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Osama Bin Laden is dead

Ever since bin Laden escaped in Afghanistan's Tora Bora mountain region in 2001 after Al-Qaeda's deadly September 11 strikes, his trail had gone largely cold as he stayed hidden and avoided telephone calls that US spies could trace.

But senior officials said that they had a breakthrough last September, when they managed to link two couriers used by bin Laden to contact the outside world to a compound in the leafy garrison city near Islamabad.

The New York Times meanwhile reported that two Pakistani agents working for the CIA had earlier managed to identify one of the couriers in Peshawar, allowing US intelligence to trail him all the way to the Abbottabad site.

That breakthrough in turn was made possible years earlier, by information wrung out of high-level Al-Qaeda operatives about the identify of the courier under harsh CIA interrogations, the paper said.
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Daily Nation:*- World*|How US spies found bin Laden's hideout


"Torture" FTW
 
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Objective Voice said:
I'm It took over 8 years from that time to this before someone within government to finally get a clue and simply follow the couriers. (My wife and I had been saying it for years considering that's how he's been getting videos to Al Jazeera all these years.)
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Holy Smokes, you're right. Why do we even bother with an intelligence community, we could just have Objective Voice and his wife do it. Obviously all we needed to do is walk out somewhere and go "whose the courier for Osama" and just follow them. Seriously, sorry for the sarcasm but I sat flabbergasted reading your post. I understand your sentiment man but your words just shows the absolute lack of familairity with the concept of intelligence gathering and how difficult something like that is. Life isn't like a movie.

From everything I've heard intelligence analysists that have talked about how this have gone down, this has been an intel gathering exercise of 4 to 6 years, gather from multiple interrogations and intelligence efforts followed by observation and survelliance before it even got to the point where scenarios can be created, authorized, practiced, and then the actual authorization for action to occur. While the whole thing may've taken 40 minutes the operation in reality was likely a half decade or more in the making. We're acting with military lives, in a soverign foreign country, in the middle of a war that PR is important in, where intel is at a premium. The last thing anyone from the lowest man on the chain up to the President wants to do is to go off bad information, or worse, go off partial information too early and thus ruin an entire string of intelligence due to over eagerness and lack of patience.

A pseudonym or alias starts to show up in a few different interrogations. Perhaps some intelligence information gathered on the ground points to it as well. If the information seems legit they may run it past a high level detainee to see if there's outright denial which would be unrealistic or if they'll spill the beans, trying to get some feel for the legitimacy of the information. Once the information seems significantly legitimate they'll start attempting to match the alias or pseudonym to an actual family name or person. To then attempt to track down that person to watch and see what he does and where he goes, further verifying it. Then comes intelligence gathering of what location may be the point in which we think is important and once determining that doing significant survelliance of that location to learn all that is possible about it. Then comes time to create the various plans of action that will need to be submitted for decision. And that's just to start AND that's the simple possability for one courier direct to Obama. Add to those steps significantly if they are acting intelligently with a system or network of people where one goes to one goes to another goes to Obama, where its more likely we find out the name of the low man on the pole and then having to start tracking up.

While it seems simple to go "find the courier" its likely kind of like saying Brain Surgery is cutting into someones head. It sounds simple, its really not.

This success goes first and foremost to the Intelligence Community and the Military that did the majority of the work in finding this out, prepping it, and executing it. Props go to Obama for pulling the trigger and giving the green light, as well to Bush for laying the groundwork for such intelligence to be done and function by allowing for more sharing and interplay between the community. Both Presidents finger prints are on this, but your people on the podium in place one, two, and three should all be our Intelligence and military men and women.
 
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So, was Bush right in "torturing" someone to get bin Laden?

Did torture work?!


I've been saying for years, torture for verifiable information works but torture for confession does not.
 
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ecofarm said:
So, was Bush right in "torturing" someone to get bin Laden?

Did torture work?!


I've been saying for years, torture for information works but torture for confession does not.
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well, if bush's torture worked, clearly we would have had osama long ago. doesn't matter now, though, he's dead and although this is symbolic, it's good for america.
 
The waterboarding (of only three terrorists) lead directly to this event, and made it possible.


Deal with it.
 
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danarhea said:
According to news reports, the intel that gave us bin Laden's possible position was aquired in 2010. Bush was already out of office.
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Only half the story Dana. Actions such as what happened on Sunday do not come about because one guy said one thing and that's it. What intel came before that had them thinking this direction that KSM simply cooberated enough to make it look legitimate? Did he just throw the info out, or was there spurring in that direction by interrogators and if there was, how exactly did they get that information to know to go that route? When hearing people, such as retired CIA analysists, speak rather than reporters all indications I keep hearing is that this was likely based off a long string of intelligence dating back multiple years that begins to weave itself into a clear picture. KSM's statements provided a vital stitch to that tapestry, but it was not the first...nor the last...that allowed it to go. For example, your story itself references agents mentioning information gathering regarding the intelligence concerning this courier as far back as 2004....7 years ago.

Also, while waterboarding did not lead directly to him revealing this information that does not mean that it was not a contributing factor. If the water boarding is what played into the "breaking" of KSM as some have suggested that turned him into a more willing asset, then information that comes after it is in part borne from that even if its was not directly use prior to it. To give an analogy (Albeit likely somewhat poor), if you have a girlfriend cheat on you multiple times 4 years ago you may be less apt to trust your current girlfriend. She didn't necessarily do something to cause that distrust, but rather something from past experiences with girlfriends changed your natural outlook and proclivity to a certain nature. In this case, there's no evidence that the actions taken upon KSM that "broke" him and "turned" him weren't still playing their effects some time later that resulted in him giving information that he wouldn't have otherwise given.

Did waterboarding cause this to happen? Impossible to tell. We don't know who else was subjected to it prior to KSM's statement that KSM's comments possibly just cooberated. We don't know what affect it had on KSM in general being more willing to talk. But we do know that the intelligence community functioned together on this, something formerly extremely difficult to do, and that the initial following of this string which from your own story seems to suggest started as early of 2004 began under George Bush.

Credit to Obama shouldn't be taken away for having the guts to give the go ahead on something that, when it comes to intelligence, is almost never a sure thing and could put Americans at risk. And for pushing it head strongly once we had enough concrete evidence to really run with. But credit should not be taken from Bush and what he did to allow for this to occur and to get the ball rolling, let alone the ridiculous attempts to suggest the opposite...that Bush actually acted against this from happening as some have been suggesting.
 
ecofarm said:
The waterboarding (of only three terrorists) lead directly to this event, and made it possible.


Deal with it.
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It's almost pointless. Even when a media source provides an unbiased time line of all the events involved in getting this guy anything prior to 2009 doesn't matter to some. Just like nothing prior to 2001 matters to those who would blame Bush for 9/11. Selective history isn't truth, but every political side does it, so other than being utterly frustrated by it, there isn't much we can do..ya know?
 
What's this then:


That breakthrough in turn was made possible years earlier, by information wrung out of high-level Al-Qaeda operatives about the identify of the courier under harsh CIA interrogations, the paper said.
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ecofarm said:
The waterboarding lead directly to this event, and made it possible.


Deal with it.
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ALSO some of it
Oh please when in 2007 was it made if Obama?



Also To Tess

I doubt the information came from 2007 he wasn't even wanting to fine the person in question from the Youtube video I posted. All the conservatives are trying to spin it in too something Bush did was actually lead to this which is bull****. His information sucked and the fact that he said he was in some cave somewhere which wasn't true in first place.

I really highly doubt that this man was even looking for him in the first place Also below is a clip from the Young Turks show he respecify said my thoughts in this as well. Bush had EIGHT freaking Years to get Osama Bin Laden and he didn't get him in the first place so why should I beleive he was looking for him and that Torturing actually worked in getting him. .


 
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ecofarm said:
The waterboarding (of only three terrorists) lead directly to this event, and made it possible.


Deal with it.
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i had no idea. what have i missed on this story? my daughter got married sunday, so i haven't had time to breathe. did obama have terrorists waterboarded? btw, you're quite rude.
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
Oh please when in 2007 was it made if Obama? I doubt the information came from 2007 he wasn't even wanting to fine the person in question from the Youtube video I posted. All the conservatives are trying to spin it in too something Bush did was actually lead to this which is bull****. His in tell sucked and the fact that he said he was in some cave somewhere which wasn't true in first place. I really highly doubt that this man was even looking for him in the first place Also below is a clip from the Young Turks show he respecify said my thoughts in this as well. Bush had EIGHT freaking Years to get Osama Bin Laden and he didn't get him in the first place.


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If you're the president of the united states and you even have an inkling as to where Osama is, are you going to say anything anywhere near the media, a microphone, or somebody outside of your inner circle that may somehow get back to the man you're hunting? Neither Bush NOR Obama would be dumb enough to speak off-the-cuff and say, "Oh yeah, we think he's sitting at this compound at the intersection of "oh sh*t" and "they're gonna get me" and we'll be going in on May 1st." It's a ridiculous argument, I'm sorry.
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
Also G. W. Bush said this two times to the same question too two other people. Quite saying that his information was any good in the first place. Rolls Eyes Also here is the Sundays times article Donald Rumsfeld blamed for failing to kill cornered Osama bin Laden - Times Online
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Please provide a link to the quote you attribute to George Bush. Because so far no one has been able to provide a quote of him saying it other than linking to liberal blogs or websites that say he stated it...but give absolutely no reference to verify it other than a random date.
 
tessaesque said:
If you're the president of the united states and you eve
n have an inkling as to where Osama is, are you going to say anything anywhere near the media, a microphone, or somebody outside of your inner circle that may somehow get back to the man you're hunting? Neither Bush NOR Obama would be dumb enough to speak off-the-cuff and say, "Oh yeah, we think he's sitting at this compound at the intersection of "oh sh*t" and "they're gonna get me" and we'll be going in on May 1st." It's a ridiculous argument, I'm sorry.
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Sorry, I doubt the Republicans even thought I' m just using the brain god gave me. Also then why did Rumsfeld issue a don't peruse order then during the Tora Bora incident?
 
Zyphlin said:
Please provide a link to the quote you attribute to George Bush. Because so far no one has been able to provide a quote of him saying it other than linking to liberal blogs or websites that say he stated it...but give absolutely no reference to verify it other than a random date.
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Today 09:25 AM #613
Zyphlin Oh please I gave you a link thank you very much in the video to the reporter.



This is the long version thought he saying it at about 1:28 minuets in. I don't post to liberal blogs thank you I posted a YouTube video of it for your enjoyment.
 
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US Congressman Peter King today claimed key information that led to the death of terror leader Osama bin Laden came as a result of the controversial interrogation technique called waterboarding...

Appearing on FOX News Channel's O'Reilly Factor today, Mr King, the Chairman of the Committee on Homeland Security, told host Bill O'Reilly "we obtained that information [about the courier] through waterboarding".

"So for those who say that waterboarding doesn't work ... we got vital information which directly led us to bin Laden," he said.

"It came from an overseas prison where Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was interrogated and waterboarding was used. KSM gave us the first lead."
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Read more: Peter King claims key bin Laden information came through waterboarding | News.com.au
 
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RyrineaHaruno said:
Sorry, I doubt the Republicans even thought I' m just using the brain god gave me. Also then why did Rumsfeld issue a don't peruse order then during the Tora Bora incident?
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I don't know. I'm not Rumsfled or any member of the intelligence community that would have any access to this information. I don't make assumptions about things I know very little about, if I can avoid it. Outside of common sense, which can only go so far, very little can be assumed of what happened behind closed doors, under "top secret" classification.

That applies to all presidencies.
 
Needing to view it on my phone, can't view a video at work. Could you give me the link by any chance and I'll watch. Because I know I've watched one video before someone claimed that quote was in, and not once did this line “I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." ever come out of Bush's mouth. I'm hoping perhaps yours actually does have it and would like to watch to see.
 
A kudos to the media for squelching the stories of the CIA captured in Pakistan after he killed two people there. Obama told the media to back off, and they did. He obviously was involved in tracking bin Laden's courier.

I do wonder if Bush would have been afforded the same consideration.
 
Nevermind, got the link and viewed it on my phone.

And shocked, exactly as I said. This line that YOU quoted:

“I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."

Was never uttered once.

So again, Ryinea, I ask....please provide evidence that Bush EVER said that quote.
 
wapo, august 29, 2009:

How a Detainee Became An Asset - washingtonpost.com

After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials." In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture. Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."

These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques. "KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete," according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA's then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department. The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.

One former U.S. official with detailed knowledge of how the interrogations were carried out said Mohammed, like several other detainees, seemed to have decided that it was okay to stop resisting after he had endured a certain amount of pressure. "Once the harsher techniques were used on [detainees], they could be viewed as having done their duty to Islam or their cause, and their religious principles would ask no more of them," said the former official, who requested anonymity because the events are still classified. "After that point, they became compliant. Obviously, there was also an interest in being able to later say, 'I was tortured into cooperating.'" Mohammed described plans to strike targets in Saudi Arabia, East Asia and the United States after the Sept. 11 attacks, including using a network of Pakistanis "to target gas stations, railroad tracks, and the Brooklyn bridge in New York." Cross-referencing material from different detainees, and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the CIA and FBI went on to round up operatives both in the United States and abroad. "Detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of who we had never heard of before -- that al-Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations," according to the CIA summary.
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yesterday, abc reports: the courier that led us to ubl was one of the individuals first made known to us by ksm in the period after he received eit's, during one of what us intel officers quoted by wapo above called the 9-11 mastermind's "terrorist tutorials"

this info was uncovered in the time when ksm became langley's "preeminent source on al qaeda," that is, when ksm "cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent"

ksm, abc advises, first provided langley with the identity, only a nickname

it was al libi who gave it away that this person, one of many people named by ksm, was a courier who, if he were followed, might lead us to the target

abc, yesterday:

Phone Call by Kuwaiti Courier Led to Bin Laden - ABC News

In a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe years ago, al-Qaida's No. 3 leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, gave authorities the nicknames of several of bin Laden's couriers, four former U.S. intelligence officials said. Those names were among thousands of leads the CIA was pursuing.

One man became a particular interest for the agency when another detainee, Abu Faraj al-Libi, told interrogators that when he was promoted to succeed Mohammed as al-Qaida's operational leader he received the word through a courier. Only bin Laden would have given al-Libi that promotion, CIA officials believed.

If they could find that courier, they'd find bin Laden.

The revelation that intelligence gleaned from the CIA's so-called black sites helped kill bin Laden was seen as vindication for many intelligence officials who have been repeatedly investigated and criticized for their involvement in a program that involved the harshest interrogation methods in U.S. history.

"We got beat up for it, but those efforts led to this great day," said Marty Martin, a retired CIA officer who for years led the hunt for bin Laden.

Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.
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either way, can anyone deny the president's security adviser?

Said Brennan: "The president had to evaluate the strength of that information, and then made what I believe was one of the most gutsiest calls of any president in recent memory."
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a great day for america!

the nation is gratefully indebted to all who serve us and made this happen
 
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AndrewC23 said:
I am sober unfortunately and how do you know when the war in Afghanistan is going to end are you the great Nostradamus? Can you predict the future?
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When did I try to do that?
 
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