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Osama Bin Laden is dead

or at least if they did it wouldn't change much if they had never come in contact with a toy gun.

If someone treated a real gun as a toy gun, them having a toy gun in the past would be irrelevant?

i think by far and large most mature people wouldn't treat a real gun like a toy gun,

They treat it as something other than a real gun, that's for sure. How many shootings are "accidents", among adults let alone especially among children?
 
And that's what they do. remember, they're trying to breath.

That's where you're wrong....no water goes in the lungs during waterboarding.

Not sure what you mean by deny it, but you're factually incorrect concerning waterboarding. It is and always ahs been torture. If it were as easy as you THINK it woud not do anything. It woudl not even get the confessions it is so successful at getting regardless of actual guilt. however, regardless, we have history that shows we, the US, have considered it torture in the past. And rightly so.

I am not factually incorrect concerning waterboarding. It isn't and never has been torture.
 
If someone treated a real gun as a toy gun, them having a toy gun in the past would be irrelevant?

They treat it as something other than a real gun, that's for sure. How many shootings are "accidents", among adults let alone especially among children?

Plenty but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with toy guns. I can understand some accidents happen because of a lack of respect for guns, but removing toy guns from the home is a bit too extreme because it does nothing. That, and the fact that children should not be in reach of weaponry full stop, that's negligence on behalf of the parent.
 
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That's where you're wrong....no water goes in the lungs during waterboarding.

No, you are the one in error:

There is a real risk of death from actually drowning or suffering a heart attack or damage to the lungs from inhalation of water

Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In the media, waterboarding is called "simulated drowning," but that's a misnomer. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning.

Read more: I know waterboarding is torture - because I did it myself

There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists

1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.

2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

Naval Leadership: Waterboarding is Torture… Period



I am not factually incorrect concerning waterboarding. It isn't and never has been torture.

Like above, you are factually incorrect. We have prosecuted both foeign soliders and our own for using it, calling it torture. We ahve prosecuted law enforcement offices for using it. We have called it torture and held people accountable for doing it.
 
you gonna follow me from thread to thread and heckle? Come on....you can have any, I told you.

Wow. So me hitting the "new threads" link equals paranoia on your part. Gotcha.
 
We have prosecuted both foreign soliders and our own for using it, calling it torture. We have prosecuted law enforcement offices for using it. We have called it torture and held people accountable for doing it.

Exactly. Thank you.
 


Exactly. Thank you.

That is not right.

The Japanese used it on people for fun on thousands of people. We did this to exactly 3 people.

Those that compare the two simply have no idea what they are talking about.

The Bush Admin asked where the line was that technically reaches torture.

They went right up to that line and it stopped terrorist attacks, saved innocent lives, and helped kill OBL.
 
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We have prosecuted both foreign soliders and our own for using it, calling it torture. We have prosecuted law enforcement offices for using it. We have called it torture and held people accountable for doing it.

We prosecuted Japanese for bombing Shanghai, too. Ever hear the phrase, "To the victors go the spoils"?
 
We prosecuted Japanese for bombing Shanghai, too. Ever hear the phrase, "To the victors go the spoils"?

Yes, I have. But the point is we called it torture. And we did it so not only against the defeated, but our own.
 
Yes, I have. But the point is we called it torture. And we did it so not only against the defeated, but our own.

We called the bombing of Shangai a war crime, too. We also called unrestricted submarine warfare a war crime. We summarily executed German camp gaurds, without due process, as well. It's only torture when the bad guys do it. When we do it, we're collecting valuable information to protect American lives. You Liberals need to figure out which team you're really on. Ya'll seem to have alot of trouble with that.

The sad part about it, is that you Leftists think that anything short of a 4 star hotel as a prison, is considered torture.
 
We called the bombing of Shangai a war crime, too. We also called unrestricted submarine warfare a war crime. We summarily executed German camp gaurds, without due process, as well. It's only torture when the bad guys do it. When we do it, we're collecting valuable information to protect American lives. You Liberals need to figure out which team you're really on. Ya'll seem to have alot of trouble with that.

The sad part about it, is that you Leftists think that anything short of a 4 star hotel as a prison, is considered torture.

Again, the poit is you can't say it isn't torture when we have historically called it torture, even to the point of charging our own.

And you should really not battle leftists. You should address the argument before you. Doing things wrong in the past does not justify doing things wrong in the present. Wrong is wrong. We did a lot wrong in WWII. And torture is torture no matter who does it, which is in part why we charged our own.
 
Again, the poit is you can't say it isn't torture when we have historically called it torture, even to the point of charging our own.

And you should really not battle leftists. You should address the argument before you. Doing things wrong in the past does not justify doing things wrong in the present. Wrong is wrong. We did a lot wrong in WWII. And torture is torture no matter who does it, which is in part why we charged our own.

Doing things wrong, that cause defeat are wrong. Things that bring success, during a war, are the right things to do. There are no points for good sportsmanship.
 
Doing things wrong, that cause defeat are wrong. Things that bring success, during a war, are the right things to do. There are no points for good sportsmanship.

Another leap. Our enemy here can't defeat us period. But there is no evidence that breaking the law or doing what is moral would in any way defeat us. Frankly, conventional interrogation is largely more effective than torture. We have evidence here as we got the good intel long after we stopped using waterboarding. Nearly all the research on torturing concludes it is ineffective for information gathering, but excellent for getting confessions as even the innocent will confess.
 
No, you are the one in error:

There is a real risk of death from actually drowning or suffering a heart attack or damage to the lungs from inhalation of water

Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In the media, waterboarding is called "simulated drowning," but that's a misnomer. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning.

Read more: I know waterboarding is torture - because I did it myself

There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists

1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.

2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

Naval Leadership: Waterboarding is Torture… Period





Like above, you are factually incorrect. We have prosecuted both foeign soliders and our own for using it, calling it torture. We ahve prosecuted law enforcement offices for using it. We have called it torture and held people accountable for doing it.

You can inhale water and drown or have a heart attack in the shower..that doesn't make a shower torture. You can call it a quinceanera if you like, that doesn't make it one.
 
Another leap. Our enemy here can't defeat us period. But there is no evidence that breaking the law or doing what is moral would in any way defeat us. Frankly, conventional interrogation is largely more effective than torture. We have evidence here as we got the good intel long after we stopped using waterboarding. Nearly all the research on torturing concludes it is ineffective for information gathering, but excellent for getting confessions as even the innocent will confess.

You think your enemies are using "conventional interrogation" methods? What they will do is just put a bomb on a plane, slit your throat and video the act, blow up a bridge or any transportation system while you think you're taking some imaginary high road. They'll have you cowering in terror while you're trying to talk to them of your Constitution.

Here's what really happens to your Constitution when fear is on the line..

One of Terry Jones’ Jurors Confirms It: Muslim Violence Was the Issue « The Greenroom

They are defeating you, one step at a time, and you're snoozing through the whole thing.
 
You think your enemies are using "conventional interrogation" methods? What they will do is just put a bomb on a plane, slit your throat and video the act, blow up a bridge or any transportation system while you think you're taking some imaginary high road. They'll have you cowering in terror while you're trying to talk to them of your Constitution.

Here's what really happens to your Constitution when fear is on the line..

One of Terry Jones’ Jurors Confirms It: Muslim Violence Was the Issue « The Greenroom

They are defeating you, one step at a time, and you're snoozing through the whole thing.

That too is irrelevent. What they use does nto dictate what we use. we don't really want to be them, do we?

And fear works all kinds of ways. if we let fear make us more like them, we lose. They can't defeat us. we can only defeat ourselves.
 
You can inhale water and drown or have a heart attack in the shower..that doesn't make a shower torture. You can call it a quinceanera if you like, that doesn't make it one.

Don't be silly. I have merely shown that you are wrong in your assumptions. it happens to all of us. Those who do it call it torture. Our government has caleld it torture. While some want to pretend that itn isn't, the facts just don't support them. Sorry.
 
You think your enemies are using "conventional interrogation" methods? What they will do is just put a bomb on a plane, slit your throat and video the act, blow up a bridge or any transportation system while you think you're taking some imaginary high road. They'll have you cowering in terror while you're trying to talk to them of your Constitution.

Here's what really happens to your Constitution when fear is on the line..

One of Terry Jones’ Jurors Confirms It: Muslim Violence Was the Issue « The Greenroom

They are defeating you, one step at a time, and you're snoozing through the whole thing.
So true. Before long we'll be giving up our American ideals and acting like them--attacking civilians, disregarding the laws of our land and cultural heritage, and things like that. There will even be some among us who try to cajole us into behaving as they do, claiming that it is a more 'manly' way, that it is a more safe way.
 
That too is irrelevent. What they use does nto dictate what we use. we don't really want to be them, do we?

And fear works all kinds of ways. if we let fear make us more like them, we lose. They can't defeat us. we can only defeat ourselves.

You will be them. That's the part you just won't get.

You are defeating yourselves, and they know it. You've already abandoned a major part of your constitution and then try to make it look like a victory. Nobody is fooled by this.
 
So true. Before long we'll be giving up our American ideals and acting like them--attacking civilians, disregarding the laws of our land and cultural heritage, and things like that. There will even be some among us who try to cajole us into behaving as they do, claiming that it is a more 'manly' way, that it is a more safe way.

Your already giving up your "American ideals" as demonstrated in that jury decision, and the entire Terry Jones episode.

This hysterical claim that civilians will be attacked and laws disregarded is the way teenage girls would respond, not serious adults, and this claim clearly demonstrates your lack of faith in your fellow citizens, your courts and your constitution..

There is a time for rough men and there is a time for handwringing and it's important to know the when of it all..
 
I knew somebody like that. Even toy guns with the orange cap thingy's at the end. No doubt her boys did not have a childhood. :D

I'm against toy guns. They're dangerous. You need a real gun to actually defend yourself. :lol:
 
This hysterical claim that civilians will be attacked and laws disregarded is the way teenage girls would respond, not serious adults, and this claim clearly demonstrates your lack of faith in your fellow citizens, your courts and your constitution..
Because you missed it, I'll spell it out. I was actually describing to you and your reaction. You can characterize your reaction however you wish.
There is a time for rough men and there is a time for handwringing and it's important to know the when of it all..
As I already noted
There will even be some among us who try to cajole us into behaving as they do, claiming that it is a more 'manly' way, that it is a more safe way.
 
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