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Arizona SWAT Team Defends Shooting Iraq Vet 60 Times

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BDBoop

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Tucson SWAT Team Defends Shooting Iraq Marine Veteran 60 Times - ABC News

By ELLEN TUMPOSKY
May 20, 2011
A Tucson, Ariz., SWAT team defends shooting an Iraq War veteran 60 times during a drug raid, although it declines to say whether it found any drugs in the house and has had to retract its claim that the veteran shot first.

And the Pima County sheriff, whose team conducted the raid, scolded the media for "questioning the legality" of the shooting.

Jose Guerena, 26, died the morning of May 5. He was asleep in his Tucson home after working a night shift at the Asarco copper mine when his wife, Vanessa, saw the armed SWAT team outside her youngest son's bedroom window.

"She saw a man pointing at her with a gun," said Reyna Ortiz, 29, a relative who is caring for Vanessa and her children. Ortiz said Vanessa Guerena yelled, "Don't shoot! I have a baby!"
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They wouldn't let the medics inside, and he died.

Tragic.
 
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The fact that he was a veteran doesn't mean anything - at all - in this unfortunate situation. When I read that (in this and other stories) I feel as if it's an emotional ploy to get more attention or sympathy.

What's happened, here, is a situation that could easily happen to anyone whenever they are armed and in this situation - it's ****ty but what should have been done differently? *shrug* I can see how this played out from all points of view - even the lie that was told to try to cover things up. so I guess I can't choose a side or emotional pedistal. It's just sad.
 
Yeah, I did a search first, and the name didn't come up. I've asked the mods to meld the threads (for future reference).
 
Well "why did you shoot him" isn't so much what should be asked - he was holding a firearm. . . looking just at *that exchange* - it's not actually hard to imagine just *what* went on to lead to his killing.

What SHOULD be asked and investigated is 'WHY did you believe we were drug dealers' and 'why did you invade OUR home?'

From the sound of it - they shouldn't have even BEEN there in their home to begin with. . . but yet the focus is going to be on the tragedy of the situation - not the overal ridiculousness that the situatous even began to happen in the first place.

Sounds to me like they conducted this entire operation without ANY evidence and without a remote notion of what they were *actually* doing - when you hear of drug raids going on you really hope that they've *done their homework* first and are targeting *actual known and feloneous dealers* who are better off dead via this means than on the street.

There's more to it than his death - and I think the department is actually relieved to see everyone's focused on the exchange and his death than the fact that they shouldn't have ben there *at all* to begin with.
 
Shooting the guy 60 times certainly seems to be overdoing it a bit, even if he was armed. And they were definitely wrong not to let paramedics in to treat the guy until an hour later.

It's a shame to see the sheriff's department trying to cover their asses and make sure they don't come out looking bad rather than investigating how this could have happened and how to make sure it never happens again.
 
I'm reading on recent threads how grateful everyone is for a veteran's service and how heroic all of them are, but they can still be shot like dogs, in their own beds.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
From the sound of it - they shouldn't have even BEEN there in their home to begin with. . . but yet the focus is going to be on the tragedy of the situation - not the overal ridiculousness that the situatous even began to happen in the first place.
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Indeed. The whole thing could have been avoided if the courts required the police to actually serve the warrant before using force. They knock on the door, he puts down the rifle, and they have a nice little chat like civilized human beings about the whole misunderstanding. Presumably they have to search his house anyway because of the warrant, and presumably he's not stupid enough to resist what he now recognizes as police officers.
 
^ This.

I never understood the smash and grab approach of SWAT. Of course if someone's door is being busted down abruptly they are more likely to go on the defensive. 60 times though? That's overkill (no pun intended).

Does it even need to be said? This wouldn't happen if the war on drugs were a thing of the past. We wouldn't have SWAT teams breaking into people's homes and getting into gun fights over plant-based substances.
 
Temporal said:
60 times though? That's overkill (no pun intended).
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When police shoot, they shoot until you fall down. Figure there's at least four cops, armed either with assault rifles or submachine guns. Eighteen rounds each. You're talking about two or three seconds. Center mass, small caliber, he would have stayed on his feet until his brain shut off. He was dead before he hit the floor.

Temporal said:
Does it even need to be said? This wouldn't happen if the war on drugs were a thing of the past. We wouldn't have SWAT teams breaking into people's homes and getting into gun fights over plant-based substances.
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Sarin gas is a plant-based substance.
 
Anyone notice how these are always the result of drug investigations?????
 
BDBoop said:
Tucson SWAT Team Defends Shooting Iraq Marine Veteran 60 Times - ABC News



They wouldn't let the medics inside, and he died.

Tragic.
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You know what I find interesting while reading the article.
This
Double homicide: Manuel Francisco Orozco, 36; and wife Cynthia Orozco, 34 - Rynski's Day of the Dead
That they linked to about the Wife's Family.

Home invations like that RARELY happen to folks outside of the drug trade.
Ive worked several home invations, and I've never worked one that wasn't centered around drug trade.
 
Police are claiming they found icons to Jesus Malverde in the home. It's not exactly a smoking gun, but there's absolutely no other reason to have that icon in your home, assuming that the police are not as mistaken about that as they were about Mr. Guerena firing his weapon.
 
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Yeah - I'm outright surprised that the use of SWAT doesn't necessitate more dire circumstances. I thought they were only called on for hostage situations and things of that extreme nature - not just to possibly arrest a drug dealer . . . and this guy wasn't actually *ever* a drug dealer - so a short investigation would have made that known and he would still be here completely unscathed.
 
After having read the linked story, I'd say this is more than just tragic. It was law enforcement reckless negligence that bordered on criminal. I hope a thorough investigation... an objective one... is conducted. :(
 
Viktyr Korimir said:
Sarin gas is a plant-based substance.
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People use it to get high/altered?

If they are mass producing a toxic substance, then that has terrorism potential and that falls under the purview of the FBI or even CIA.

As you can see in the chart below, the most common plant-based psychoactives have both low dependence and low overdose potentials.

Drug_danger_and_dependence.png


If you want to compare something like sarin gas to common drugs, then at least make sure the comparison is adpt.

And in this case, we were not dealing with a drug lab, but simple possession. There is no need for anyone to be dying over that. The ability of SWAT to execute people is too unrestricted for my taste.
 
You realize that almost everything on that chart is plant-based, right? Heroin comes from poppies.
 
Caine said:
Anyone notice how these are always the result of drug investigations?????
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Yep. The SWAT teams are worried that people will flush the evidence down the toilet if they make their presence known, instead of busting in like a home invader. In our government's mind, some dead families are a small price worth paying to stop the horror of someone smoking pot.
 
Kandahar said:
Yep. The SWAT teams are worried that people will flush the evidence down the toilet if they make their presence known, instead of busting in like a home invader. In our government's mind, some dead families are a small price worth paying to stop the horror of someone smoking pot.
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Listen, I don't agree with what happened here either.

But, don't change the facts of the case in order to express your melodramatic reaction.

"smoking pot" and "trafficking pot" are two different things.
 
Caine said:
Listen, I don't agree with what happened here either.

But, don't change the facts of the case in order to express your melodramatic reaction.

"smoking pot" and "trafficking pot" are two different things.
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Not really. They're still doing it because they don't want people to smoke pot. The only difference is WHO they're trying to stop (i.e. the perpetrator or the perpetrator's customers). But they're morally pretty much the same. If the government would end its irrational obsession with people smoking pot, stories like this could be avoided entirely.
 
Kandahar said:
Not really. They're still doing it because they don't want people to smoke pot. The only difference is WHO they're trying to stop (i.e. the perpetrator or the perpetrator's customers). But they're morally pretty much the same. If the government would end its irrational obsession with people smoking pot, stories like this could be avoided entirely.
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I agree.
However, when you change the facts to make it look like they were after the guy for having a joint, its HIGHLY dishonest of you.
 
Caine said:
I agree.
However, when you change the facts to make it look like they were after the guy for having a joint, its HIGHLY dishonest of you.
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I didn't say that at all. I said:
In our government's mind, some dead families are a small price worth paying to stop the horror of someone smoking pot.
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That doesn't necessarily refer to the people who they shot.
 
Caine said:
Anyone notice how these are always the result of drug investigations?????
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Yeah, funny, that. So many **** ups and innocents killed, you’d almost think that these are ill-advised laws being over-zealously enforced by local police stations eager to confiscate property from the accused. Someone should look into that.
 
Befuddled_Stoner said:
Yeah, funny, that. So many **** ups and innocents killed, you’d almost think that these are ill-advised laws being over-zealously enforced by local police stations eager to confiscate property from the accused. Someone should look into that.
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Think what you want......
Ive never noticed an eager-ness to enforce laws just for the purpose of confiscating property in my 5 years in law enforcement. And ive even seized stuff.

But, meh, Im sure you have some sort of factual and articulate basis to form your opinion as to the mental state, motivation, and purpose of these departments/officers enforcing these laws.

Surely you wouldn't just be speculating out of general disdain for law enforcement in general. People don't do that....:roll:
 
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