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Afghan officer opens fire, kills 9 Americans

SheWolf said:
If journalists were better at their job, then this wouldn't have happened... :lamo

I am sorry, but that's a bad defense. The guy shouldn't burn holy books of any religion. He is a religious leader... he should pray for the troops, not put them in danger, and he show everybody in his community the kindness and love of Christ equally.
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Try arguing against arguments I've actually made.

Seems like whenever I interact w/ you on this site you immediately start aguing with strawmen.
 
StillBallin75 said:
What I don't get is why Pastor Jones burned the Koran not once, but twice. He had said after the first time that the Koran had been judged and that he wouldn't do it again. Then a few months later he went and did it again.
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First of all, if he were an honest religious leader, he wouldn't put himself in the position to judge the Quran... He is not god. Let god do the judging and do not place yourself above man (and woman), as all Abrahamic religions say.
 
other said:
so what's your standard then? how exactly do you know everything that contributed. by that ridiculous argument, you might as well hold islam accountable as well.

I don't accept that approach.
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There are religious leaders on both sides playing a role in these issues... We shouldn't excuse one kind of leader and not the other.
 
StillBallin75 said:
What I don't get is why Pastor Jones burned the Koran not once, but twice. He had said after the first time that the Koran had been judged and that he wouldn't do it again. Then a few months later he went and did it again.
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he's just an attention whore.

best way to get rid of him his to ignore him.
 
SheWolf said:
There are religious leaders on both sides playing a role in these issues... We shouldn't excuse one kind of leader and not the other.
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Were not really talking about who to excuse, but who to hold accountable for the killings. The men who pulled the trigger are accountable -- to go further looking to place responsibility for the act turns this into a witch-hunt -- especially considering the fact that he didn't actually violate the law.

So here's where I stand: In my personal opinion, the pastor's a reckless idiot, but he didn't do anything illegal and is in no way legally responsible for killings across the world. At least not in this case. I think he does bear moral/ethical responsibility to a certain extent -- he'll pay for it eventually.
 
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other said:
Were not really talking about who to excuse, but who to hold accountable for the killings. The men who pulled the trigger are accountable -- to go further looking to place responsibility for the act turns this into a witch-hunt -- especially considering the fact that he didn't actually violate the law.

So here's where I stand: In my personal opinion, the pastor's a reckless idiot, but he didn't do anything illegal and is in no way legally responsible for killings across the world. At least not in this case. I think he does bear moral/ethical responsibility to a certain extent -- he'll pay for it eventually.
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He isn't legally responsible, however, the murders have said his actions are why they are killing people...
 
StillBallin75 said:
I don't support legislation banning whatever Pastor Jones did. But it clearly wasn't a good idea and didn't help.
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This please.

Anyway, I was the one who posted the other version of the story, if anyone was wondering.
 
repeter said:
Afghan officer opens fire, kills 9 Americans

A different version of this story was posted, but I want to post this for some information it provides, that I hadn't heard before.



This part made my blood boil. Pastor Jones has American blood on his hands. Now, I don't want to give any more attention to that d**k, but the point I want to drive home is that his speech directly caused the death of 2 American servicemen.
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Pastor Jones did not kill those people. Let's not be stupid and blame an idiot who merely exercised his rights with the innane and insane actions of ****tard terrorists. No freedom for fear.
 
SheWolf said:
He isn't legally responsible, however, the murders have said his actions are why they are killing people...
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So people are responsible for the actions of mad men? Were the Jews partially responsible for Hitler's actions against them because they were Jews and they knew he hated them? Insane people are insane, there's no point in bowing to them; it will only get worse.
 
SheWolf said:
He isn't legally responsible, however, the murders have said his actions are why they are killing people...
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Yeah, so what about it?

Murderers might say a lot of things, that doesn't mean they can transfer the responsibility for what they've done to anybody else -- not without actual proof of direct involvement, anyway.

If we do anything to the pastor over this now we'd just be giving this murderer what he wants. We'd be reacting to his atrocity. He lashed out and blamed the pastor to make it seem like his actions were somehow justifiable. They aren't.
 
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MaggieD said:
Don't like giving up what you perceive as your right to free speech? Feel free to pick up a rifle and join the other American soldiers who are giving their lives and limbs protecting your right to be an asshole.
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Did. Volunteered during war, infantry beyond the front line.

And I want to be an asshole. Better the crazies show themselves now than later (after they've raised crazy kids). Bring 'em on.


SheWolf said:
He isn't legally responsible, however, the murders have said his actions are why they are killing people...
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Please tell me that you no longer believe this has any validity. If you do not cease and desist, I will be forced to kill an innocent bug because of SheWolf. I normally don't kill bugs, and I know it is wrong but the above statement is intolerable.
 
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SheWolf said:
This guy makes the Westboro Baptist Church look like John Lennon
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Nah...they are the same kind of turd. The difference is wih the target audience. The Westboro 'church' people know that Americans arent going to respond violently.
 
Ikari said:
So people are responsible for the actions of mad men? Were the Jews partially responsible for Hitler's actions against them because they were Jews and they knew he hated them? Insane people are insane, there's no point in bowing to them; it will only get worse.
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1. You Godwinned yourself.
2. You are arguing that we are incapable of altering people's behaviour and altering environments that cause behaviour, which has been demonstrated by social scientists be a flawed notion.
 
other said:
Yeah, so what about it?

Murderers might say a lot of things, that doesn't mean they can transfer the responsibility for what they've done to anybody else -- not without actual proof of direct involvement, anyway.

If we do anything to the pastor over this now we'd just be giving this murderer what he wants. We'd be reacting to his atrocity. He lashed out and blamed the pastor to make it seem like his actions were somehow justifiable. They aren't.
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The pastor's actions are not justifiable... that's like justifying the behavior the Westboro Church. The pastor is not guilty of murder, the pastor is guilty of baiting insane, murderous people to murder. He was warned by the Pentagon and by the terrorists themselves... ignorance is not an excuse. He did what he did, and he didn't give a **** about the safety of the troops or anybody else.
 
VanceMack said:
Nah...they are the same kind of turd. The difference is wih the target audience. The Westboro 'church' people know that Americans arent going to respond violently.
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Right... this asshole pastor knew the risk, he knew there would be a violent response and that is what he is accountable for. He essentially put other people's lives at risk. He is a ****ing coward.
 
SheWolf said:
The pastor's actions are not justifiable... that's like justifying the behavior the Westboro Church.
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who the hell said the pastor's actions were justifiable? Notice I said that any action against the pastor now might justify the murderer's actions (in his own, or other radicals', eyes).

The pastor is not guilty of murder, the pastor is guilty of baiting insane, murderous people to murder.
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What law did the pastor break?

He was warned by the Pentagon and by the terrorists themselves... ignorance is not an excuse. He did what he did, and he didn't give a **** about the safety of the troops or anybody else.
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Yeah, he's a piece of ****, but there's no law against that.
 
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SheWolf said:
1. You Godwinned yourself.
2. You are arguing that we are incapable of altering people's behaviour and altering environments that cause behaviour, which has been demonstrated by social scientists be a flawed notion.
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1) Damned it!
2) I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that people make up their own minds and choose their own actions. The Pastor did not MAKE those men over there kill Americans. First off, we're fighting a war so that put the Americans there in the first place. Second off, we're fighting a hostile ideology which puts us at odds with many of the people over there. Third off, the fringe group of these hostile people are insane. Fourth...off? he burned a Koran, he did not hold a gun to the people's head to make them murder, he did not endorse the murder in the least, he did not pay for them to murder someone, in short he did not directly make them do anything.

The people at fault are the people who pull the trigger. Their brains sent the signal to their hands to pull the trigger. The Pastor cannot affect that. This was not an immediate reaction like yelling fire in a crowded theater. These people had time to think and plan about what they were doing. They are, therefore, completely accountable for the actions being taken. I'm not going to curtail our rights here because of some dumbass terrorists half the world away. That's how they win. They can all go choke on bacon for all I care.
 
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other said:
who the hell said the pastor's actions were justifiable? Notice I said that any action against the pastor now might justify the murderer's actions (in his own, or other radicals', eyes).



What law did the pastor break?



Yeah, he's a piece of ****, but there's no law against that.
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I am not mistaken that there is a law against it, however, I am claiming he is entirely innocent either
 
SheWolf said:
I am not mistaken that there is a law against it, however, I am claiming he is entirely innocent either
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I can't quite make out what you're saying here...
 
repeter said:
Afghan officer opens fire, kills 9 Americans
A different version of this story was posted, but I want to post this for some information it provides, that I hadn't heard before.
This part made my blood boil. Pastor Jones has American blood on his hands. Now, I don't want to give any more attention to that d**k, but the point I want to drive home is that his speech directly caused the death of 2 American servicemen.
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Fighting for Muslims is a fundamentally BAD idea, regardless of circumstances.
 
Ikari said:
1) Damned it!
2) I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that people make up their own minds and choose their own actions.
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People don't make choices independent of influence.

This pastor was influence to burn the Quran because of his view of Islam and people in the Middle East.

The people who murdered men and women in the ME, were influenced by the pastor burning the Quran and said so.



The Pastor did not MAKE those men over there kill Americans.
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The pastor did not make them... He did not force them to kill anybody.

The pastor was not forced or made to burn the Quran either.

Everybody is accountant for their own action...

First off, we're fighting a war so that put the Americans there in the first place.
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And I am arguing that each event is caused by a preceding even (causality), not free will. You seem to be going back forth... it's free will, it's causality.

We were attacked on 9/11, so now we are fighting a war. A lot of people in America have intolerant views of Islam, because we were attacked by them on 9/11 (causation)... Some people here even hate Islam and think it's just a hate filled religion, therefore they are caused to hate Islam in return (causation).

This event influenced the pastor to burn the Quran... and because of the chain of events and causation in the ME, many people there hate America.

Honestly, the results of this pastor's actions were not unpredictable. We have seen this play out before in Denmark over cartoons and Draw Muhammad Day.

The people who murdered the men in women did not make that choice free of influence, or suddenly feel like killing people for no reason. This was not a random killing. Likewise the pastor did not make his choice free of influence... that's all I am saying. This is not innocent people, acting freely on free will and doing **** randomly without cause. The pastor cannot honestly be that ignorant. The pastor knew who would be pissed off, and he had a reason to burn the Quran.

Second off, we're fighting a hostile ideology which puts us at odds with many of the people over there. Third off, the fringe group of these hostile people are insane. Fourth...off? he burned a Koran, he did not hold a gun to the people's head to make them murder, he did not endorse the murder in the least, he did not pay for them to murder someone, in short he did not directly make them do anything.
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And nobody held a gun to his head and forced him to burn the Quran... Nobody was forced in this situation to do anything. Each party is accountable for their role in the sequence of events.

The people at fault are the people who pull the trigger. Their brains sent the signal to their hands to pull the trigger.
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I never said anybody else pulled the trigger.

The Pastor cannot affect that.
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The pastor can affect this, had he not burned a Quran. He was warned by the Pentagon... He was warned by the murderers and terrorists themselves. He had the ability to decide not set a Quran on fire, as much as the murderers had the ability to not pay him any attention and to not kill people.

If he has any grasp of human interaction, he would know his actions would incite anger not handshaking and parades.

This was not an immediate reaction like yelling fire in a crowded theater. These people had time to think and plan about what they were doing. They are, therefore, completely accountable for the actions being taken. I'm not going to curtail our rights here because of some dumbass terrorists half the world away. That's how they win. They can all go choke on bacon for all I care.
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They have won... They can take this story and say, "hey look, America does hate us... Hey look, they burn our holy book, they hate Islam. Defend Islam."

I never said he was responsible for pulling the trigger...
 
other said:
I can't quite make out what you're saying here...
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There is no law against him... but he is still accountable for playing into the terrorists and inciting them
 
SheWolf said:
There is no law against him... but he is still accountable for playing into the terrorists and inciting them
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Thanks for clarifying.

That's what you've been saying all along... so I'll reiterate one of my earlier points:

What about the media? If you hold the pastor accountable for inciting the murder, shouldn't the news stations that made the story international -- effectively supplying it to the terrorists-- also be held to the same standard? You can't argue that the issue of some nobody preacher burning a book in some swamp was a pressing issue that needed international attention during a time of war. They, like the preacher himself, were aware of the implications... so, while the preacher did the deed, the media made damn sure everyone, including that afghani ****bag, knew about it.

If the pastor would've refrained from burning the book, the murderer couldn't point at him and say "he made me do it."

Likewise, If the pastor would have simply been ignored, as he deserves, the murderer couldn't point at him and say "he made me do it."
 
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other said:
Thanks for clarifying.

That's what you've been saying all along... so I'll reiterate one of my earlier points:

What about the media? If you hold the pastor accountable for inciting the murder, shouldn't the news stations that made the story international -- effectively supplying it to the terrorists-- also be held to the same standard? You can't argue that the issue of some nobody preacher burning a book in some swamp was a pressing issue that needed international attention during a time of war. They, like the preacher himself, were aware of the implications... so, while the preacher did the deed, the media made damn sure everyone, including that afghani ****bag, knew about it.

If the pastor would've refrained from burning the book, the murderer couldn't point at him and say "he made me do it."

Likewise, If the pastor would have simply been ignored, as he deserves, the murderer couldn't point at him and say "he made me do it."
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Like I said above... there is a large chain of events playing role in this outcome... The media is one of them... This man was caused desire to burn the Quran as a result of influences in the chain of events, and his actions have a reaction. There are a lot of things playing a role in the chain of events. The media is always responsible for their reporting on both ends... making the pastor feel justified in hating Islam, and broadcasting his actions to an anti American and angry sect of Muslims.
 
SheWolf said:
Like I said above... there is a large chain of events playing role in this outcome... The media is one of them... This man was caused desire to burn the Quran as a result of influences in the chain of events, and his actions have a reaction. There are a lot of things playing a role in the chain of events. The media is always responsible for their reporting on both ends... making the pastor feel justified in hating Islam, and broadcasting his actions to an anti American and angry sect of Muslims.
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So what do you think should happen to this preacher and the media concerning their supposed accountability in the murders in Afganistan?
 
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