Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms

Boo Radley said:

Don't you think in schools across the country we will have people with next to zero training? I grew up in the city and I have know a lot folks with guns with zero training.

And this is the point. We are likley to have people in these situations armed but with no real training, making decisions, likely poor ones.

And no, clarification is not equal to moving the goal posts. If you seek to understand, clarification is sometimes needed. I never meant to suggest they were poor shots. That was never my point.

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We have both concealed AND open carry in my state. A permit is needed for concealed carry, but anyone can open carry, even on to some college campuses. Now, while it could be argued that at least some training is required to carry a concealed weapon, any old schmuck, trained or not can strap on a gun for the world to see. The people that are untrained with firearms hardly ever actually carry them, though they legally could, because they are uncomfortable with the workings of their gun. The vast majority of the untrained gun owners are the ones who bought a gun to protect their home and then stuck it in a closet. They don't carry, so the average non-gun owner probably won't even be impacted by those who are not comfortable enough to carry a firearm.

This brings us to the other type of legal gun owner. It takes a conscious, responsible decision to legally carry a gun. The people who do carry usually do so because they are, to a certain extent, gun enthusiasts. Do you know what gun enthusiasts do? They train... and they shoot. I've never met a carrier who didn't like to discuss laws and practice tactics. We are largely some of the friendliest and most knowledgable people on the topic of guns, and honestly, we're not the ones that the rest of the populace should worry about.

THAT was my point.

theangryamerican said:

We have both concealed AND open carry in my state. A permit is needed for concealed carry, but anyone can open carry, even on to some college campuses. Now, while it could be argued that at least some training is required to carry a concealed weapon, any old schmuck, trained or not can strap on a gun for the world to see. The people that are untrained with firearms hardly ever actually carry them, though they legally could, because they are uncomfortable with the workings of their gun. The vast majority of the untrained gun owners are the ones who bought a gun to protect their home and then stuck it in a closet. They don't carry, so the average non-gun owner probably won't even be impacted by those who are not comfortable enough to carry a firearm.

This brings us to the other type of legal gun owner. It takes a conscious, responsible decision to legally carry a gun. The people who do carry usually do so because they are, to a certain extent, gun enthusiasts. Do you know what gun enthusiasts do? They train... and they shoot. I've never met a carrier who didn't like to discuss laws and practice tactics. We are largely some of the friendliest and most knowledgable people on the topic of guns, and honestly, we're not the ones that the rest of the populace should worry about.

THAT was my point.

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I was talking to an open carry gun owner here last week. He spoke to the training which was minimal. He siad the instructor informed them that 99% would be repsonsible gun owners. 1% would be the problem, and they would be a real problem. He soon came to realize his friend was one of the 1% as he proceded to walk down mainstreet flipping his shot gun around.

I would argue you're expience isn't enough. It only takes a small number to create enough problems for the law to become problematic. One idiot, one poor decision, in a school, and you will see the politics change, the laws change. I spent some years working on an ambulance, and I'm convinced that idiots and guns don't mix.

But, that's a little different from my original point (though part of it). Few in law enforcement believe having guns on campus make us safer. Few believe having a large nuber of citizens with guns make us safer, legal or a right or not. ANd the younger and less experienced the carrier, the more likley (not absolute) there is to be problems.

most of those who whine about this law use the same tired arguments that were advanced in opposition to allowing honest citizens from carrying licensed concealed weapons. All of those arguments are specious and have been proven contrary to empirical data.

I will note (and anticipate the usual 3-4 to claim I am making stuff up) that I have been involved in a shooting where I was the victim of an attempted mugging that was stopped with a near fatal gunshot inflicted upon one of the two assailants. I have also taught CCW courses, and have over 35 years of competitive shooting experience in both handgun and shotgun tournaments and I have trained police officers, federal law enforcement officers and licensed civilians in both shooting and the use of force. I regularly attend advanced level training in these subjects at a facility that is recognized as a national leader in the field and is the paramount entity in the study of what is now called "active shooter" scenarios.

That being said I note the following:

1) most police officers are not all that proficient in firearms use. In Cincinnati, the average police officer shoots less than 200 shots a year. When I was actively competing in both USPSA and NRA action pistol competitions I was shooting over a thousand rounds a week. One of the top firearms trainers in the nation noted that if one were to randomly select 10 civilian shooters taking a CCW course and compare them to 10 randomly selected police officers in both shooting skills and knowledge of when to or not shoot, the civilians would almost always come out ahead

2) some police officers believe that their badge is membership to a special club that civilians should not be allowed entry into That explains most of the "studies" that find that some police oppose laws such as the one in question. However, given that Justice department studies have established that armed civilians are a) less likely to wound an innocent party and b) more likely to hit the "bad guy" in a justifiable use of firearms scenario, police that pretend they are more skilled are simply lying

3) in every state I am familiar with one cannot legally buy a handgun until age 21: and CCW licenses are restricted to those that age or older. Thus, those carrying pistols, even on a college campus are going to be at least a year or so older than many of our infantry dealing with urban combat in the Mid East in situations that involve opponents who are dressed no differently than innocent civilians. and those 18-20 year old soldiers and marines are carrying far more destructive weapons than a revolver or small auto

4) every prediction of doom and gloom uttered by the Brady clowns and others during the pendency of carry legislation in the many states have come to be proven false. Yet the same nonsense continues to be trotted out by those who oppose people having the right and ability to defend themselves. At one time, speculation was all that was available-now the empirical evidence has conclusively destroyed the anti argument

5) having studied the VA tech shooting, there is no doubt that if one or two of the students who were in a room that the active shooter tried to enter (I believe this is where a professor was killed trying to keep the murderer from entering the room) was armed the killer could have been quickly killed. Instead, he was able to methodically murder dozens because no one was armed

Boo Radley said:

I was talking to an open carry gun owner here last week. He spoke to the training which was minimal. He siad the instructor informed them that 99% would be repsonsible gun owners. 1% would be the problem, and they would be a real problem. He soon came to realize his friend was one of the 1% as he proceded to walk down mainstreet flipping his shot gun around.

I would argue you're expience isn't enough. It only takes a small number to create enough problems for the law to become problematic. One idiot, one poor decision, in a school, and you will see the politics change, the laws change. I spent some years working on an ambulance, and I'm convinced that idiots and guns don't mix.

But, that's a little different from my original point (though part of it). Few in law enforcement believe having guns on campus make us safer. Few believe having a large nuber of citizens with guns make us safer, legal or a right or not. ANd the younger and less experienced the carrier, the more likley (not absolute) there is to be problems.

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I disagree with your conclusions. Large number of armed citizens makes us safer than in areas where the only people armed are criminals and cops.

hazlnut said:

Yeah, this with guns would be totally awesome...

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That with cars would be awesome as well...yet I don't see you saying we shouldn't have cars on campus. :roll:

That with knives would be awesome as well...yet I don't see you saying we shouldn't have knives on campus. ::doh

That with equally partaking women would be awesome as well...yet I don't see you saying we shouldn't have coed campuses :roll:

Hazlnuts post....:doh

Zyphlin said:

That with cars would be awesome as well...yet I don't see you saying we shouldn't have cars on campus. :roll:

That with knives would be awesome as well...yet I don't see you saying we shouldn't have knives on campus. ::doh

That with equally partaking women would be awesome as well...yet I don't see you saying we shouldn't have coed campuses :roll:

Hazlnuts post....:doh

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hazlnut appealing to hyperbolic hysterical emotobabbling arguments?

say its not so!!

hazlnut said:

Sure, sure... the right to heavy drinking and shooting.

Nothing like a loaded deadly weapon in the hands of someone with no inhibitions...

The football games are going to be a hoot. Especially the post-game parking lot...

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By loaded deadly weapon you mean a car with gas in the tank right? Because way more people are killed by drunk drivers than guns each year.

Boo Radley said:

BY all means, link such data. I would love to examime it.

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I don't think you would. Look it up. Colorado Universities are one of them (except Boulder I think). Look up our gun crime statistics and compare it to the gun crime statistics of the Universities in the same city/area. Let me know what you find.

Boo Radley said:

it is meaningless in this dicussion. More people drive, so this means there will be more accidents. Also, there is a greater need. We accept risks with need. As once there was a real need for weapons. We lived with the risk. In the classroom, there is no such need.

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The ability to defend life, liberty, and property is well more meaningful and necessary than getting to the store quicker.

Boo Radley said:

I would hope we'd go with 21, but 18 is worse. The point is, the less developed, the more likley to make reasoing errors, such to less than sound thinking. We see this is young people regularly.

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18 is adult and the time in which you get your nose out of other people's business. People are allowed to make their own decisions and make their own actions, for better or for worse. Sorry man, that's the way of it in a free country.

Boo Radley said:

I look at Colorado once during our discussions. It's too limited, too removed. As I said, and I think you understand, it is too small a smaple. But what appeal to authority have I used? I have tried using reasoing.

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You keep saying "police think" blah. Police can think anything they want, but they don't get to set the rules. Of course they don't want people having guns, that's people who can defend themselves, who are less reliant on them, and perhaps someone that may offer them a threat (sometimes deservedly so). Colorado is one place, but it is REAL NUMBERS. You haven't offered real anything. Until you do, you're point is moot because you have not a single measurement to back it up. Show me the data. You want to restrict the rights of the individual, you got to prove the case. It ain't the other way around, not in this Republic.

Conservative arguments on this point seem to assume that everyone will bring a gun if it is permitted. Therefore, the increased risk that a psycho could use a gun in school is counter-balanced by the greater ability of others to take him down if he does. But how many people are actually going to bring guns to school once it is allowed? I have enough trouble just getting my computer and books to class, let alone a loaded weapon.

In reality, I feel the only purpose this law serves is to make it more difficult to stop a psycho before he starts blowing people's heads off, because he won't be able to be questioned or stopped until he has already started.

Krhazy said:

Conservative arguments on this point seem to assume that everyone will bring a gun if it is permitted. Therefore, the increased risk that a psycho could use a gun in school is counter-balanced by the greater ability of others to take him down if he does. But how many people are actually going to bring guns to school once it is allowed? I have enough trouble just getting my computer and books to class, let alone a loaded weapon.

In reality, I feel the only thing that will happen is that it will be make it more difficult to stop a psycho before he starts blowing people's heads off, because he won't be able to be questioned or stopped until he has already started.

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The reality of the situation is actually allowing concealed carry on campus is a non-effect. You will not statistically see any increase or decrease in crime nor would you often find that one could stop the campus killer before he kills a lot of folk. People hell bent on killing a bunch of folk are most likely going to find the means by which to do so. At the same time, to keep and bear arms is a right and I'll allow anyone wishing to exercise the right just that. I think it's proper and dutiful to own weapons, to be proficient in them, to carry them on your person. Not everyone will...in fact on a college campus the vast majority won't. Which is why it's a non-issue. But it's still a good thing to do.

I am Goshin, I am an ex-cop, and I approve of this law. :mrgreen:

Krhazy said:

Conservative arguments on this point seem to assume that everyone will bring a gun if it is permitted. Therefore, the increased risk that a psycho could use a gun in school is counter-balanced by the greater ability of others to take him down if he does. But how many people are actually going to bring guns to school once it is allowed? I have enough trouble just getting my computer and books to class, let alone a loaded weapon.

In reality, I feel the only purpose this law serves is to make it more difficult to stop a psycho before he starts blowing people's heads off, because he won't be able to be questioned or stopped until he has already started.

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that has absolutely no logical merit.

most laws require the gun to be concealed. and if some guy is not a student and is carrying a gun openly I guarantee the amount of attention the guy will get will be astronomical

theangryamerican said:

Bravo for one less "Defenseless Victim Zone" in this country.

Texas Senate approves guns in college classrooms - CBS News

Edit: The nigh hysterical comments on the article are pure gold... "OMG, BLOOD in the streets!!"

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"They will swim in their own blood." :lamo

TurtleDude said:

that has absolutely no logical merit.

most laws require the gun to be concealed. and if some guy is not a student and is carrying a gun openly I guarantee the amount of attention the guy will get will be astronomical

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You don't want quality time with the campus police; they are usually nuts.

American said:

You don't want quality time with the campus police; they are usually nuts.

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And all the people said: Amen.

American said:

"They will swim in their own blood." :lamo

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That's what they said about shall-issue-CCW. Didn't happen.

Said the same about allowing people to carry in bars in some states. Hasn't happened.

Said the same about the "Make my Day" law in Florida (extending Castle Law to almost everywhere).... no bloodbath.

:lamo

American said:

You don't want quality time with the campus police; they are usually nuts.

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when I was in college they were good guys. I remember one day, two of my suitemates (we had two bedrooms, one living room-four guys as freshman) were smoking some dope while me and the other non-doper were tossing down a few "Tuborg Golds" while playing some Led ZEp at unsafe volumes. We get a knock on the door and its the campus cops. The Sgt holds his nose and said-DO YOU BOYS HAVE ANY UNREGISTERED SPACE HEATERS OR STOVES. no sir I said. the other cop said CARRY ON BOYS and left. Campus cops were generally pretty cool and did a good job since it was considered a plumb job. The New Haven cops weren't bad, most of them were the cousins or brothers or dads of the local guys who were football players-Yale tended to get the cream of the crop of the local football talent and like the cops many were of Italian extraction.

digsbe said:

I approve of allowing guns on college campuses and in class rooms. As a college student I would feel safer with armed peers versus unarmed peers and armed maniacs.

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That will really make the frat parties interesting. Nothing like mixing booze, ecstasy, pot, LSD, shrooms and guns.

Goshin said:

That's what they said about shall-issue-CCW. Didn't happen.

Said the same about allowing people to carry in bars in some states. Hasn't happened.

Said the same about the "Make my Day" law in Florida (extending Castle Law to almost everywhere).... no bloodbath.

:lamo

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when the first couple states decided to change their laws and have SHALL ISSUE laws, Sawah Bwady and the rest of her hand wringing ninnies crapped themselves constantly over the new laws howling about blood in the streets. At first I suppose someone could excuse that crap because there was no real empirical data. but then when state after state passed such laws these twits kept the same nonsense up and by the time Ohio passed its law over RINO Boob Taft's Veto, the anti gun nutjobs were flat out lying. That the news media never hammered the ninnies was proof enough of how biased big news in big cities is.

The same thing happened when the moronic clinton "assault weapon ban" died from sunset--Brady Sugarman and other such scum got plenty of air time about OK Corral shootouts--of course when those claims proved as dishonest as the CCW rants, the gun haters lies were not given any thrashings by the Katie Courics of the world

Removable Mind said:

That will really make the frat parties interesting. Nothing like mixing booze, ecstasy, pot, LSD, shrooms and guns.

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yeah people who don't obey laws against controlled substances are well known for being strict followers of gun laws

TurtleDude said:

yeah people who don't obey laws against controlled substances are well known for being strict followers of gun laws

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Okay...just booze and guns...how's that?

Removable Mind said:

Okay...just booze and guns...how's that?

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Most college students are underage for drinking.


It is not the American way, to take away the rights of the law-abiding majority because of some who are breaking the law.

Ban booze on campus.... oh that's right, it is mostly banned already.... okay ENFORCE it then. Hahahahahahaha.... most colleges don't want to, they're afraid enrollments would decline. :roll: Guess we know who really cares about their students.... 'cuz booze is what college is ABOUT, right? :roll:

Boo Radley said:

Are you sure?

Who else is opposed to CCW? Cook County Board President Toni Preckwinkle; Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart; Cook County State's Attorney Anita Alvarez; Chicago Police Department; Police Superintendent Terry Hilliard; Orland Park Chief of Police Tim McCarthy; Gurnee Police Chief Robert Jones; His Eminence Frances George Cardinal George, OMI, Archbishop of Chicago; Rabbi Michael Balinsky, Executive Vice President, Chicago Board of Rabbis; Bishop James Wilkowski, Evangelical Catholic Bishop, Diocese of the Northwest; Rev. Claude Christopher, Presiding Elder Chicago District AME Zion Church; The Right Rev. Jeffrey D. Lee, Episcopal Diocese of Chicago; The Right Rev. Dr. John C. Reynolds, Executive Presbyter, Presbytery of Chicago; American Academy of Pediatrics – Illinois, League of Women Voters, Voices for Illinois Children, National Council of Jewish Women, Northwest Municipal Conference, Children’s Memorial Hospital, Illinois Restaurant Association, Purpose Over Pain, Loyola University Chicago, Crime Victims United of Illinois, The Deborah Movement, and the Uhlich Children’s Advantage Network (UCAN).

http://www.ichv.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/ccw-fact-sheet-ha2.pdf

Also in that article:

The evidence does NOT support the claim that CCW laws reduce crime. Numerous academic studies by respected researchers (including the University of Chicago and Johns Hopkins University) have systematically criticized the methodology and faulty conclusions of studies cited by gun rights advocates as proof that CCW laws reduce violent crime.5 Studies published by the Stanford Law Review and the Journal of Trauma concluded that there is no statistical evidence that CCW laws reduce crime. The studies found that the adoption of such laws generally will increase crime. 6 In addition, a 2005 National Academy of Sciences report found that there is no evidence to support the claim that CCW laws have a causal link to crime rate reduction.7

I've noted this before, so i though a little preemption might avoid this coming up.

Anyway, do a search, and you'll find links to law enforcement across the contry opposing such laws.

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The official position of the Chicago Police Department is dictated by the Mayor of Chicago, so that's certainly no surprise. I heard a Chicago copper on the radio the other day say that the majority of them think it's a good idea. 'Course that means nothing in the scheme of things, since it may not even be true.

Chicago Shootings: Two Dead, At Least Eight Wounded Overnight Apr 30, 2011 ... Two people were killed and at least eight people were wounded in separate Chicago shootings late Friday into early Saturday.
Chicago Shootings: Two Dead, At Least Eight Wounded Overnight - Cached

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Chicago Shootings: At Least 19 Shot During Two Warm Chicago DaysMar 18, 2011 ... In 48 unseasonably warm hours, at least 19 people were shot ...Chicago Shootings: At Least 19 Shot During Two Warm Chicago Days - Cached

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12 wounded in city shootings
11 hours ago

At least 12 people — six of whom are in their teens — were wounded in apparently unrelated shootings throughout Chicago on Monday evening into early Tuesday ...SouthtownStar

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January 2011 - 28 Murders in Chicago - Midland-Odessa true crime ...January 2011 - 28 Murders in Chicago. February 1st, 2011 10:41 pm CT ... Twenty-seven more homicides occurred in Chicago in January 2011. ...
www.examiner.com/true-crime.../january-2011-26-murders-chicago - Cached

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Looks to me like the Chicago PD could use some help. Innocents aren't droppin' like flies from accidental shootings by licensed gun owners in right-to-carry states. I'm inclined to think I'd rather take my chances.

Removable Mind said:

Okay...just booze and guns...how's that?

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making stupid comments that have no basis in fact is really pretty lame we smelled the same garment soiling from the Brady ninnies when carrying by NON DRINKERS in bars was allowed. If you are drinking and possess a weapon you are engaging in criminal behavior

Look it up

TurtleDude said:

making stupid comments that have no basis in fact is really pretty lame we smelled the same garment soiling from the Brady ninnies when carrying by NON DRINKERS in bars was allowed. If you are drinking and possess a weapon you are engaging in criminal behavior

Look it up

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TD...your tortoise shell gets sooooo illuminous when you get all hot and bothered...

Brady ninnes? How many people to you care about has ever been shot in the head?

DUDE...I live in Texas. Texas babies are born with a license to carry a concealed weapon.