• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Osama Bin Laden is dead

mac said:
I've been waterbaorded...as has nearly everyone that's been through S.E.R.E.
Click to expand...

Right, and it's not just US troops that go through this type of training. Al Qaeda operatives do it, too, along w/many other terrorists, for obvious reasons.

And contrary to the propoganda of the warmongering right, waterboarding, along w/all other kinds of physical torture, do not work. When a normal person is tortured, he/she will say anything to stop the torture, true or otherwise, and even if the that person has been trained to resist torture, typically, there's no incentive for him/her to tell the truth if there's no conceivable way for the interrogator to ascertain the veracity of the information he/she reveals.

The story about the CIA obtaining valuable information from waterboarding detainees is just more mindless claptrap from the gummint. If the US gummint did obtain valuable intelligence from the detainees using this technique, then bin Laden would've been captured years ago, during the dumbya administration, almost immediately after waterboarding began, because those waterboarded detainees would've provided the information necessary to bring about his capture.

But that did not happen.
 
solletica said:
The story about the CIA obtaining valuable information from waterboarding detainees is just more mindless claptrap from the gummint.
Click to expand...

But your inside sources tell you different, huh?

Or are you just sharing your beliefs?
 
solletica said:
And contrary to the propoganda of the warmongering right, waterboarding, along w/all other kinds of physical torture, do not work.
Click to expand...
From what I have seen, it's not that it "doesn't work" so much as it's not as reliable or as useful as other methods.

solletica said:
The story about the CIA obtaining valuable information from waterboarding detainees is just more mindless claptrap from the gummint. If the US gummint did obtain valuable intelligence from the detainees using this technique, then bin Laden would've been captured years ago, during the dumbya administration, almost immediately after waterboarding began, because those waterboarded detainees would've provided the information necessary to bring about his capture.
But that did not happen.
Click to expand...
To me, it's not about whether we got info from these sorts of techniques, but whether or not those are the best choice.

I can get beer from a bottle using a hammer. It works. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea to get beer from a bottle with a hammer.
 
That's bull****. There is no timeline between receiving intelligence via torture and when we are able to use it to find the person we are after. If torture got the information after years and it was good info, then torture worked. To say that it didn't work fast enough so it didn't really work is one of the biggest piles of horse**** I've seen on this forum in a long time.

In fact if anything it means the torture wasn't harsh enough because this person held back info for a long time.
 
Last edited:
rumsfeld is right

according to the cia's ig report issued by doj on the monday preceding august 29, 2009, ksm was waterboarded not at gitmo but in "a secret cia prison in eastern europe"

and when he gave us the name of the courier who led us to the target, presumably around the time the 9-11 mastermind was conducting his "terrorist tutorials," ksm was, as rummy recounts, questioned using "normal interrogation approaches"

but this, according to the cia via doj, occurred only AFTER "his spirit was broken in the month after his capture"

before that, he was "an avowed and truculent enemy of the united states," when he "provided only a few intelligence reports," most of which were "outdated, inaccurate or incomplete"

he was truculent, he was eit'd, he came over, he became our "preeminent source"

it was actually al libi, also eit'd, who clued us in to one of the nom de guerre's proffered by ksm being the person who delivered to him, al libi, the message that he was to succeed ksm as operative head

and that missive, it was pretty clear, could only come from the target

"only bin laden would have given al libi that promotion, cia officials believed"

How a Detainee Became An Asset - washingtonpost.com

Phone Call by Kuwaiti Courier Led to Bin Laden - ABC News
 
Last edited:
StillBallin75 said:
Well, yes reading Amazed's posts kills my brain.

That being said, how is waterboarding different from testicles and fingernails?

This is the dictionary definition for torture:

Torture | Define Torture at Dictionary.com



I think that's a pretty fair definition, and in my opinion waterboarding can reasonably be included. If you think any different, why?
Click to expand...

waterbaording does not inflict actual pain.
 
mac said:
waterbaording does not inflict actual pain.
Click to expand...

How did it feel when you went through it?

Now I'm not trying to say that I know more about the subject than you, but here's what a little wiki search tells me:

Waterboarding can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and, if uninterrupted, death.[4] Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.[5]
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
solletica said:
Right, and it's not just US troops that go through this type of training. Al Qaeda operatives do it, too, along w/many other terrorists, for obvious reasons.

And contrary to the propoganda of the warmongering right, waterboarding, along w/all other kinds of physical torture, do not work. When a normal person is tortured, he/she will say anything to stop the torture, true or otherwise, and even if the that person has been trained to resist torture, typically, there's no incentive for him/her to tell the truth if there's no conceivable way for the interrogator to ascertain the veracity of the information he/she reveals.

The story about the CIA obtaining valuable information from waterboarding detainees is just more mindless claptrap from the gummint. If the US gummint did obtain valuable intelligence from the detainees using this technique, then bin Laden would've been captured years ago, during the dumbya administration, almost immediately after waterboarding began, because those waterboarded detainees would've provided the information necessary to bring about his capture.

But that did not happen.
Click to expand...

You think waterboarding began under GWB?
 
Jetboogieman said:
You...

Talking about someone being partisan?

Please.

I mean come on political discourse is political discourse, but it doesn't speak well to anyone who says another person is partisan, whilst at the same time calling that person "anti-American"...

Obama, and many people in the United States perhaps feel there is a different way of doing things. Obama has compromised with the other side, and he's done things he didn't want to do, because Obama isn't just the president of the people who agree with him, and the people who hate him.

HE IS the president of the United States. And yes perhaps he hasn't done the best job, but the fact is, I bet he loves his country just as much as you do, you just can't see it that way because your own partisan blinders are on.
Click to expand...

Obama claimed there was no red-America or blue-America but The United States of America. He said that... and he was called/sold by his propagandists as "post-partisan". Seems absolutely idiotic now doesn't it?

I am an admitted partisan, a recovered Commi-Lib. I do not pretend to be a moderate, progressive or centrist like so many Libs here... and their leaders Clinton and Obama.

I'm an honest broker... Obama hung with those that despise this country... Ayers... Wright... Khalidid... but Obama loves America? Is that why he wants to "change America fundamentally"?

He's a Marxist and anti-American... the two go hand in hand.

.
 
Last edited:
Zyphlin said:
Nevermind, got the link and viewed it on my phone.

And shocked, exactly as I said. This line that YOU quoted:

“I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."

Was never uttered once.

So again, Ryinea, I ask....please provide evidence that Bush EVER said that quote.
Click to expand...

Face palms my mistake that was the short version of the thing


http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:George_W._Bush









He does say it in the video around 2:40 something I have provided links and stuff to the actual quotes that was just a summery of the whole quote I beleive
 
Last edited:
zimmer said:
Obama claimed there was no red-America or blue-America but The United States of America. He said that... and he was called/sold by his propagandists as "post-partisan". Seems absolutely idiotic now doesn't it?

I am an admitted partisan, a recovered Commi-Lib. I do not pretend to be a moderate, progressive or centrist like so many Libs here... and their leaders Clinton and Obama.

I'm an honest broker... he hung with those that despise this country... but he loves it? Is that why he wants to "change America fundamentally"?

He's a Marxist and anti-American... the two go hand in hand.

.
Click to expand...

So basically, you're the conservative version of Noodle.
 
Also here is the link too the press conference in which he actually says it

Long Bush Flip-Flop List

Also I used many of the words all I could fine is the YouTube clip and a couple of list that say he is a big fat lie.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Don't think we have any "reformed/born-again liberals" around here.
Click to expand...

Not sure either I still trying to think back but nope can't think of any that I know of.... I do know a lot of Revisionist of history writers thought but not that many born again Liberals.
 
StillBallin75 said:
So basically, you're the conservative version of Noodle.
Click to expand...

I am basically a recovered Commi-Lib that hasn't seen fit to "re-rat", to steal a term from Churchill.

.
 
tessaesque said:
the men who provide the information on Osama's courier, which led to his death, were captured, detained, and questioned for that information during Bush's presidency.
Click to expand...

And yet, Bush made no attempt to pursue the matter and to get bin Laden. Which is why Bush deserves no credit for the kill. He gets credit for not caring, for failing to deliver, and that's about it.
 
gekaap said:
And yet, Bush made no attempt to pursue the matter and to get bin Laden.
Click to expand...
Hogwash.
I seriously doubt that the info laid dormant waiting on Obama to revive it.

Also, I suspect that these sorts of things take time. There's mountains of evidence to wade through--who know how much will turn out to be false--to find what's useful.

But, if you have some evidence that the Bush Admin sat on this info somehow, rather than let the Intelligence Community do their job, please share it.
 
gekaap said:
And yet, Bush made no attempt to pursue the matter and to get bin Laden. Which is why Bush deserves no credit for the kill. He gets credit for not caring, for failing to deliver, and that's about it.
Click to expand...

It's amazing how the right wing fails to recognize this basic fact: if he had the intelligence, why didn't act?

There are only two possible explanations:

1) He did not have sufficient intelligence on OBL's whereabouts, because, in fact, the "enhanced interrogation techniques" failed to live up to what he was told.

2) KSM and the other terrorists did break and tell all, but bush ignored it and just sat there.

Take your pick :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom