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Angry Mob Chases Would-Be Flag Burner Off LSU Campus

Grant said:
Sure.

Nobody expects much from Muslims but that should not always be the case. Buying into and accepting their seventh century dogmas should not be considered for a moment as it would not advance civilization even a little. We should encourage them to be a part of civilized and open society, not treating them as hysterical adolescents with no sense of proportion.
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i agree completely, yes, WE should be held to a higher standard if we expect to hold ourselves up as the great society. as for muslims, they can practice their religion as they please, until it harms americans. we can't continue to be big brother to the world.
 
tessaesque said:
I know a lot of military men and women and they aren't fighting for the damned flag. When they speak of the ideals or rights they're defending it is almost always a fight to protect our rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They aren't defending a piece of clothe. Further, any muslim who would fight back violently against somebody or some group responsible for burning a Qu'ran would have the same argument you're trying to make. Neither argument is any better than the other, but it is much more damaging, and the consequences are much greater, if we decide to start purposely offending violent people to make a point.
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MOST military people I know would **** on anyone that attempted to desecrate the flag. They arent serving for a piece of cloth...they are serving to protect the things which that flag represents. They may even respect the rights of the individual that felt justified in burning the flag even though MOST people that would commit such an act are spineless spoiled little ****s who have never had to work for, protect, or defend anything in their lives. Its amazing who little something means to you when you have never had to invest anything. That doesnt mean it wouldnt piss MOST military people off.
 
tessaesque said:
I don't get your point. I can say and do what I please, but I'm smart enough to weigh the benefits and consequences first. If I went up to my boss and told him he's a stupid jackass and I hope he dies then I'm not going to have a job tomorrow....so even if I felt that way I'm not going to say it. If there is a problem I need to address I can find a better way to do with which will have less drastic consequences. So yeah, I wouldn't burn the Qu'ran, even though I support somebody's right to do it. I think it'd be a stupid, senseless way to insight violence that we don't need more of.

Having the right to say anything is amazing, and I appreciate that I have it. Having the wisdom to know when to stop saying something is almost as awesome.
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I doubt that a Muslim is your employer and that the welfare of you and your family depends on your right to free speech. I doubt also that your boss would murder you, and many others, if you called him/her a jackass.

What you are doing is withholding speech because of threats to your safety, as well as the threat to others. Anyone in fact. They can be completely unconnected to any perceived insults but they will still be murdered. That's what frightens you, right?

And that is how terrorism works. The indiscriminate killing of innocent people is a horrifying thought, making it easy to meet the demands any group of murderous malcontents might make. As always, we can stand up to terrorism or acquiesce. But giving in to terrorism will not make it go away as they will never be satisfied. I think we can all recognize that.
 
Taunting lunatics is good.

So is fire.

The only thing better than burning stuff is burning stuff to make people crazy.

If I burn stuff, and you go nutz, it's like free fireworks.
 
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Grant said:
I doubt that a Muslim is your employer and that the welfare of you and your family depends on your right to free speech. I doubt also that your boss would murder you, and many others, if you called him/her a jackass.

What you are doing is withholding speech because of threats to your safety, as well as the threat to others. Anyone in fact. They can be completely unconnected to any perceived insults but they will still be murdered. That's what frightens you, right?

And that is how terrorism works. The indiscriminate killing of innocent people is a horrifying thought, making it easy to meet the demands any group of murderous malcontents might make. As always, we can stand up to terrorism or acquiesce. But giving in to terrorism will not make it go away as they will never be satisfied. I think we can all recognize that.
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As far as I'm concerned, if not burning a book is what it takes to prevent some of the extremism from doing harm then I'll not burn the damned book. Free speech doesn't mean we should go around pissing off as many people as possible (though I again argue that you're only offended if you choose to be). I'm sure you don't think "oh wow, that woman is hideous" and then say it out loud to her face, right? And why not? Because it would probably lead to hurt feelings or an altercation, and you're (probably) not a total dick.
 
liblady said:
i agree completely, yes, WE should be held to a higher standard if we expect to hold ourselves up as the great society. as for muslims, they can practice their religion as they please, until it harms americans. we can't continue to be big brother to the world.
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Problem is, its not just Americans who are their victims, It's a serious international problem for everyone.
 
Grant said:
Problem is, its not just Americans who are their victims, It's a serious international problem for everyone.
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All the more reason why we don't burn the damned Qu'ran, dude. We affect more than just a few people who place illogical value on the book.
 
tessaesque said:
As far as I'm concerned, if not burning a book is what it takes to prevent some of the extremism from doing harm then I'll not burn the damned book. Free speech doesn't mean we should go around pissing off as many people as possible (though I again argue that you're only offended if you choose to be). I'm sure you don't think "oh wow, that woman is hideous" and then say it out loud to her face, right? And why not? Because it would probably lead to hurt feelings or an altercation, and you're (probably) not a total dick.
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Your analogies are nowhere near the mark.

If you are interested in discussing free speech, Muslim sensitivities, and their possibly insane responses, then we should stick to that.
 
Tess, I'm not with ya on this one. Taunting lunatics out of their hiding is best for society.
 
Grant said:
Your analogies are nowhere near the mark.

If you are interested in discussing free speech, Muslim sensitivities, and their possibly insane responses, then we should stick to that.
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You're the one who tried to argue that I'm somehow cheapening free speech by trying to avoid insighting violence by choosing not to exercise the right. I was explaining to you, through examples, that it in no way cheapens free speech to know when to keep your mouth shut.
 
ecofarm said:
Tess, I'm not with ya on this one. Taunting lunatics out of their hiding is best for society.
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I respect that. I don't personally think dropping a strawberry on an anthill is the best method for me, personally...but hey, if it works I'll admit it works, ya know?
 
tessaesque said:
All the more reason why we don't burn the damned Qu'ran, dude. We affect more than just a few people who place illogical value on the book.
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But of course it doesn't stop at the Quran, does it?

The cartoons weren't about the Quran and yet riots and murders ensued. Neither 9/11 or 7/7 or the Madrid bombings, the Bali bombings, etc, involved the Quran. The point is they will kill you for whatever reason they choose and you can accept it or not. You choose to accept it, it seems, but that will not save you or your country over the long term.
 
Grant said:
But of course it doesn't stop at the Quran, does it?

The cartoons weren't about the Quran and yet riots and murders ensued. Neither 9/11 or 7/7 or the Madrid bombings, the Bali bombings, etc, involved the Quran. The point is they will kill you for whatever reason they choose and you can accept it or not. You choose to accept it, it seems, but that will not save you or your country over the long term.
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I know a misquito is going to bite me if I hang out in a damp area, too...but I don't have to smear myself with honey to attract them.
 
tessaesque said:
You're the one who tried to argue that I'm somehow cheapening free speech by trying to avoid insighting violence by choosing not to exercise the right. I was explaining to you, through examples, that it in no way cheapens free speech to know when to keep your mouth shut.
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I'm only suggesting that the examples you're using aren't particularly effective. Why not just stick to the subject at hand?
 
I know a lot of military men and women and they aren't fighting for the damned flag. When they speak of the ideals or rights they're defending it is almost always a fight to protect our rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They aren't defending a piece of clothe.
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Yes they are. They are fighting for what that peice of cloth represents. Its obvious you have not fought for this country. Go to Iraq. Go to any military installation in the country. The American flag is treated with respect. The reasons people agree to go to war may vary. Some are just there for a paycheck, some are there because of a sense of duty to their country. Regardless of the reason they are there, most will gain a sense of patriotism and respect for the flag and the values it represents.

Further, any muslim who would fight back violently against somebody or some group responsible for burning a Qu'ran would have the same argument you're trying to make.
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No they most certainly would not. No Muslim who would be ignorant enough to resort to violence over someone burning a book would even begin to understand my point. The muslims who would agree with my point are those who are intelligent. In case seem to be missing my point, it is that it is wrong to burn (or otherwise defile) the flag or Qu'ran. Your point is that it is ok to burn the flag but not the Qu'ran is completely misguided.

Neither argument is any better than the other, but it is much more damaging, and the consequences are much greater, if we decide to start purposely offending violent people to make a point.
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I never said that anyone should purposefully start offending anyone.
 
tessaesque said:
I know a misquito is going to bite me if I hang out in a damp area, too...but I don't have to smear myself with honey to attract them.
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Mosquitoes and honey now, huh?

This is obviously going nowhere.
 
Grant said:
I'm only suggesting that the examples you're using aren't particularly effective. Why not just stick to the subject at hand?
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I'm not having a circular argument with you any more. My initial point still stands. You can't compare the flag to the Qu'ran on the basis of the reaction it generates. One is inherently more risky than the other. Period.
 
Grant said:
Mosquitoes and honey now, huh?

This is obviously going nowhere.
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I'm sorry if you have a hard time understanding comparative arguments, but that simply isn't my problem. Repeating myself doesn't seem to get through your little wall, so using a different method was the next logical course of action. You deciding to attack my style of debating only lends to my assumption that you really don't get or care to understand the issue...so as I said in post 119, I'm done here.
 
tessaesque said:
it in no way cheapens free speech to know when to keep your mouth shut.
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Realistically/pragmatically: correct

Ideologically/philosophically: wrong

Politically: an ant hill
 
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muciti said:
Yes they are. They are fighting for what that peice of cloth represents. Its obvious you have not fought for this country. Go to Iraq. Go to any military installation in the country. The American flag is treated with respect. The reasons people agree to go to war may vary. Some are just there for a paycheck, some are there because of a sense of duty to their country. Regardless of the reason they are there, most will gain a sense of patriotism and respect for the flag and the values it represents.



No they most certainly would not. No Muslim who would be ignorant enough to resort to violence over someone burning a book would even begin to understand my point. The muslims who would agree with my point are those who are intelligent. In case seem to be missing my point, it is that it is wrong to burn (or otherwise defile) the flag or Qu'ran. Your point is that it is ok to burn the flag but not the Qu'ran is completely misguided.



I never said that anyone should purposefully start offending anyone.
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Again, you're not reading what I'm writing. I'm saying that people have the right do whatever they want to the Qu'ran or the flag. I'm saying that the consequences of buring the Qu'ran are likely to be much more severe and much more violent, so using an apples-to-apples comparison of the two is inaccurate and ineffective. I think placing so much value on either item is absolutely pointless. The flag means nothing until people start slewing symbolism on top of it, just like the Qu'ran. But people who will be offended by the flag burning are more likely to throw a bunch, while people offended by the Qu'ran burning are more likely to throw a grenade.
 
danarhea said:
My wife thinks I'm cute. :mrgreen:
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She tells you that so you leave for work with a smile on your face instead of the frown you deserve!
 
tessaesque said:
I'm not saying I like the idea of burning the flag, but based on the permissions granted to douche bag #2, I would have to assume that douche bag #1s arrest was tied to other actions than just the fact that he was burning the flag.
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I didn't agree with the trash throwing.
However, they had every right to use their free speech to trash the would be flag burner.
 
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