• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Osama Bin Laden is dead

mertex said:
Of course, the fact that you were water boarded 6 times is "unprovable" but we are supposed to take your word for it? Maybe your friends at a social gathering will take you at your word, but here on these Forums, you need to have some credible source backing your statements, otherwise they are just laughable. Especially, when we have links to show that CIA officers were unable to stand it for more than 14 seconds, and a right-wing radio talk show host had it done to prove, like you, that it was not a big deal and not torture only to tell the whole country the opposite?

Erich "Mancow" Muller, a Chicago-based conservative radio host, recently decided to silence critics of waterboarding once and for all. He would undergo the procedure himself, and then he would be able to confidently convince others that it is not, in fact, torture.

Or so he thought. Instead, Muller came out convinced.

"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow said. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back... It was instantaneous... and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
Mancow Waterboarded (VIDEO): Conservative Radio Host Say It's Torture





I'm sure there is, but if you want to be credible on these Forums, you might want to come up with facts to back up your fairy tales. I would much rather be boring and unpredictable then to be laughed at for making up la-la-land tales.
Click to expand...


I never said that is wasn't unpleasant....I said it causes no physical harm, therefore it's not torture.
 
mac said:
I never said that is wasn't unpleasant....I said it causes no physical harm, therefore it's not torture.
Click to expand...

So torture only involves physical harm?
 
mac said:
I never said that is wasn't unpleasant....I said it causes no physical harm, therefore it's not torture.
Click to expand...

What a strange way to qualify torture. So. What have you renamed "Mental Torture"?
 
Let me preface this by saying I have absolutely no idea what waterboarding is like as I haven't been waterboarded. All I know is what I've heard from various sources. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is waterboarding not essentially controlled drowning? I nearly drowned when I was younger, so I know what that feels like. It's horrible. I wouldn't just call it "unpleasant". I don't know about you, but I wouldn't put much faith into any kind of information gathered from this practice. I could see how that could damage someone psychologically. A person would probably want to say anything to get out of that procedure. That makes me question how effective it is. As to whether or not it's torture, that depends entirely on how a person defines torture.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
Let me preface this by saying I have absolutely no idea what waterboarding is like as I haven't been waterboarded. All I know is what I've heard from various sources. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is waterboarding not essentially controlled drowning? I nearly drowned when I was younger, so I know what that feels like. It's horrible. I wouldn't just call it "unpleasant". I don't know about you, but I wouldn't put much faith into any kind of information gathered from this practice. I could see how that could damage someone psychologically. A person would probably want to say anything to get out of that procedure. That makes me question how effective it is. As to whether or not it's torture, that depends entirely on how a person defines torture.
Click to expand...

No, what it does is make you feel like you are drowning without in anyway drowning you.
 
mac said:
No, what it does is make you feel like you are drowning without in anyway drowning you.
Click to expand...

Okay, and I know what that feels like. I can see how that would be pretty unbearable. Would that not make you question it's efficiency and the information gathered because of it?
 
Dr_Patrick said:
So torture only involves physical harm?
Click to expand...

No, there is psychological torture as well, that is torture that causes lasting damage to mental health, but waterboarding does not do this.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
Okay, and I know what that feels like. I can see how that would be pretty unbearable. Would that not make you question it's efficiency and the information gathered because of it?
Click to expand...

First let me ask you something....have you ever done something which scared the hell out of you? Skydive, rollercoaster, fast driving, etc?
 
mac said:
First let me ask you something....have you ever done something which scared the hell out of you? Skydive, rollercoaster, fast driving, etc?
Click to expand...

Not really. I'm not much of a thrill-seeker, though.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
Not really. I'm not much of a thrill-seeker, though.
Click to expand...

So, you've never done anything that scared the hell out of you but caused you no real harm?
 
mac said:
So, you've never done anything that scared the hell out of you but caused you no real harm?
Click to expand...

Oh come on. Waterboarding is more than just psychological. It's physical too. It may not cause harm, but feeling like you are drowning is very physical.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
Oh come on. Waterboarding is more than just psychological. It's physical too. It may not cause harm, but feeling like you are drowning is very physical.
Click to expand...

Will you answer the question?
 
mac said:
First let me ask you something....have you ever done something which scared the hell out of you? Skydive, rollercoaster, fast driving, etc?
Click to expand...

It's so absurd to compare waterboarding to skydiving. It's more comparable to rape. Repeatedly being made to feel as if you were drowning would clearly have long lasting psychological effects on a normal human being. My brother was very cruel and used to hold my head underwater, it was horrifying and I believe to this day it has an impact on my personality.

You just don't want to admit that you believe the ends justify the means. Paint it any way you want, but you're being dishonest. Skydiving? Seriously? That's pretty weak IMHO
 
mac said:
If it was stopped in 2006...and eit was possibly responsible for UBL's take down....then GWB is entirely to blame, right?
Click to expand...

No, he would be a criminal. when the courts rule you can't do, and you lie to the courts and congress saying it has stopped, that's criminal as far as I know.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
My answer to your question is pointless because I know exactly where you are going with it.
Click to expand...

So, avoid it rather than face it honestly. There's courage.
 
mac said:
So, avoid it rather than face it honestly. There's courage.
Click to expand...

You really want to turn this into a pissing contest? My answer has nothing to do with lacking courage. It's because it's pointless because your comparison is invalid. Clearly this discussion with you is pointless as well. Have fun with yourself.
 
Boo Radley said:
No, he would be a criminal. when the courts rule you can't do, and you lie to the courts and congress saying it has stopped, that's criminal as far as I know.
Click to expand...

The courts said what exactly?
 
Dr_Patrick said:
You really want to turn this into a pissing contest? My answer has nothing to do with lacking courage. It's because it's pointless because your comparison is invalid. Clearly this discussion with you is pointless as well. Have fun with yourself.
Click to expand...

lol, later.
 
mac said:
No, actually this comparison is what is absurd.
Click to expand...

Not really. Being tortured and being raped both result in psychological trauma that could affect the victim for the rest of their lives. Skydiving is an activity done by choice, and for fun, comparing it to waterboarding is ridiculous. You can't seriously believe what you're saying. Nobody would believe it.
 
mac said:
No, what it does is make you feel like you are drowning without in anyway drowning you.
Click to expand...

Not entirely true. You can swollow water and for all intents and purpose drown, just not die if they do it correctly.

However, our agreements and past disucssions not only recognize mental distress as torture, but has included water boarding in the definition. it saddens me that we are actually ahving this discussion today as if history doesn't exist at all.
 
Boo Radley said:
Not entirely true. You can swollow water and for all intents and purpose drown, just not die if they do it correctly.
Click to expand...

you don't drown from swallowing water....

However, our agreements and past disucssions not only recognize mental distress as torture, but has included water boarding in the definition. it saddens me that we are actually ahving this discussion today as if history doesn't exist at all.
Click to expand...

appeal to emotion, try again boo.
 
Mustachio said:
Not really. Being tortured and being raped both result in psychological trauma that could affect the victim for the rest of their lives. Skydiving is an activity done by choice, and for fun, comparing it to waterboarding is ridiculous. You can't seriously believe what you're saying. Nobody would believe it.
Click to expand...

I've done both and can compare them. They are similar in the feelings they create (of course, I have a minor fear of heights)
 
today: Administration Grows Frustrated As Conversation Shifts From Bin Laden To Waterboarding

Officials inside the Obama administration have grown discouraged by the abruptness with which the news over the killing of Osama bin Laden has turned into a debate over the efficacy of harsh interrogation techniques and torture.

Just days after the al Qaeda leader was killed in a compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, the political conversation has shifted from the implications of the assassination to questions of whether the waterboarding of valuable detainees was crucial in gathering intelligence on bin Laden's whereabouts.

Defenders of the interrogation technique raised the issue, earning write-ups in several high-profile publications, including The New York Times and Time magazine. It was also put forward in most bin Laden-related news interviews with Obama officials. The problem, those officials stress, is that questioning the effectiveness of waterboarding in the bin Laden case oversimplifies a complex issue to which there may not be any concrete answers.

"There is no possible way to know for sure," said one senior Obama administration official. "Even if waterboarding did produce something -- and that is debatable, the timeline seems very unclear -- it is impossible to say whether interrogation absent it would have produced the same thing. It might have. Lots of detainees provided [intelligence]."

White House spokesman Tommy Vietor was more directly dismissive. "I think this is a distraction from the broader picture, which is that this achievement was the result of years of painstaking work by our intelligence community that drew from multiple sources," he said. "It's impossible to know whether information obtained by EITs could have been obtained by other forms of interrogation."
Click to expand...

bob graham of florida, former senate intel chair, and carl levin of minnesota, current boss at armed services, go on in huffpo's account to dismiss the role of eit's

but i think graham's conclusion is fair:

Graham argues the key ingredient to finding bin Laden may not have been, necessarily, the interrogation methods used on detainees but rather how U.S. personnel were able to use the information they received.
Click to expand...

congratulations to the white house for leaving in place most of the anti terror tactics instituted by his predecessor, detention, gitmo, warrantless wiretapping of phone calls made to couriers...

america is grateful
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom