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Court: No right to resist illegal cop entry into home

Viktyr Korimir said:
Do not fight cops in the street. You will never, ever win and even if they're wrong you'll be lucky if they even pay your hospital bills. The only weapon you can beat a cop with is a lawyer.
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If all those TV series are to be believed, a friendly FBI agent will work just as well.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
I've never heard of a situatoin in which a person posed as an officer and forced their way into someone's home (this is his argument, there) - it's unrealistic and farfetched to center a hefty argument around such a bizarre and odd situation.

Lets stay rooted in reality - things taht will actually happen if such things occur.

What's wrong with someone taking acop to court? A cop who violates the law like that can face getting booted out of the force - at least.
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Police searching for gang of home invaders posing as police - Criminal Defense Lawyer Blog

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/crime_tracker&id=8043089

Men posing as police stage home invasion in Pawtucket - Projo 7 to 7 News Blog | Rhode Island news | The Providence Journal

Police: Home Invaders Posing As Cops Captured - News Story - WSB Atlanta

Police: Suspects in Missouri City home invasion posed as officers | khou.com Houston\

That was a 2 minute Google search. It happens far more often than most people realize.
 
it seems apropos to put this here, as it touches on a number of subjects discussed:

...The search warrant and court documents showing what deputies were looking for and seized from Guerena's home have been sealed by a judge and are unavailable to the public.

Christopher Scileppi, who is representing the Guerena family, said nothing seized from Guerena's home was illegal and that Storie's statements were unsupported by facts and meant to discredit Guerena's character. Scileppi did not comment on the details of the case...

On Thursday afternoon, the Sheriff's Department declined to comment on what the attorneys said.

All statements made by Storie on Thursday morning came from the five SWAT officers he is representing, he said.

The five officers had "no choice but to shoot" when they breached the front door of the house in the 7100 block of South Redwater Drive and saw Guerena holding a rifle, Storie said. The home is on the southwest side, near South Wade and West Los Reales roads....

Guerena's wife, Vanessa, who was inside the house with their 4-year-old son, has said she did not see or hear lights and sirens and that Guerena thought they were being targeted for a home invasion, which is why her husband grabbed his AR-15 rifle and told her and their son to hide in a closet.

The raid took place about 9:30 a.m., and Guerena, 26, was asleep after working the graveyard shift at Asarco Mission Mine, Guerena's wife said.

Storie said that once the SWAT team parked outside the home, the lights and sirens were turned off. An officer banged on the door for about 45 seconds while identifying the team as police, he said.

After that, five SWAT members broke in the front door and saw Guerena holding a rifle at the end of a long hallway....

The SWAT officers fired 71 shots, striking Guerena 60 times.

The search warrant was not directed at any particular person, and Guerena's name was not mentioned, but it was targeting whoever might be inside the residence, Storie said...
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so, if they come in and see you with a weapon, you're dead. they will yell "police", but anyone can yell the word "police"

how did this guy know that anyone can yell the word police?

well, reading on:

...The man shot and killed by Pima County SWAT officers was linked to a home-invasion crew, the attorney representing the officers said Thursday.

Attorney Michael Storie said authorities found rifles, handguns, body armor and a portion of a law-enforcement uniform inside the house where Jose Guerena was shot by officers serving a search warrant May 5...

The house was targeted as part of an investigation into home invasions and drug rip-offs. The Guerena house was among homes that "were identified as locations where these activities were being carried out from."..

According to Storie, several days before the shooting undercover officers in an unmarked car drove by Guerena's home to do surveillance, and 10 minutes after they drove by, they were alerted that their license plate had been run through the Motor Vehicle Division by someone they say followed the unmarked vehicle from Guerena's home. That was considered countersurveillance on law enforcement, Storie said...
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so, he knew that people claiming to be police could burst into your house as part of a home invasion..... because he either did so himself or was connected to folks that did.


and if the woman had been home alone with her child, assumed the same, and threw her child under the bed grabbing the same weapon to try to desperately defend her kids' life?

she would have 60 holes in her too.
 
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So let me get this straight

Take 1

1. Thug enters my apartment
2. I grab shot gun and shoot him
3. My dog attacks him
4. Call lawyer after I get annoyed with all the screaming
5. Government thugs do something useful for once and take said thug away
6. Lawyer takes care of the rest

Event 2

1. Government thug enters my home (doesnt identify self just barges in)
2. Dog attacks
3. While government thug is attempting to fight over dog, I unload shotgun shell into him
4. Government thug #2 comes in identifies self as government thug.
5. Get arrested by government thug #2 and charged with attempted murder
6. All my belongings are seized, possibly the building as well
7. God only knows what happens afterward


Makes perfect sense (rolls eyes), this is what authoritarianism looks like
 
Kernel Sanders said:
I don't see how the alternative would be feasible. "Unlawful entry" is something that has to be decided by the courts, not a civilian on the spot. If you think the police are acting improperly you have to seek remedy through the courts, not by assaulting a police officer. I just don't see how it can work otherwise, every asshole who wants to resist arrest could just claim he thought the cops were acting unlawfully.
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Bull****.

If a cop is abusing his authority in illegally forcing his way into your home, he has no legal protections and the homeowner has ever right to shoot his ass. The cop is, after all, armed with a gun.

If the Mayor ever gets on a jury in which a citizen defended himself against a thug cop, the citizen won't be found guilty.
 
Interesting topic.

I can’t envision a scenario where the determination of what is or isn’t legal can be left to the home owner/occupant without some serious repercussions. However, I think issues like this could be more reasonably resolved if police immunity to prosecution was scaled back.
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
Bull****.

If a cop is abusing his authority in illegally forcing his way into your home, he has no legal protections and the homeowner has ever right to shoot his ass. The cop is, after all, armed with a gun.

If the Mayor ever gets on a jury in which a citizen defended himself against a thug cop, the citizen won't be found guilty.
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That is so very wrong my friend. You don't determine if a cop is abusing his authority. That's not your job and you are not entitled to do that. You have absolutely no right to shoot his ass. If he identifies himself as a police officer, then you need to comply with his instructions. You are 100% allowed to ask for a badge, and even a photo ID. I actually had someone who wanted to call my field office to verify who I am. I sat in the house with the person I was bringing in while they went on google to find my field office phone number for herself and called in (most law enforcement won't do that unfortunately, in this case it was a nonviolent, paranoid POI) Stop with all the government thug bull. You have no right to shoot a cop or determine if what he's doing has probable cause/not probable cause.
 
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GPS_Flex said:
Interesting topic.

I can’t envision a scenario where the determination of what is or isn’t legal can be left to the home owner/occupant without some serious repercussions. However, I think issues like this could be more reasonably resolved if police immunity to prosecution was scaled back.
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I can't imagine a scenario without serious repercussions in which jackbooted thugs are allowed to break into a citizen's home while the citizen is forbidden to resist.
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
I can't imagine a scenario without serious repercussions in which jackbooted thugs are allowed to break into a citizen's home while the citizen is forbidden to resist.
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I don’t see my local police as “jackbooted thugs” so it is a bit hard to relate to your compelling and scary scenario.
 
Gargantuan said:
That is so very wrong my friend. You don't determine if a cop is abusing his authority.
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That is so not true.

When I have a dickhead playing "lets cut the Mayor off and then go five miles an hour on a narrow road", who then flashes a ****ing badge at the Mayor when the Mayor finally gets the chance to pass the dickhead, that dickhead is abusing his authority. If, as the dickhead had claimed, that he could cut the Mayor off because he was on an urgent call, he needs to explain why he was going so god damned slow.

Thugs with badges outnumber the men who take their police work seriously, and yes, guess what? The Mayor most certainly gets to use the Mayor's own mind to determine if the damn thug with badge is being a dickwad or not.

That's not your job and you are not entitled to do that. You have absolutely no right to shoot his ass.
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Wrong.

There's a reason the Second Amendment exists. It's to ensure the citizen has at his hands a ready defense against those who abuse their authority.

If he identifies himself as a police officer, then you need to comply with his instructions.
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Then if he identifies himself as a cop, he needs to stop breaking the door down, show a freaking badge,....AND show the search warrant. Welcome to America. The Americans don't like it when the cops believe they're not subject to the law.

You are 100% allowed to ask for a badge, and even a photo ID.
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When they're breaking down the door?

"Excuse me Mr. Man, can you put down that battering ram for just one minute while you show the Mayor your badge?"

That works?

When?

How'd that work for the Branch Davidians?



You have no right to shoot a cop or determine if what he's doing has probable cause/not probable cause.
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If a stranger is breaking down the Mayor's door, he has no reason to presume his intentions are either good or lawful. End of story. That is what juries are for, and as the Mayor has stated, the abuse of power by the police is so rampant that the Mayor would NEVER vote to convict a man of the "crime" of defending his home against thuggish cops. That the citizens have guns and can use them to shoot miscreant cops is a significant defense of liberty.
 
GPS_Flex said:
I don’t see my local police as “jackbooted thugs” so it is a bit hard to relate to your compelling and scary scenario.
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You've admitted to being one of them, so needless to say, you're opinion is tainted.

Ask anyone who's had their homes "served" with a warrant and the opinions are different.
 
BmanMcfly said:
Godwin theory came quick in this thread... Now, let's not have any conspiracy theories about police abusing their power.

That doesn't happen in America.
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You forgot your sarcasm tag.

Cops abuse power all the damn time in this country. The situation was made worse with the "civil forfeiture" laws, wherein police agencies can directly profit from their crimes.
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
You've admitted to being one of them, so needless to say, you're opinion is tainted.

Ask anyone who's had their homes "served" with a warrant and the opinions are different.
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I assume you refer to me saying “my local police”?

I have in fact had a warrant served on my home. I rented a room to a friend who did some coke with a cop’s daughter who was underage many years ago and it was a very humiliating experience. I had no idea my friend even did cocaine and they acted like it was me they were after at first so if I had followed the logic of some of the people in this thread, I could have fought back or shot a cop or two only to go to jail or the morgue.

Rather than going to jail or leaving in a body bag, my roommate was arrested because they found coke in his room but I was treated with respect once they realized I was only renting a room to the douche bag. Glad I didn’t decide they had the wrong guy/house when they came rushing through the front and back doors of my home.
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
You forgot your sarcasm tag.

Cops abuse power all the damn time in this country. The situation was made worse with the "civil forfeiture" laws, wherein police agencies can directly profit from their crimes.
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Snorkum, I wish I was being sarcastic... and yes, that post was deliberately absurd, but some of us have been warning that this was going to happen, and have been called a "conspiracy theorist" that I "believed" that this was going to become reality.

In reality though, this is one of those where I'm once again surprised at how much the american people will put up with.

GPS_Flex said:
I assume you refer to me saying “my local police”?

I have in fact had a warrant served on my home. I rented a room to a friend who did some coke with a cop’s daughter who was underage many years ago and it was a very humiliating experience. I had no idea my friend even did cocaine and they acted like it was me they were after at first so if I had followed the logic of some of the people in this thread, I could have fought back or shot a cop or two only to go to jail or the morgue.

Rather than going to jail or leaving in a body bag, my roommate was arrested because they found coke in his room but I was treated with respect once they realized I was only renting a room to the douche bag. Glad I didn’t decide they had the wrong guy/house when they came rushing through the front and back doors of my home.
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Listen, most police officers ARE honorable people out trying to do the best job that they can... these people are not the problem. There IS a minority of officers that are not like that and WILL abuse any and all power they can be given... and they ALSO usually lack the discernment to determine how the crimes they commit will impact the police and society as a whole.
 
Viktyr Korimir said:
Do not fight cops in the street. You will never, ever win and even if they're wrong you'll be lucky if they even pay your hospital bills. The only weapon you can beat a cop with is a lawyer.
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In a case like this you make it very clear verbally the officer does not have the right to search the car. Get as many witnesses as you can so when it comes up in court, you have something on your side.

Of course you do not fight with the cop in the street. Only somebody with something to hide would do that.

I would not want a cop to poke around in my car for fear of a him planting something. I do not carry anything illegal in my car ever and I don't want it put in there by an over zealous cop.

The system is set up for the officer to do what he wants and it is up to you to take out a second and third mortgage on your house to defend yourself from something that should have not happened in the first place, and the officer knows that.
 
MaggieD said:
I completely agree with this reasoning. Ya' don't argue with a copper on the street or at your front door. You argue with him in court.

Resistance is futile.
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Isn't the officer immune to prosecution even civilly while doing his job?
 
Ikari said:
So just accept unlawful abuses by government goons and hope you can work it out from jail later, eh? Nice.
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That is the point. As soon as the officer realizes he made a mistake he will make something up to cover that mistake.

How is the homeowner to know he did that to cover his ass?
 
Something you won't hear in the future "do you have a warrant".
 
Mason66 said:
Isn't the officer immune to prosecution even civilly while doing his job?
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No, not at all... well, at least not previously.

Cops DO have certain 'benefits' within the legal system, in that the court will GENERALLY take the word of a cop over the word of another... that does NOT mean that cops are immune though.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
This situation you're discussing rarely happens - usually, whne a cop is present at a scene of a disturbance, there's no reason to suspect he hit up the local costume mart and also bought a cop car while he was on his way out.
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The situation he related happens with most search warrant raids. The police don't want any forwarning to allow the suspects to dispose of evidence.

It is rare that they will come to the door and show you the warrant asking permission to enter.
 
Krhazy said:
When an officer doesn't have a warrant, I would think that would be a pretty obvious indicator.

My question is, does this law prevent someone from simply locking the door and not permitting the officer inside?
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After they bust through the front and back doors and they have everybody in handcuffs, then they show you the warrant if they have one. They do not show it at the door.
 
DiAnna said:
If police were to forcibly enter my home without a warrant, I would simply dial 911 and report them on the record. If police suspect that I'm harboring a fugitive, or have pot plants in a bedroom, or a meth lab in my basement, and they don't bother with the warrant, then I'm getting a nice settlement at the end of the day, because anything they find is inadmissable. Without a warrant or legitimate probable cause, police must ask for permission to enter your residence. If they fake it... "Say, did you just hear someone scream?" when the cat meows, for example... my settlement will be even fatter! :lol:

For the most part, police do not deliberately conduct themselves in a manner that will get them sued or result in the case being thrown out of court. The problems occur when mistakes happen... SWAT simultaneously yells "Police! Search Warrant!" as the battering ram knocks down the door and a gaggle of riot-clad officers rush into the wrong home in the middle of the night. That has led to serious tragedy when the sleeping homeowner, awakened by the door being broken down, grabs a weapon and rushes out of the bedroom. Somebody is going to die, and it's not likely to be one of the police officers.
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How do you prove, as the home owner, that he didn't hear a scream, even though you know he is making it up?
 
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