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Poll: Debt ceiling deal should include cuts and tax increases

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sangha said:
The govt doesn't need to solve the problem.

It may be a useful thing to do, but it is not a necessary thing to do
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Oh, now the government doesn't need to get involved. :lamo
 
upsideguy said:
...and the majority of Americans support tax increases,, while curiously, not a single proposed cut has majority support.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/07/21/rel11b.pdf

Therefore, if you wish to argue that polls should dictate policy, then you also are in favor of raising taxes and not cutting any major expenditure line-items.
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Any poll, that say's most American support higher taxes, is as rigged as the day is long.
 
sangha said:
But the execs at Lehman (and Goldman Sachs, and AIG, etc) made off with millions while losing billions and in some cases, bringing their corps down. Kind of contradicts your claim about how the wealthy made their money by building their employers business up

And the Kock bros. depended on inheritance and govt largesse to make their money. Again, not an example of adding value. More like stealing from the people
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Try reading for once. It won't make you look so silly and desparate.

I said the Kochs increased their wealth hundreds of times over by the work the put into their company.
 
sangha said:
Nice straw man. I guess that either you just can't understand that Koch makes money from govt handouts, or you think welfare queens earn their govt handouts
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You are the straw man builder. Selling product to the government is not welfare nor is it a handout. You are being silly.
 
sangha said:
They are welfare queens, dependent on govt handouts, including the Stalinist govt of the USSR.

YOu have said that socialism is wrong, but now you seem to think it's OK
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As I said, and virtually everyone would agee, that selling products to the government is not handouts. As to selling to Stalin, let's assume this were true. Charles Koch did not sell to Stalin. Are you saying that the "sins" of the father fall to the sons? If that is your belief, are the children of Ted Kennedy killers of women?
 
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sangha said:
Gee, first you denied that they made money off the govt. Now that I pwned you by providing proof you say "it is much ado about nothing".
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I don't believe that I ever denied that Koch made money off the government. Could you show where I did? You own nothing, but silliness.
 
Gill said:
Try reading for once. It won't make you look so silly and desparate.

I said the Kochs increased their wealth hundreds of times over by the work the put into their company.
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And I suggest you do the same. I've been saying, and providing documentation for, that the Kochs' are the recipients of govt handouts. Receiving a check from the govt is not work. Receiving an inheritance is not work
 
sangha said:
The govt doesn't have to buy oil for the strategic reserve,
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This may be true, but if it were true, it would be yet another problem with the Federal Government and not Koch Industries.
 
LesGovt said:
You are the straw man builder. Selling product to the government is not welfare nor is it a handout. You are being silly.
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Sure it is. In addition, you have ignored the other proof I have posted about their recieving govt handouts. Even if you don't think doing business with the govt (at inflated prices) is an example of govt handouts, using govt land at below market price is. Taking natural resources off govt land at below market prices (for pennies on the dollar) is. Receiving subsidies (which even Koch Industries admits it does) is.
 
sangha said:
I guess you think that helping Stalin was not immoral.

And the point is that the Kochs money is made with govt handouts
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You should actually learn more about what you are talking about before you start spouting nonsense........

Temporarily forced out of business in the United States, they turned to other markets, including the Soviet Union, where Winkler-Koch built 15 cracking units between 1929 and 1932. During this time, Koch came to despise communism and Joseph Stalin's regime. In his 1960 book, A Business Man Looks at Communism, Koch wrote that he found the USSR to be "a land of hunger, misery, and terror." According to Charles G. Koch, "Virtually every engineer he worked with [there] was purged."
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Koch Industries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With every post you make, you look more absurd.
 
LesGovt said:
As I said, and virtually everyone would agee, that selling products to the government is not handouts. As to selling to Stalin, let's assume this were true. Charles Koch did not seel to Stalin. Are you saying that the "sins" of the father fall to the sons? If that is your belief, are the children of Ted Kennedy killers of women?
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I have posted many examples of the Kochs receiving govt handouts. You can only argue about one. Obviously, even you can't refute the other examples, so just as obviously, my claim is true

WRT the fathers activities, that's where the Koch bros got their money to start with; from their father. Receiving an inheritance is not work.

This is the 2nd instance, in just a short time, where you have misconstrued my argument. First, you argued as if I was saying they made money by committing crimes (which actually is true, but I wasn't making that point) when my point was that they hadn't earned the money, they just received govt handouts. Now, you're acting as if I had said "the sins of the father fall to the sons". Again, I was just making the point that they receive govt handouts.

Will you ever address the point I am actually making, or will you continue to put up straw men?
 
sangha said:
And I suggest you do the same. I've been saying, and providing documentation for, that the Kochs' are the recipients of govt handouts. Receiving a check from the govt is not work. Receiving an inheritance is not work
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So every company that provides goods and services to the government is receiving a handout ?????????? :roll:

Please come and say that to the many contractors I work with that are working in the hot sun on federal government contracts. They would love to have a private meeting with you to discuss your accusations.
 
LesGovt said:
I don't believe that I ever denied that Koch made money off the government. Could you show where I did? You own nothing, but silliness.
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No, what you did was misconstrue my argument, more than once, that the govt received govt handouts into accusations of illegality, and a claim that the sins of the father should be visited on their sons. All along, you've been disagreeing with me, and now, you're acting as if its' OK that they made money from their handouts, and not earning the money
 
sangha said:
Sure it is. In addition, you have ignored the other proof I have posted about their recieving govt handouts. Even if you don't think doing business with the govt (at inflated prices) is an example of govt handouts, using govt land at below market price is. Taking natural resources off govt land at below market prices (for pennies on the dollar) is. Receiving subsidies (which even Koch Industries admits it does) is.
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As I have said previously, if there is any fault to be assessed by any of these activities, it is the fault of the government and not Koch Industries. I am surprised that a big government person, such as yourself, would want to blame the government so much.
 
LesGovt said:
This may be true, but if it were true, it would be yet another problem with the Federal Government and not Koch Industries.
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And again, you misconstrue the argument in order to disagree. Regardless of whose fault it is, the fact remains that their wealth is the result of govt handouts, and not their hard work

That makes three times. Will you ever address the point I'm actually making, or will you continue with the straw men?
 
Gill said:
You should actually learn more about what you are talking about before you start spouting nonsense........



Koch Industries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With every post you make, you look more absurd.
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Did you read what you just posted? It explains how their daddy made money, which the sons later inherited. This just bolsters my point because they didn't work for the money they received from the father; they inherited it.
 
Gill said:
So every company that provides goods and services to the government is receiving a handout ?????????? :roll:

Please come and say that to the many contractors I work with that are working in the hot sun on federal government contracts. They would love to have a private meeting with you to discuss your accusations.
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Yes, when the govt buys stuff, the are distorting the market by increasing demand for that product, which increases the price for that product. The seller makes more money on what it sells to the govt *and* receives more money for the same product when it sell to buyers other than the govt. It's basically a price support mechanism, not a free market one.
 
sangha said:
Did you read what you just posted? It explains how their daddy made money, which the sons later inherited. This just bolsters my point because they didn't work for the money they received from the father; they inherited it.
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Stawman....... post a link of anyone denying they inherited the original small company from their father.

That was not the point of my post and you know it. You claimed that Koch was somehow in bed with Stalin. In actuality, as I've proven, he hated him.

Your concession is noted.
 
LesGovt said:
As I have said previously, if there is any fault to be assessed by any of these activities, it is the fault of the government and not Koch Industries. I am surprised that a big government person, such as yourself, would want to blame the government so much.
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It takes two to make a business transaction. And as I said before, you are once again creating a straw man. It doesn't matter who is at fault. It still shows that the Kochs are the recipients of govt largesse.

And now, you have added another straw man that I support all govt activities. That makes five straw men
 
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