarriage.

One common wive's tale told to women in later pregnancy is that they should eat spicy food to induce labor. Like many wive's tales, this one may have a grain of truth to it. My wives ObGyn even recommended it when she was a week late.

Hadn't heard that wives tell before. My cooking wouldn't do them much good it seems, I'm a wuss when it comes to spice.

As I said, is such warnings on the label of the pepper spray or included in police training? I honestly don't know, thus why I'm asking. Not necessarily for your opinion or your knowledge of it, but what would be commonly available to the cops in question. You state later its "common sense". Well Tucker, I frankly disagree. Prior to this conversation it wouldn't have even crossed my mind that pepper spray would potentially cause a miscarriage. I imagine perhaps that not having been with a pregnant wife or much younger siblings, so not having a ton of experience with pregnancies, may be a part of that. But I don't think its fair to term it as "common sense".

Now, I understand your views with regards to cops. However, I think you're taking your PERSONAL views of how cops should act and allowing that to transpose itself onto how you feel people should "logically" feel if they are pro-life, which I think is a bit off base. Additionally, your own logic makes little sense in regards to your belief of the cops not being able to do more than an average citizen could do. For example, you give the situation on your yard. You don't want the cops to be able to do more than you could do with regards to them on your yard, yet if that was the case you'd have no recourse at all for them being on your yard as you can't imprision them, you can't charge them with a crime, you can't arrest them...which means, by your logic, the cop shouldn't be able to either because a cop should only be able to do what a citizen can do.

I agree completely with you in regards to the over use of force. No, cops aren't perfect angels and they can absolutely abuse their authority. That said, when large groups of people are violating the law for a substantial amount of time in such a way that its significantly affecting the rights of others as well I don't have an issue with cops taking action to attempt to fix the issue rather than just stand by and let it occur until the people get sick of breaking the law. (not saying necessarily that was the case here. I don't honestly know what the case was here, and I don't think any of us really do).

I also disagree that the level of threat to a police officer is essentially Zero to "Lethal" as you seem to suggest by saying they shouldn't use force unless its a situation they would need to pull their gun. Additionally, in mob settings "direct" threats are not necessarily the issue. For example if you've got 40 people piling forward barreling you over identifying one as a "direct" threat may be questionable; that person is just marching, that person is just protesting, etc. However, when you have a large host acting it creates a different situation and can cause other forms of danger and problems.

I know, from a self defense stand point, if I have a gang of 10 guys coming at me, threatening me, yelling at me, posing a threat but not directly attacking me and then one takes a swing at me...I'm not treating that ONE guy as my only enemy or target or threat. Every one of those guys right there along side him, participating in the exact same kind of threatening action, had identified themselves as a potential threat and will be treated in kind if they make any indication what so ever towards my direction once that initial one had made a direct attack...because by positioning oneself as part of a group, in part in the immeidete situation, the individuals of that groups actions are reflected on the whole unless given ample reason to view otherwise. Similarly, if one guy at the front of a big mob chucks a bottle at a cop I view that as a direct attack on him. If 10 other guys are standing around him screaming, yelling, and waving a bottle as well I have no problem with that cop viewing all those individuals as a similar threat and assaslent. If those 10 guys, upon seeing the bottle thrown, shut up and stopped brandishing hteir bottles making it apparent they were not looking to engage in similar action then that'd be a different story and if the cop reacted to them all as attackers then I'd have issue.
 
I don't care who you are or what cause you are supporting, going to a protest like this pregnant means you don't have your priorities straight. She has no one but herself to blame.
 
How unfortunate. If this is true the cop should be charged heavily. However, if she was violating laws she should also be charged.

I think that in order to charge the cop, you would have to show intent and knowledge that she was pregnant. I'm not a lawyer and those are not legal terms. I suspect that if you flashed a stream of photos of women 3 months pregnant randomly with photos of non pregnant women at three second intervals, very few would guess much greater than random, particularly if the women were bundled up in clothes appropriate for standing in the street in Seattle at this time of year. Hindsight is always easier than foresight, and at this point, I have seen nothing but the allegations from the woman. Surely no conflict of interest there.
 
In many cases, Maggie, I agree with you. In this one, I do not. The reason is that while a pregnant person should avoid dangerous situations, a protest being dangerous is not as predictable as sky diving. In cases where there is a legitimate unknown, its not this lady's fault.

Any woman who didn't understand the danger she's putting her child in, by participating in this protest is too stupid to be a parent and should be sterilized.
 
The article does not say she was hit with a baton...does not say she was kicked in the stomach...all assumptions based on cry-babies' notions that police brutality is at the root of every incident OWS is involved in. Protesting involves some risk. If ya' can't stand the heat, get outa' the freakin' kitchen.

I didn't say anything about her being hit with a baton (not that I can remember or find anyway). If I did, it was definitely a mistake.

She claims she was kicked in the stomach and hit with a bike by two different police officers. I am basing what I said off of that. If she was kicked in the stomach by a police officer without actually doing anything but blocking traffic, I'd call that excessive force. The bike incident, if it happened at all, was almost certainly an accident. I doubt a cop would purposely hit someone with a bike without knocking them down.

That being said, I doubt her claims are very close to the true story. Very little evidence exists that cops hit, kicked, or ran into her at all yet. And I doubt very much that being sprayed with pepper spray is likely to cause a miscarriage a week later. Possible? Sure. What is more likely is the stress of being sprayed and what led to getting sprayed actually being the cause, not the chemicals in the spray. And if it was the stress from that, then it is her fault for putting herself in that position. If it was from getting kicked by the cop, there's proof of this (unlikely though, since most miscarriages are hard to identify a specific cause, especially a week after an incident) and proof is found that he kicked her without provocation, then it is his fault. Without a lot of evidence to support her story and that the cop heard her say she was pregnant, I wouldn't agree with charging him for fetal homicide or anything like that.
 
In many cases, Maggie, I agree with you. In this one, I do not. The reason is that while a pregnant person should avoid dangerous situations, a protest being dangerous is not as predictable as sky diving. In cases where there is a legitimate unknown, its not this lady's fault.

Well, of course, we'll agree to disagree. But my take on it is, "Would you think it prudent to take a 3-year-old to one of these demonstrations?" If that 3-year-old were injured by no direct action of coppers toward that 3-year-old, whose fault would it be? No one's? I don't take that stance. I take the stance that it is a parent's responsibility not to put her child into such a situation. And any protest attended by hundreds, if not thousands, of people, is risky. That's just the fact. No opinion required.

I didn't say anything about her being hit with a baton (not that I can remember or find anyway). If I did, it was definitely a mistake.

She claims she was kicked in the stomach and hit with a bike by two different police officers. I am basing what I said off of that. If she was kicked in the stomach by a police officer without actually doing anything but blocking traffic, I'd call that excessive force. The bike incident, if it happened at all, was almost certainly an accident. I doubt a cop would purposely hit someone with a bike without knocking them down.

That being said, I doubt her claims are very close to the true story. Very little evidence exists that cops hit, kicked, or ran into her at all yet. And I doubt very much that being sprayed with pepper spray is likely to cause a miscarriage a week later. Possible? Sure. What is more likely is the stress of being sprayed and what led to getting sprayed actually being the cause, not the chemicals in the spray. And if it was the stress from that, then it is her fault for putting herself in that position. If it was from getting kicked by the cop, there's proof of this (unlikely though, since most miscarriages are hard to identify a specific cause, especially a week after an incident) and proof is found that he kicked her without provocation, then it is his fault. Without a lot of evidence to support her story and that the cop heard her say she was pregnant, I wouldn't agree with charging him for fetal homicide or anything like that.

I sorta' kinda' almost agree. ;)
 
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