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Occupy Wall Street Enters Its Fourth Day, Tensions Rise

1Perry said:
This is the way I see it and if people really wanted to make a difference and not just play politics they would take advantage of it. The OWS and The Tea Party at least on the surface overlaps quite a bit. Where they differ is in the solution after the fact. That's a major diference but still we'll never get there without changes to start with.

If someone really cared about this they would get the two together with the understanding that they could go their seperate ways after they had enacted changes. Both are upset with D.C. catering to Wall Street. OWS at least as far as I can tell, and that is hard to tell because there is no cohesive position yet, but they seem to feel that the government should do more for main street where the Tea Party feels that the government needs to leave people alone.

IMO there is room for both if we could get Washington to quit sucking at the teat of Wall Street.
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OWS has a Delcaration posted on their website. I would urge people to read the Declaration of Occupation of NYC and provide feedback.

Admittedly, some of the things they apparently stand for are of little consequence to most middle-class Americans, such as, "They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices". But much of what they want makes very good sense.
 
Objective Voice said:
OWS has a Delcaration posted on their website. I would urge people to read the Declaration of Occupation of NYC and provide feedback.

Admittedly, some of the things they apparently stand for are of little consequence to most middle-class Americans, such as, "They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices". But much of what they want makes very good sense.
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Hey, thanks, I appreciate it.

Yes, there are some real fringe positions there but I'll not let the fringe stop me from supporting the bigger picture.
 
1Perry said:
Hey, thanks, I appreciate it.

Yes, there are some real fringe positions there but I'll not let the fringe stop me from supporting the bigger picture.
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Well, I want to say that the valid "bigger picture" are the more Conservative/Libertarian positions of no more bail-outs, that being government cash to businesses, which would seem to include not only bank bail-outs, but also GM, Solyndra, etc. And if they want to reduce the influence of big-money then it is not only corporate money, but union money as well, which has corrupted just as much.

And now we have a problem. This movement is not against cronie capitalism such as GM and Solyndra. This movement is not against Union money. This movement is not for goals that improve the marketplace of both politics and/or business. This movement is about fomenting more government intervention so as to redistribute. This movement is about fomenting liberalism. This movement is a fraud, meant to advance bigger liberal government.
 
Eighty Deuce said:
Well, I want to say that the valid "bigger picture" are the more Conservative/Libertarian positions of no more bail-outs, that being government cash to businesses, which would seem to include not only bank bail-outs, but also GM, Solyndra, etc. And if they want to reduce the influence of big-money then it is not only corporate money, but union money as well, which has corrupted just as much.

And now we have a problem. This movement is not against cronie capitalism such as GM and Solyndra. This movement is not against Union money. This movement is not for goals that improve the marketplace of both politics and/or business. This movement is about fomenting more government intervention so as to redistribute. This movement is about fomenting liberalism. This movement is a fraud, meant to advance bigger liberal government.
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We'll see. The enemy of my enemy and all.

If they want to argue that bailing out banks is bad but GM isn't, at least half of my position is being pursued as opposed to none of it.
 
sangha said:
LOL!!

Only the police syncophants could this proves anything about the police when it was about a rightwing agitator who was caught in a fraud
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English mother ****er.... do you speak it? I can't seem to understand what you are trying to say through all the grammatical errors.

And funny how you never said that the protesters always accuse the police of always being with whatever cause they are against. It sounds like that was made up for convenience sakes.
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Ummm..... its obvious you are trolling. You haven't been paying attention.
 
Caine said:
Exactly.
For the most part I have no issue with those who are protesting..... its when idiots show up and begin acting like fools, and then the rest follow suit because by this point the protesters have a "Us vs Them" mentality when it comes to the police officers.

Sadly, police officers get accused of being biased FOR whatever cause the protesters are against... in nearly.... every... single.... protest. If that doesn't tell you something about those that are doing the accusing.... I don't know what will.
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What do you know Sangha.... right here in this thread........
 
washunut said:
That is the problem. First you want "jobs", but do not care if a company moves thousands of jobs that pay very well. Seems counterproductive to me. To talk about which you would choose is disingenuous as one has nothing to do with the other.
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Of course I care about jobs being here but in no way or fashion should they dictate to our society under what conditions they will be here. That is the side of "free market" that means, "we'll come back if we can pay the same tax rates and wages as we do in Somalia." Instead we should be dictating to them the standards by which they do business in our country. It's why free trade should die an ugly death so we can go back to fair trade which is the standard we had from the inception of this country all the way until the 1980's which, IMO, was one helluva great economic ride going from 13 bizarre segregated states to the preeminent world power.
 
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poweRob said:
Of course I care about jobs being here but in no way or fashion should they dictate to our society under what conditions they will be here. That is the side of "free market" that means, "we'll come back if we can pay the same tax rates and wages as we do in Somalia." Instead we should be dictating to them the standards by which they do business in our country. It's why free trade should die an ugly death so we can go back to fair trade which is the standard we had from the inception of this country all the way until the 1980's which, IMO, was one helluva great economic ride going from 13 bizarre segregated states to the preeminent world power.
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This is one of the three legs of the stool on which we pretty much agree. "Trade" is not as it used to be. We have no advantage as Americans that others cannot replicate almost overnight, paying dirt wages. Access to our markets has been made too easy for too many paying dirt.

The second leg is local energy development, as we import too much from elsewhere.

The third is a completely new tax code, where influence has no value.
 
Eighty Deuce said:
Well, I want to say that the valid "bigger picture" are the more Conservative/Libertarian positions of no more bail-outs, that being government cash to businesses, which would seem to include not only bank bail-outs, but also GM, Solyndra, etc. And if they want to reduce the influence of big-money then it is not only corporate money, but union money as well, which has corrupted just as much.

And now we have a problem. This movement is not against cronie capitalism such as GM and Solyndra. This movement is not against Union money. This movement is not for goals that improve the marketplace of both politics and/or business. This movement is about fomenting more government intervention so as to redistribute. This movement is about fomenting liberalism. This movement is a fraud, meant to advance bigger liberal government.
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From the Declaration:

...that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments.
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What most people likely will take away from the above passage is that the Occupy movement is anti-corporation/anti-business. But they'd be incorrect.

What the above passage is really saying is the Occupiers are anti-corruption, and that this sentiment equally applies to our politicians and our judicial system as well. What the Occupy movement is trying to convey, IMO, is right now our government has done more to protect and uplift the corporate interests but have widely ignored the People's interest.

For example, the Declaration speaks to banks being bailed out by the taxpayers, but instead of them turning around and modifying loans to keep people in their homes they instead found ways to delay processing loan modifications and in some cases still foreclosed on people even after they had followed the rules.

Another example can be found in the accusation that "they have sold our privacy as a commodity". Most people might scratch their heads over this one, but if you've bothered to read the Privacy Policy on websites such as Incomeathome.com, what you'll find is once you complete the online order form your personal information is distributed to atleast one "independent Representative" who isn't even employed by "the Company". This isn't to put down the owners of the Incomeathome.com website, but rather to illustrate how your privacy is given access to or "sold" in unfair ways. Of course, some will say that if you don't want your personal information to be shared by entities you don't know anything about the best thing you can do is not subscribe to the site. But here's the rub: These type arrangements aren't just with online business opportunities like the aforementioned website; they're everywhere and most of us don't even know it! Because we assume these such business opportunities are on the up-and-up and will only collect our personal information with our direct consent. We assume that when we complete the online order form that only that business entity will receive that information and use it only to process our oder, not to share it with an "outside entity" that has not direct affiliation with the Company.

Once you truly come to understand how we all have been laid victim by the government (politician)/corporate interest (lobbyist) partnership and how government no longer puts the interest of the People ahead of the interest of corporations - because right now it's all about protecting prosperity - then and only then will "We, the People" begin to stand up and flush out the corrupt politicians and start living up to Lincoln's ideal of "a government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth".
 
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While a couple of their complaints sound nobel, what these moochers are about is more government and redistribution of wealth to them. This is Obama reelection 101.
 
Eighty Deuce said:
While a couple of their complaints sound nobel, what these moochers are about is more government and redistribution of wealth to them. This is Obama reelection 101.
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Or you could just try to understand.
 
Eighty Deuce said:
While a couple of their complaints sound nobel, what these moochers are about is more government and redistribution of wealth to them. This is Obama reelection 101.
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when you see crap coming from those losers such as getting rid of all existing debt (ie stealing from banks, lenders etc) what you see are thieves and parasites
 
1Perry said:
This is the way I see it and if people really wanted to make a difference and not just play politics they would take advantage of it. The OWS and The Tea Party at least on the surface overlaps quite a bit. Where they differ is in the solution after the fact. That's a major diference but still we'll never get there without changes to start with.

If someone really cared about this they would get the two together with the understanding that they could go their seperate ways after they had enacted changes. Both are upset with D.C. catering to Wall Street. OWS at least as far as I can tell, and that is hard to tell because there is no cohesive position yet, but they seem to feel that the government should do more for main street where the Tea Party feels that the government needs to leave people alone.

IMO there is room for both if we could get Washington to quit sucking at the teat of Wall Street.
Click to expand...

Looks like that is already happening:

"This is a letter to OWS from FedUpUSA, one of the original Tea Parties:

We support you in exercising your First Amendment Right. We are outraged that any peaceful demonstrator would be assaulted or abused by any authorities.

If you are protesting because there are no jobs— We stand with you.

We are for a free economy and recognize that what we have now is NOT a free economy; it is not capitalism – what we have is a fascist state or crony-capitalism. There is nothing free about doing business with Countries that manipulate their currencies to attract cheap labor. We agree that these jobs need to come back to America.

If you are protesting because no one has gone to jail— We stand with you.

Regardless of what is being said from the white house and media, we know that there are many in the financial district and the banks that have committed fraud and outright theft and we too want to see them prosecuted. We support: STOP THE LOOTING & START PROSECUTING.

If you are protesting because everything costs more— We stand with you.

We see prices rise in our food, gas, clothes yet our wages have stayed the same or have decreased. The Federal Reserve has bailed everyone out but us and not only are we going to have to pay for that, those bailouts make the price of everything else go up because it devalues our currency. We support monetary reform.

If you are protesting because you are tired of our bought and paid for government on both sides— We stand with you.

We are also against the banks and big corporations buying our politicians and writing laws that favor their special interests. We understand that our economy is broken BECAUSE of this and that all of our other issues will never be addressed as long as the financial elite control OUR government.

We understand that these issues cross party lines and ideologies and effect each and every one of us. We also understand that these issues will never get fixed as long as we continue to let the media, the elite, and members of the government separate us by our differing ideologies.

Only Together, can we Implement Change."

An Open Letter From FedUpUSA To Occupy Wall Street Protestors All Over The Country
 
I have found humor!

 
sangha said:
In that case, you don't get the facts

Commodity futures are not derivatives
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They are: Derivative Definition

There's no point argueing against financial instruments, it's just a piece of paper, it's how it's used. People can use money for corruption, it doesn't make money a bad financial instrument.

As to how it's used: it's not easy to regulate the financial markets, it's changing so fast, a lot of the people who uses these new instruments sometimes don't fully understand it, let alone the regulators. These are smart people who are sometimes PhDs in mathematics. If you ban one sort of derivative, another will pop up that do about the same thing but in a way that get around the law. If you ban shorting, you create an imbalance in the market for price discovery. One way it can be improved though is to make the transactions more transparent, though it would costs the firms more.

These bankers' job is to make money, they deal with abstract numbers and care only about how to move it around so it results in bigger bottom lines, so blaming them for doing their job well doesn't make a lot of sense, if you allow the job to exist. What can be done is highlighting the tie between the money and the politicians, but thousand of years of history have shown that most politicians will do what the money tells them to do.

BTW, I totally supported the bailout, it would have been much worse for the everyday folks if the banks were allowed to fail, resulting in actual widespread runs on the banks. The FDIC could not pay all the deposits it insured if confidence were not restored to the system.
 
Eighty Deuce said:
This is one of the three legs of the stool on which we pretty much agree. "Trade" is not as it used to be. We have no advantage as Americans that others cannot replicate almost overnight, paying dirt wages. Access to our markets has been made too easy for too many paying dirt.

The second leg is local energy development, as we import too much from elsewhere.

The third is a completely new tax code, where influence has no value.
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The strong arm that we still hold is that we have the market that everyone wants access to. IMO, if you want access to our markets then you have to play by our rules. Rules like, you can't ignore our patents and sell us pirated **** made by the children in your prisons.
 
Frolicking Dinosaurs said:
News the violence by law enforcement has apparently gone global. Was just reading an international discussion board taking about an escaped prisoner the FBI located in Portugal:
The gist of the discussion is that Portugal should not return him to the US because the videos of what the police are doing to peaceful protestors and Gitmo prove the US cannot be trusted to give the prisoner even basic human rights. The Portuguese courts have not yet decided if he will be returned to the US or not.
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I have to say that's quite illogical. Just because some police spray on protestors doesn't mean the police cannot be "trusted to give the prisoner even basic human rights". Do the police event run the prison system? The guy hijacked a plane, if there's an extradition agreement, he should be sent back to the US to face the US justice system as his accomplices have. If the prison system is mistreating inmates, let's see those evidence and deal with it since it's a separate issue.
 
Catawba said:
So what is your feeling about this video you posted?
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I feel bad for the police at the end. It looks claustrophobic where they were, if you were caught in what you think are a hostile group of hundreds of people, wouldn't you act out in defense of yourself? It's the policeman who went around spraying people indiscriminately that helped these protestors cause. And police actions like seeming to lead the protestors onto the bridge then turn around and arrest them. The protestors are doing about the same thing - baiting the police into violence is also a kind of entrapment.
 
TurtleDude said:
when you see crap coming from those losers such as getting rid of all existing debt (ie stealing from banks, lenders etc) what you see are thieves and parasites
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Yep, kind of like people that complain about paying their fair share of taxes......
 
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