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Profits soar amid mass layoffs

Helix said:
if they don't start hiring, i find it difficult to believe that people will have the discretionary income to continue purchasing their products.
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Many of the cash rich companies are tech related. It does not seem that Apple is having much trouble on the demand side.
 
washunut said:
Many of the cash rich companies are tech related. It does not seem that Apple is having much trouble on the demand side.
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It doesn't take much for a Chinese robot to put a computer together.
 
winston53660 said:
It doesn't take much for a Chinese robot to put a computer together.
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Correct, so the fact that they a lot of cash and the unemployment issue are not related. It is another straw man made by folks who do not understand business.
 
washunut said:
Correct, so the fact that they a lot of cash and the unemployment issue are not related. It is another straw man made by folks who do not understand business.
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Or perhaps a consumer driven economy isn't all its cracked up to be?
 
Or perhaps there is more going on here, however to consider that means no witty bumper sticker logic.
 
winston53660 said:
Or perhaps a consumer driven economy isn't all its cracked up to be?
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that as well. But we have allowed our manufacturing base to crumble, so what are our choices.
 
washunut said:
that as well. But we have allowed our manufacturing base to crumble, so what are our choices.
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Right now we are pretty much tied with China as far as manufacturing goes.


And if I were to make prediction of the future I do not think manufacturing will be the force it had once been back in the hey day of say like GM.
 
winston53660 said:
Right now we are pretty much tied with China as far as manufacturing goes.


And if I were to make prediction of the future I do not think manufacturing will be the force it had once been back in the hey day of say like GM.
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So if you believe that then you have to also believe our "middle class" will continue to shrink.
 
washunut said:
So if you believe that then you have to also believe our "middle class" will continue to shrink.
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If trickle downs remains yeah. But not because of a business model changing.
 
winston53660 said:
If trickle downs remains yeah. But not because of a business model changing.
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not sure what you mean by the first part of your answer. As to the business model changing, it changed about 20 years ago when we started moving our factories first to Mexico and then Asia.
 
washunut said:
not sure what you mean by the first part of your answer. As to the business model changing, it changed about 20 years ago when we started moving our factories first to Mexico and then Asia.
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I think trickle down taxation is destructive to the middle class more so than any other factor.

And as far as the business model changing I'm talking about things like Facebook. A company valued at 100 billion with minimal capital investment employing 2.5k people.
 
winston53660 said:
I think trickle down taxation is destructive to the middle class more so than any other factor.

And as far as the business model changing I'm talking about things like Facebook. A company valued at 100 billion with minimal capital investment employing 2.5k people.
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The last part is a key reason for wealth disparity. Read Tom friedman's The World is Flat. The average American factory worker has to compete with factory workers all over the world. The capital to build the factories which employ these factory workers will go wherever it can make the greatest return. That is just the way things work. If we want more of a middle class you have to lure capital here.
 
MrVicchio said:
I say rock on for the companies. They are doing what is smart for the business. They don't exist to provide jobs.
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And how long can YOU exist in a land where there is shrinking employment for large numbers of people who can vote

How long can you pretend that this is not a disturbing trend in which millions and millions of people are simply superfluous and no longer necessary to feed the corporate machine?

How long can you pretend that companies can embrace technology instead of workers and there is no real future for tens of millions of Americans?

How long can you pretend that America is not sliding downhill towards becoming a two level society with the rich getting richer and everybody else struggling to just not fall off the damn cliff?

From the attitude expressed my many right wingers here - I would say one hell of a long time. Too bad this country is going to hell on a roller coaster and the right wingers onsessed with themselves over all others in society are doing their best to grease the skids so the car crashes all the sooner.
 
haymarket said:
From the attitude expressed my many right wingers here - I would say one hell of a long time. Too bad this country is going to hell on a roller coaster and the right wingers onsessed with themselves over all others in society are doing their best to grease the skids so the car crashes all the sooner.
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If only it was that simple. I don't have a real bone to pick with your post except that it is only one sided. On the one side is the arguement that it is cheaper to use overseas labor. That might be true in the short term pic but it's killer in the long term picture. Some of this will fix itself but the idea that success is based only on this years financial statement is destructive. With that, I imagine you would agree.

To compete though, the middle class (or otherwise known as employee's) are going to have to accept changes that are long term benificial. They do have to accept cuts in many situations so that the manufacturer can better compete with overseas labor. To do that doesn't take the wages they pay in China either. But fighting tooth and nails against any concessions has to stop also.

When everyone else is accepting cuts it means the government must also. No, simply accepting less in profits will not solve this alone.
 
That is only true if the old rules and the old laws and the old mindset about a company and its obligations hold true. And therein lies the answer.
 
haymarket said:
That is only true if the old rules and the old laws and the old mindset about a company and its obligations hold true. And therein lies the answer.
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There is a major problem with your comment about a company's obligations. That is when you look at global companies, many have most of their revenues and employees in countires outside the U.S. Why do you feel that such companies owe more loyalty to workers in the U.S. than workers elsewhere.

When I say we are largely uncompetitive here in the U.S. for many jobs one of the things that could help that would be a single payer health care system. Companies that provide HC in the U.S. pay more for just that benefit than workers get as total comp in Asia.
 
haymarket said:
That is only true if the old rules and the old laws and the old mindset about a company and its obligations hold true. And therein lies the answer.
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That really said nothing.
 
washunut said:
There is a major problem with your comment about a company's obligations. That is when you look at global companies, many have most of their revenues and employees in countires outside the U.S. Why do you feel that such companies owe more loyalty to workers in the U.S. than workers elsewhere.

When I say we are largely uncompetitive here in the U.S. for many jobs one of the things that could help that would be a single payer health care system. Companies that provide HC in the U.S. pay more for just that benefit than workers get as total comp in Asia.
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Because I believe America is better than the rest and I believe the American people deserve better. We started this nation to have a place to be the best. Lets make that happen for everyone - or at least the broadest amount of society we can do so with. If American companies want to survive for another fifty years, another one hundred years and more they must come to the table and resolve this fundamental issue. As technology increases, much labor which used to be necessary and important becomes unnecessary and superfluous. Scores of millions of people - especially the less intelligent and less talented - are going to be like tits on the proverbial bull. And they vote and they get angry and they will not accept a status of being useless and watch while right wing politicians discuss curbing their "entitlements" and curbing their "welfare programs" and imposing martial economic law on their cities and towns.

I agree with you on the health care issue. We are of like mind on that.
 
atrasicarius said:
You seem to be forgetting that there's another side to the capitalist equation called the employee. Who gives two ****s about them though, right?
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labor is a commodity
 
haymarket said:
Because I believe America is better than the rest and I believe the American people deserve better. We started this nation to have a place to be the best. Lets make that happen for everyone - or at least the broadest amount of society we can do so with. If American companies want to survive for another fifty years, another one hundred years and more they must come to the table and resolve this fundamental issue. As technology increases, much labor which used to be necessary and important becomes unnecessary and superfluous. Scores of millions of people - especially the less intelligent and less talented - are going to be like tits on the proverbial bull. And they vote and they get angry and they will not accept a status of being useless and watch while right wing politicians discuss curbing their "entitlements" and curbing their "welfare programs" and imposing martial economic law on their cities and towns.

I agree with you on the health care issue. We are of like mind on that.
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You seem to put the entire burden on American companies, not sure exactly what you would have them do. You mention that there is a subset of the population are going to be angry. They are I agree, again not sure what companies can do about it. They can't hire people for $30 per hour instead of $2 per hour unless the American consumer is willing to pay more for product made here. Americans like to blame companies, politicians etc. Either they have to do the right thing and pay more for American paid product, or admit they won't. If they won't and you still want "free trade" then Americans who have less skills have to be willing to be paid accordingly.

Also although you probably disagree, immigration hurts the bottom of our workforce. It seems crazy to me that we have 15 million un/under employed and allow millions of unskilled workers come and compete. Not only compete but these folks get abused by their employers and oftentimes are willing to work for less than the minimum wage. How anyone can be concerned about the poor in this nation and allow this unfair competition for the few jobs that are available to them.
 
from Washnut

You seem to put the entire burden on American companies, not sure exactly what you would have them do.
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If that is the impression I have given, I am sorry for that. I feel strongly that this is a societal problem and all the major players in society will have to unite together to solve this... not just companies and not just making demands on companies to change without others changing also. When this subject came up before in other threads, Turtle Dude said something very incisive and profound... he said that companies will only hire more workers when they can make money from hiring more workers. That is an excellent observation and 100% true.......... under the present system and under the present rules and under the present imperatives that companies operate under.


You mention that there is a subset of the population are going to be angry. They are I agree, again not sure what companies can do about it.
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They have to change what they value and what value they place upon what they value. I would hope they value doing business in America with the American people for a long long time and want a sustainable nation which can provide them with a worker base and a customer base and profits.

They can't hire people for $30 per hour instead of $2 per hour unless the American consumer is willing to pay more for product made here. Americans like to blame companies, politicians etc. Either they have to do the right thing and pay more for American paid product, or admit they won't.
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I agree. Lets do that and do it now.

If they won't and you still want "free trade" then Americans who have less skills have to be willing to be paid accordingly.
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Sorry, but I do not want free trade. Fair trade - possibly. And I want the government to exercise its Constitutional powers given to it by the Founding Fathers in this regard.

Also although you probably disagree, immigration hurts the bottom of our workforce. It seems crazy to me that we have 15 million un/under employed and allow millions of unskilled workers come and compete. Not only compete but these folks get abused by their employers and oftentimes are willing to work for less than the minimum wage.
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I would not completely disagree or completely agree. Immigration does hurt some of our workforce. Immigration does provide a necessary workforce for labor that American business will not pay American wages to.

In my job with the Michigan state legislature, we recently looked at proposed legislation to cut down on migrants jobs in the state. They wanted to mandate contractors on state jobs to use the EVerify system and had a penalty of from $100 to $1,000.00 for a violation. Of course, a behind the scenes deal was made between its right wing sponsor and the Farm Bureau to exempt all agricultural jobs and then side deals made with the tourist businesses to exempt such jobs as hotel maids, cooks, waitresses and others. At the second committee hearing, the rep I work for proposed that we allow NO exemptions of any kind. He proposed that the law apply to ALL immigrants wanting to work in our state. He proposed a fine of $1,000 per day per worker who was not either a documented legal immigrant or one who had legal papers to work. He further added a criminal penalty for anyone who knowingly hired illegal workers.

Do I have to tell you what the Republicans did next?
 
washunut said:
There is a major problem with your comment about a company's obligations. That is when you look at global companies, many have most of their revenues and employees in countires outside the U.S. Why do you feel that such companies owe more loyalty to workers in the U.S. than workers elsewhere.

When I say we are largely uncompetitive here in the U.S. for many jobs one of the things that could help that would be a single payer health care system. Companies that provide HC in the U.S. pay more for just that benefit than workers get as total comp in Asia.
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Who do you think is going to pay for the single payer healthcare system?
 
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