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Obama administration fights to save healthcare law

roughdraft274 said:
Senate passes health-care bill, now must reconcile it with House


I'm the one re-writing history? They voted on it and got 60, then later on there was a reconciliation bill passed by both the house and senate that only needed 50 votes that just changed a few minor things. It wasn't illegal by any means. At the end of the day, that actual healthcare bill was passed with 60 votes.

The final bill was nothing but rehashing of the same crap that has been gone through by everyone and their moms for a year before the bill passed. They didn't slide in any mysteries.

Like I said, you can criticize the bill but shoved down our throats it was not. You'd know that if you didn't get so caught up in the talking points that are fed to you.
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quit acting silly,
you CANT REWRITE HISTORY..

nor can you make the vote to pass Obamacare anything other than what it was, a BYPASS of normal procedure especially a procedure on a trillion dollar spending fiasco that no one, NO ONE to this day fully understands, nor that the American people were ready to embrace.. If its ok with you we would like our elected officials to understand and be able to explain to us what they are about to spend our money on..

liberal mindset is very annoying... stop it


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House could bypass vote on US healthcare bill
By Anna Fifield in Washington

Published: March 16 2010 20:26 | Last updated: March 16 2010 22:35

Struggling to shore up support for US healthcare reform, Democratic leaders in the House of Representatives are considering using a complicated manoeuvre to pass a bill without having to put it to a vote.

The tactic, which would “deem” the bill passed once a series of fixes to it had also been passed, would prove highly contentious given the wide scope of healthcare reform. Republicans on Tuesday condemned even the thought of using it.

EDITOR’S CHOICE
In depth: US healthcare reform - Feb-21Republicans set to fight healthcare reform - Nov-10Top US court rejects healthcare challenge - Nov-08Obama accused of missing healthcare opportunity - Oct-22Editorial: Healthcare reform - Oct-18Republicans seek to frustrate health reform - Oct-17“Anyone who endorses this strategy will be forever remembered for trying to claim they didn’t vote for something they did,” said Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate. “It will go down as one of the most extraordinary legislative sleights of hand in history.”Democratic leaders in the House have pledged to hold a vote on healthcare reform before President Barack Obama leaves for Indonesia and Australia on Sunday.

But House majority leaders are still short of the 216 votes needed to pass the Senate bill, pushing them to now consider a strategy under which Democrats would incorporate the Senate bill into a rule governing the terms of the healthcare debate on the House floor.

Once that rule was passed, House leaders could “deem” the Senate bill to have passed without ever putting the reform bill itself to a direct vote.

This would enable Democratic lawmakers who are still reluctant to vote for the healthcare bill or are facing opposition in their home districts to say that they never voted for the actual bill, while still achieving one of Mr Obama’s core domestic aims.

“We have several options available to us,” Nancy Pelosi, speaker of the House, said on Tuesday, adding that she had still not made a decision on whether to move ahead with the “deem and pass” strategy.


Ms Pelosi acknowledged that, despite intensive meetings with wavering lawmakers, she was still having trouble attracting support. “There are a lot of members who don’t want to vote for it,” she told reporters.

Because Democrats have lost their super-majority in the Senate and have no prospect of any Republican support, the only option for enacting healthcare legislation is to have the House pass the Senate bill, and then for both chambers to pass a package of fixes that would bridge some of the differences between them.


This is crunch week for Democrats as they make a final push to pass healthcare reform, after a year of debate that has culminated in a series of surprising procedural manouevres given that Democrats enjoy a large majority in the House, and had a super-majority in the Senate until January.

As the arm-twisting continues, Mr Obama has this week been holding one-on-one sessions with wavering Democrats in the Oval office, trying to convince them to vote for his signature reform.
 
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shades said:
quit acting silly,
you CANT REWRITE HISTORY..

nor can you make the vote to pass Obamacare anything other than what it was, a BYPASS of normal procedure especially a procedure on a trillion dollar spending fiasco that no one, NO ONE to this day fully understands, nor that the American people were ready to embrace.. If its ok with you we would like our elected officials to understand and be able to explain to us what they are about to spend our money on..

liberal mindset is very annoying... stop it

FT.com / US / Politics & Foreign policy - House could bypass vote on US healthcare bill
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Your link is describing something that the House could have done, not what they did. Read it for yourself.
FT.com / US / Politics & Foreign policy - House could bypass vote on US healthcare bill
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Could... Could... Could... in case you didn't see it the first time. Here's numerous links showing you that it was passed with 60 votes in the senate...

Blance Lambert Lincoln Votes Yes On Healthcare
Senate Dems reach 60 votes for health care bill - USATODAY.com
Reid Gets 60 Votes for Health Care Debate - Political Hotsheet - CBS News
Democrats Get Their 60 Votes for Health Care. Now What? - Derek Thompson - Business - The Atlantic

Are you still denying that they passed it with 60 votes? Why are you linking to stuff that was written BEFORE the bill was even passed? What the hell bypassed normal procedure? You seem to be upset at something that you don't understand at all and really don't want to understand.
 
by the time it went back to the senate for the final vote after it came back from the house with revisions, Scott Brown was in town..
so they bypassed the senate vote and passed the house bill..

a procedural slight of hand

just stop it
 
shades said:
Struggling to shore up support for US healthcare reform, Democratic leaders in the House of Representatives are considering using a complicated manoeuvre to pass a bill without having to put it to a vote.

The tactic, which would “deem” the bill passed once a series of fixes to it had also been passed, would prove highly contentious given the wide scope of healthcare reform. Republicans on Tuesday condemned even the thought of using it.
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They never used this tactic. People talked about it but it was never used. Seriously. Were you under a rock for that whole debate?

Self-executing rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In March 2010, the procedure was one option considered, and then rejected, by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D) and congressional Democrats to pass the Reconciliation Act of 2010 (H.R. 4872) and the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (H.R. 3590), as part of President Obama's health care reform initiative.[3][7][8]
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Do you not understand that this article of yours was written before the bill was even passed? It was never used. Get over it. You're wrong, and obviously and demonstrably so.
 
roughdraft274 said:
They never used this tactic. People talked about it but it was never used. Seriously. Were you under a rock for that whole debate?

Self-executing rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Do you not understand that this article of yours was written before the bill was even passed? It was never used. Get over it. You're wrong, and obviously and demonstrably so.
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Reports The Associated Press:

Obama is expected to sign the larger bill early this week.

The complicated two-step process was made necessary because Senate Democrats lost their filibuster-proof supermajority in a special election in January, a setback that caused even some Democratic lawmakers to pronounce the yearlong health care effort dead. Under the relentless prodding of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, in particular, it was gradually revived, and the fix-it bill will be considered under fast-track Senate rules that don’t allow minority party filibusters.

“We will be joining those who established Social Security, Medicare and now, tonight, health care for all Americans,” said Pelosi, D-Calif., partner to Obama and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid in the grueling campaign to pass the legislation.

“This is the civil rights act of the 21st century,” added Rep. Jim Clyburn of South Carolina, the top-ranking black member of the House.

GOP lawmakers attacked the legislation as everything from a government takeover to the beginning of totalitarianism, and none voted in favor. “Hell no!” Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, shouted in a fiery speech opposing the legislation. “We have failed to listen to America and we have failed to reflect the will of our constituents.”

Thirty-four Democrats also voted “no” on the Senate-passed bill.
 
shades said:
by the time it went back to the senate for the final vote after it came back from the house with revisions, Scott Brown was in town..
so they bypassed the senate vote and passed the house bill..

a procedural slight of hand

just stop it
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Did they use deem and pass?
 
shades said:
Reports The Associated Press:

Obama is expected to sign the larger bill early this week.

The complicated two-step process was made necessary because Senate Democrats lost their filibuster-proof supermajority in a special election in January, a setback that caused even some Democratic lawmakers to pronounce the yearlong health care effort dead. Under the relentless prodding of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, in particular, it was gradually revived, and the fix-it bill will be considered under fast-track Senate rules that don’t allow minority party filibusters.

“We will be joining those who established Social Security, Medicare and now, tonight, health care for all Americans,” said Pelosi, D-Calif., partner to Obama and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid in the grueling campaign to pass the legislation.

“This is the civil rights act of the 21st century,” added Rep. Jim Clyburn of South Carolina, the top-ranking black member of the House.

GOP lawmakers attacked the legislation as everything from a government takeover to the beginning of totalitarianism, and none voted in favor. “Hell no!” Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, shouted in a fiery speech opposing the legislation. “We have failed to listen to America and we have failed to reflect the will of our constituents.”

Thirty-four Democrats also voted “no” on the Senate-passed bill.
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Are you mad because they only needed 50 votes or because they used deem and pass? Do you even know what youre arguing?
 
roughdraft274 said:
Your link is describing something that the House could have done, not what they did. Read it for yourself.

Could... Could... Could... in case you didn't see it the first time. Here's numerous links showing you that it was passed with 60 votes in the senate...

Blance Lambert Lincoln Votes Yes On Healthcare
Senate Dems reach 60 votes for health care bill - USATODAY.com
Reid Gets 60 Votes for Health Care Debate - Political Hotsheet - CBS News
Democrats Get Their 60 Votes for Health Care. Now What? - Derek Thompson - Business - The Atlantic

Are you still denying that they passed it with 60 votes? Why are you linking to stuff that was written BEFORE the bill was even passed? What the hell bypassed normal procedure? You seem to be upset at something that you don't understand at all and really don't want to understand.
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It may well have followed "procedure" but fell far short of the so called transpanency that Obama, and demo's promised in campaigning to take the offices they held. Maybe you need a refresher.

After the middle-of-the-night vote, there will be a maximum of 30 hours debate on the amendment. Then there will be a 30-hour period for a Republican substitute bill, followed by a 30-hour period on the final bill. Reid's schedule calls for a final, final vote on the health care measure to take place at about 7 p.m. on Christmas Eve. Voila! The bill will be passed by Christmas. That couldn't be done unless the Reid Amendment cloture vote were held in the earliest hours of Monday morning, setting off the final chain of votes and waiting periods. "This is purely to satisfy a self-imposed, arbitrary deadline," says the GOP aide.

By the way, when the 1 a.m. vote took place, the Reid Amendment had been public for about 36 hours, and the public had not had a single business day to examine it. "Make no mistake," said Minority Leader Mitch McConnell a few minutes before the vote. "If the people who wrote this bill were proud of it, they wouldn't be forcing this vote in the dead of night." Referring to the Nelson buy-off and other special arrangements in the bill, McConnell said few people would have imagined that the health care debate would have ended "with a couple of cheap deals and a rushed vote at one o'clock in the morning."

But that's what happened. In the end, to no one's surprise, the Reid Amendment moved ahead, 60-40, on a straight party-line vote. Democrats can blame Sen. Coburn and Republicans all they like, but the fact is, there is no reason, beyond the Christmas deadline, that the vote had to take place at 1 a.m.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: Who's responsible for the Senate's middle-of-the-night vote? | Byron York | Beltway Confidential | Washington Examiner
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Not the actions of a policy that you libs thought was popular no doubt.

j-mac
 
Joe Steel said:
Anyone opposing AffordableCare is either a stooge for the plutocrats or a dupe. We need this law. It is the only way America can prosper. Without it, American companies will continue to export jobs and that means economic devastation for all Americans.
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You were born under a rock, a very stupid rock. Explain exactly how spending billions will make us prosper. Exporting jobs has absolutely NOTHING to do with healthcare. God you are dumb, but then I see "Very Liberal" as your tag, so why should I expect anything different.
 
j-mac said:
It may well have followed "procedure" but fell far short of the so called transpanency that Obama, and demo's promised in campaigning to take the offices they held. Maybe you need a refresher.



Not the actions of a policy that you libs thought was popular no doubt.

j-mac
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We weren't debating how transparent the process was J-Mac. Honestly I could care less. I think the healthcare bill was a good thing and as long as they passed it legally i could care less how butthurt it makes some conservatives.
 
roughdraft274 said:
Shoved it through? The healthcare bill went through all the normal measures and was in the spotlight for a year. There aren't any secrets in it. They passed it with the 60 votes they needed to break the filibuster. You can criticize the bill of course but if you want to say it was shoved down our throats through illegal processes then you're just wrong.
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Fact is, Democrats were cooperative w/Republicans on crafting health care reform legislation until Republicans become obstructionist about it. The People had plenty of time to debate the issues. Many Republican ideas are in the reform law including the state-sponsored health insurance exchanges and the individual mandate. That I can't stress enough; it was a Republican idea long before it was a Democrat idea. So, how those on the Right can claim "unfair" or that they were kept out of the loop is just absurd. But the Dems cried foul when Reps wrote laws behind closed doors under Reagan; I guess it only fair that they cried foul when the Dems did it under Obama.

"Times may change but some things remain the same."
 
roughdraft274 said:
We weren't debating how transparent the process was J-Mac. Honestly I could care less. I think the healthcare bill was a good thing and as long as they passed it legally i could care less how butthurt it makes some conservatives.
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And the legallity of that is what is in the courts now, and HC not fairing too well I see. But good to see that you are at least honest in that you could care less what the people want, as long as you ram your crap through....Is that what was promised? People will remember in '12


j-mac
 
they are impossible to talk to, they see what they want to see.

the 2012 election spoke volumes not seen since the end of the new deal... America sees what is happening, the back door deals, the procedural cramming.
Unions and other lobbyists have been given "waivers" on this monstrosity..
Obamacare has no chance in hell of ever standing..

just a matter of time... the states will do it one at a time if they have to..

and no one defending Obamacare has yet to explain how its going to help me, us, the ones paying the bills..

i pay 8200.oo a year for my family plan through my employer..

whats the upside for me? fair question being i will be paying for Obamacare..

lets stop arguing how it got through and explain to me, to us..please..the upside

Im all ears
 
shades said:
lets stop arguing how it got through and explain to me, to us..please..the upside

Im all ears
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Let me wrap up this short debate we just had.

Shades: They shoved it down our throats illegally!
Roughdraft:They got 60 votes and it was debated for a year under a national spotlight. It wasn't rammed through.
Shades: They never got 60 votes!
Roughdraft: Yes they did and heres proof.
Shades: They used deem and pass!
Roughdraft: No they didn't and here's proof.
Shades: Hmph, liberals are impossible to talk to!

You were wrong on damn near everything you said or thought. Meanwhile through the whole process you were acting as if I'm the idiot while I'm correcting you with ample proof. Read a book dude. Read a newspaper. Read anything for that matter. Breath some fresh air and put away the koolaid.

Admit that they didn't use any illegal processes, they did have 60 votes for the main healthcare bill, and that they didn't use deem and pass and we can continue but unless you can admit the blatantly obvious truth then I'm done debating with someone that refuses to accept 2+2=4.
 
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Objective Voice said:
Fact is, Democrats were cooperative w/Republicans on crafting health care reform legislation until Republicans become obstructionist about it.
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Stop! Stop right there....Revision this soon after the lie is a dumb tactic, you are smarter than to try and do it....

So far, that's where things stand with the final negotiations of the healthcare legislation, just as it had for much of the issue's legislative journey. Even while Reid declared in November that transparency is "one of the guiding principles of health insurance reform," Democrats sought to work out the final details of the bill in secret and rush a new bill through before the American people know what hit them.

Republicans, all too familiar to being locked out by Democrats, aren't holding their breath—and Lamb's letter has yet to receive a reply. C-SPAN's open call for full transparency is a highly unusual move for a media organization that steadfastly refuses to take sides, demonstrating how far Democrats have gone in cloaking the healthcare bill with more secrecy than even the Washington Wizards locker room.

C-SPAN Demands Democrats Open Secret Health Reform Talks - Doug Heye (usnews.com)
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Reid didn't stop at just Repubs, hell, he locked out C-SPAN.....Now you libs forgett.



j-mac
 
roughdraft274 said:
Let me wrap up this short debate we just had.

Shades: They shoved it down our throats illegally!
Roughdraft:They got 60 votes and it was debated for a year under a national spotlight. It wasn't rammed through.
Shades: They never got 60 votes!
Roughdraft: Yes they did and heres proof.
Shades: They used deem and pass!
Roughdraft: No they didn't and here's proof.
Shades: Hmph, liberals are impossible to talk to!

You were wrong on damn near everything you said or thought. Meanwhile through the whole process you were acting as if I'm the idiot while I'm correcting you with ample proof. Read a book dude. Read a newspaper. Read anything for that matter. Breath some fresh air and put away the koolaid.

Admit that they didn't use any illegal processes, they did have 60 votes for the main healthcare bill, and that they didn't use deem and pass and we can continue but unless you can admit the blatantly obvious truth then I'm done debating with someone that refuses to accept 2+2=4.
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more namecalling?
nice

care to answer my question?
what will Obamacare do for those of us paying for it?

simple question, and really what is at the root of us NOT WANTING IT

and stop with the name calling, makes you look like 12
 
and while you are trying to come up with some good this bill will do, it will take a while so...read this real slow....

In the week before the vote, Barack Obama held private meetings or telephone conversations with 64 different congressmen. At least one of them, Rep. Jim Costa (D-Calif.), bragged publicly that he used his face time with the president to demand some “special consideration” for his Central Valley district. On March 16, the Interior Department came through, announcing that the water allocation there would be increased from 5 percent to 25 percent. On Saturday, Costa—a former no vote—said he had flipped to yes. But deal-doing had nothing to do with it, of course.

The president also hopped aboard Air Force One and flew to rallies in states where wavering House Democrats resided. He showed up in Pennsylvania (home to five uncommitted votes), Missouri (three wavering Democrats), Ohio (eight undeclared congressmen) and Virginia (four).

The president’s advance men made sure Obama would be talking to friendly crowds. And of course the local media was out in droves. So the Left could be assured of plenty of favorable coverage.

One person who would be missing from the show was the local congressman. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi wasn’t about to allow members of the House to go home until a vote was taken. No Spring Break for those guys and gals! The speaker knew she didn’t dare risk letting representatives go home then. Otherwise, too many would see first-hand just how opposed most of their constituents were to the measure.

While the president used the honey of his rhetoric and the promise of government largesse to win votes, political heavies such as the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) and Moveon.org used threats. Their message was short and simple: Vote no on Obamacare and we’ll find someone else to take your place in Congress.

But all of the bullying, bluffs and bluster wasn’t enough. Kimberley Strassel, who writes the Potomac Watch column for the Wall Street Journal, had been following this story for months. The day after that fateful vote, she reported, “By the weekend, all the pressure and threats and bribes had left the speaker three to five votes short.”

As it happened, there were half-a-dozen votes just waiting to be plucked. All the House leadership had to do to get them was agree to include a line in the legislation saying that no Federal funds would be used to provide abortions. The danger was that if they agreed they’d lose more than six votes among the pro-abortion crowd in the House.

I don’t know who came up with the compromise, but it was a dandy. The language of the legislation wouldn’t be changed—but the president promised to issue an executive order afterwards, stating that no Federal funds provided by the bill could be used for abortions.

That was all it took for Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.) to fold like an accordion. On Sunday afternoon he announced that he and five other colleagues would now support the legislation.

Pro-abortion supporters chortled that such an executive order wouldn’t change a thing. Bart and his buddies had been duped. One pro-life congressman was so upset that he shouted out “baby killer!” during the debate on the House floor.

But, no matter. The dirty deed was done. And within hours, the most radical healthcare legislation in history had been approved by the House of Representatives.

Because the powers-that-be decided to use a sneaky parliamentary procedure called “reconciliation” to pass the measure, that was all it took. There would be no chance for opponents to stop it in the Senate, despite the victory of Scott Brown in Massachusetts. (Click here to see my tirade two weeks ago, called Hey Washington—Reconcile This)

During and after the debate I collected a basketful of quotes by people on both sides of the issue. I’ll spare you all of the gleeful smugness of the victors and most of the dire warnings from the losers. But let me share with you my favorite, which comes from Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas):

“It was truly a sad weekend on the House floor as we witnessed the further dismantling of the Constitution, disregard of the will of the people, explosive expansion of the reach of government, unprecedented corporate favoritism, and the impending end of quality healthcare as we know it….

“Of course, the most troubling aspect of this bill is that it is so blatantly unconstitutional and contrary to the ideals of liberty. Nowhere in the Constitution is there anything approaching authority for the Federal government to do any of this.”
 
shades said:
more namecalling?
nice

care to answer my question?
what will Obamacare do for those of us paying for it?

simple question, and really what is at the root of us NOT WANTING IT

and stop with the name calling, makes you look like 12
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Exactly what names did I call you? Got a problem with it report my post and let a mod look at it.

I'm not jumping off to other topics unless I figure out whether youre someone that would actually admit that they are wrong, like on the three thigs I've asked you to admit that you're wrong on, mostly because you are obviously wrong. You continually jumping from subject to subject isn't good for debating period. Lets resolve the other stuff first then start something new.

Did the Dem's get 60 votes for the actual healthcare bill?

Did they use any illegal procedures? If so name them?

Did the use deem and pass? A link stating that they did use it?
 
roughdraft274 said:
Exactly what names did I call you? Got a problem with it report my post and let a mod look at it.

I'm not jumping off to other topics unless I figure out whether youre someone that would actually admit that they are wrong, like on the three thigs I've asked you to admit that you're wrong on, mostly because you are obviously wrong. You continually jumping from subject to subject isn't good for debating period. Lets resolve the other stuff first then start something new.

Did the Dem's get 60 votes for the actual healthcare bill?

Did they use any illegal procedures? If so name them?

Did the use deem and pass? A link stating that they did use it?
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Where I grew up

Read a book dude. Read a newspaper. Read anything for that matter. Breath some fresh air and put away the koolaid. = name calling like a little girl would that knew she could get away with it because of her stature.
I run into guys like you all the time.. honestly, if you were standing in front of me would you look me in the eye and say "Read a book dude. Read a newspaper. Read anything for that matter. Breath some fresh air and put away the koolaid."

of course not, so dont do it in cyberspace, like I said it makes you look 12.
but
lets put that aside, because honestly I have no beef with you, it serves no purpose.

on topic, I dont think I said they did anything illegal, it was unethical and back door, and for something this large it shouldnt be done that way. not in the America i grew up in.. you debate, and if a bill this far reaching runs into as much opposition and angst in the public opinion, you dont pass it.. dictators do that kind of thing.

and if you read my last article above and dont have a problem with any of that, then maybe I'm not talking to an American. not an American that will be part of the solution to bring this country back to what it once was and can be..

put the divide in this country into two seperate "villages", and I'll wager in a very short time you will be asking to come live in mine after you get to know your neighbors..
think about that, and stop with the grandstanding, and offer us what in Gods name this health care "reform" will do for me, short term or long term and I'll gladly admit I'm "wrong" if that will make you feel better.
And yea, I said what will it do for ME... thats not selfish, its my money too. AND I'll still be paying ridiculous premiums to boot.
 
hazlnut said:
You mean like in...

1 France - Universal Coverage
2 Italy - publicly run and funded
3 San Marino - state funded
4 Andorra - similar to French system
5 Malta - publicly funded
6 Singapore - universal health care
7 Spain - free or low cost
8 Oman - free access to all
9 Austria - generous social system that has reduced spending in recent years
10 Japan - provides healthcare services, including screening examinations, prenatal care and infectious disease control, with the patient accepting responsibility for 30% of these costs while the government pays the remaining 70%.


BTW Zimmer - on that WHO list, we rank 37...



So, for all the money we spend, we kill more living breathing baby's than Slovenia... How come this doesn't bother the far-right? They only care about the non-vaible 5-10 inch embryo.
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What do you know, many of the countries you've listed there are flat broke, not that it is all attainable and to blame on UHC, but other socialistic policies as well.

Why is nobody looking toward applying the reform artist of Mitch Daniels health care reform in Indiana? He lowered health care cost by an astounding 11% ....

Mitch Daniels: Healthcare Reform Hoosier Stylee « JoHNBRoDiGaNDoTCoM
 
shades said:
Where I grew up

Read a book dude. Read a newspaper. Read anything for that matter. Breath some fresh air and put away the koolaid. = name calling like a little girl would that knew she could get away with it because of her stature.
I run into guys like you all the time.. honestly, if you were standing in front of me would you look me in the eye and say "Read a book dude. Read a newspaper. Read anything for that matter. Breath some fresh air and put away the koolaid."

of course not, so dont do it in cyberspace, like I said it makes you look 12.
but
lets put that aside, because honestly I have no beef with you, it serves no purpose.
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I told you all of that because it's true. You complained about the deem and pass rule THAT WASN'T EVEN USED! You complained that they didn't get 60 votes when they obviously did. You have no clue what you're talking about here which is why you started by complaining about all those things and now reverting back to saying that they didn't do anything illegal, they just weren't nice enough about it. I don't care about whether you think they were nice about it. They got 60 votes. That's what's needed. If you think they broke laws then we can talk about that but it appears you just did a complete 180 and are now admitting you were wrong on that.
shades said:
on topic, I dont think I said they did anything illegal, it was unethical and back door, and for something this large it shouldnt be done that way. not in the America i grew up in.. you debate, and if a bill this far reaching runs into as much opposition and angst in the public opinion, you dont pass it.. dictators do that kind of thing.
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shades from earlier said:
The bill wasnt explained, the final draft wasnt given time to even read much less understand, and never would have or did make it out of the senate..
So the dems pulled a procedural, technical, and yes criminal in this case fast one,
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You don't think you said they did anything illegal? You're wrong again. And then you wonder why I don't take you very seriously. You don't know what you're talking about, you have no idea what you've said, you post links saying that they might use deem and pass even though they never did etc... You'll find anything and everything to complain about even if it never happened. We have gotten into factual arguments here. There are very easy yes or no answers and if you and I can't reach a conclusion as to whether these very obvious things are true or false then I don't see any reason in going off and debating you in the finer points of individual mandates and healthcare exchanges.
shades said:
and if you read my last article above and dont have a problem with any of that, then maybe I'm not talking to an American. not an American that will be part of the solution to bring this country back to what it once was and can be..
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Oh lord. I'm not american? Get over yourself. This bill was debated for ages. Every nook and cranny of this thing was discussed on every channel for a year. It was passed legally with a super majority in the senate. Politics isn't about making sure the other side doesn't get upset. Like I said, if you're only problem is that they weren't nice about it then it seems like we have no reason to sit here and debate cause I could care less how upset it makes you when people on the other side of the isle pass bills. That whole "you're not an american" thing makes you sound like a drunk yokel.
shades said:
put the divide in this country into two seperate "villages", and I'll wager in a very short time you will be asking to come live in mine after you get to know your neighbors..
think about that, and stop with the grandstanding, and offer us what in Gods name this health care "reform" will do for me, short term or long term and I'll gladly admit I'm "wrong" if that will make you feel better.
And yea, I said what will it do for ME... thats not selfish, its my money too. AND I'll still be paying ridiculous premiums to boot.
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The healthcare bill was filled with common sense solutions. Many of these ideas (individual mandate, etc.) were what the Republicans wanted to do a decade ago.
Like I said dude. Admit they got 60 votes and didn't use the deem and pass. It looks like you finally wrapped your head around the idea that they didn't do anything illegal, now lets go for the other two.
 
j-mac said:
Stop! Stop right there....Revision this soon after the lie is a dumb tactic, you are smarter than to try and do it....




Reid didn't stop at just Repubs, hell, he locked out C-SPAN.....Now you libs forgett.



j-mac
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What you provide doesn't dispute him. What you link happened after Republicans made it clear they were not going to work with Democrats.
 
roughdraft274 said:
I told you all of that because it's true.
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I'd love to see you say things like that on the street to real people that can knock you on your ass. I doubt you'd be so bold.

You complained about the deem and pass rule THAT WASN'T EVEN USED!
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That was their next step. They even said as much publicly. The vote for Obamacare was a party line vote that Obama had to bribe, and Reed had to threaten to get into line. And if that wasn't good enough, did he make the process transparent? NO, did he ensure that people not only understood what was in it, but had time online to read it like he promised? NO, did he use the majorities in both house and senate to ram this through at 1 a.m., locking out C-SPAN to hide it from the eyes of the people? YES he did. So don't even attempt to portray this as some kind of bipartisan achievement that he should be praised for. He used, demo's used thug, heavy handed tactics to get this done and you damn well know it.

If you think they broke laws then we can talk about that
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If the case is won in the SCOTUS that they overstepped their constitutional bounds by requiring that people purchase a product, then yes, they will have violated the constitution, and thus broken law. So I wouldn't be yelling too loudly yet that no law was broken, we don't know the disposition of that.


The healthcare bill was filled with common sense solutions. Many of these ideas (individual mandate, etc.) were what the Republicans wanted to do a decade ago.
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This part is pure spin as well. Trying to lay this off on republicans is the lowest, and most cowardly thing I have seen in defense of this plan yet, and really shows its weakness. If it were so strong a plan, and so many were behind it like you seem to say, then why does this little lie, I mean revelation only come out now? Come on, your reaching, and desperate here. Obamacare is unpopular, and my guess is that before it gets smacked down in the SC they will table the law, in the interest of doing what the people want.....

Then you all go silent.

j-mac
 
Boo Radley said:
What you provide doesn't dispute him. What you link happened after Republicans made it clear they were not going to work with Democrats.
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The demo's were locking out repubs from talks on the structure of the law when it was in bill stage. The only "ideas" they were taking from repubs, or claiming that they got from them were ones that they could hand around their necks later.

This law is a disaster. Your hero at work.


j-mac
 
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