Liberals Try to Rekindle Town Hall Fury That Inflamed Health Care Debate Read more:

Re: Liberals Try to Rekindle Town Hall Fury That Inflamed Health Care Debate Read mo

Yes, this is definitely a fair and balanced characterization of what is happening by Fox News!

Re: Liberals Try to Rekindle Town Hall Fury That Inflamed Health Care Debate Read mo

VanceMack said:

Thats horse****. What makes it the 'rich versus poor' is politicians and groups that know all they have to do is bang their little tin drums and their mindless pathetic little puppets will repeat it and make it all that matters. We saw it during the last budget debate and we see it with the pending budget debate. We will see it in the 2012 elections. We see it every day on this site.

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Ok, so what is your grand plan for reducing a trainwreck national debt if not cutting entitlement programs (and everything else as well)?


....and please, do try an answer that doesn't involve raising the taxes on those of us that pay them.

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American said:

I read this, it's not unexpected. They want everyone to think that Republicans kill puppies, old people and children.

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You mean like when the democrats wanted to kill off all of our elderly with "death panels." Psst, your hypocrisy is showing.

Re: Liberals Try to Rekindle Town Hall Fury That Inflamed Health Care Debate Read mo

tessaesque said:

Historically we haven't seen a 1/4th increase in the total national debt over 3 years...well...at any point in time, really. In fact, though Bush is the worst in comparison, it took 8 years for the national debt to increase 26% under Bush, a time during which we were funding two wars and increasing spending on intelligence and border security, two areas which desperately needed help after 9/11 (not that I'm advocating funding to solve problems, but it's what happened, so..).

So over the course of 8 years (assuming there is a second term), should we expect the pattern to continue? Will we see a 50% increase in the national debt? 30%? Some of us were shouting about spending before Bush left office (some of us were too young to understand spending when Clinton was in office). Just because the elected officials are finally doing their jobs (however half-arsed), doesn't mean those electing them weren't fighting for it for some time.

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As the situation won't be the same, there's little reason to expect the same. Much like Reagan, Obama sought to spend us out of the recession. You might also note that Ryan voted for much of that spending as well. And that bush was doing a good bit up the spending on this before Obama was even elected.

And this is the point. Objection is selective. Republicans when in office argued that deficit spending was OK. When not in power, it's not OK. If you don't see this, you will either be shocked once and if they get back in, or perhaps you'll accept it easier with them in charge. As none of this is new, I see nothing that has changed enough for either party to stop doing what they do.

Re: Liberals Try to Rekindle Town Hall Fury That Inflamed Health Care Debate Read mo

Boo Radley said:

As the situation won't be the same, there's little reason to expect the same. Much like Reagan, Obama sought to spend us out of the recession. You might also note that Ryan voted for much of that spending as well. And that bush was doing a good bit up the spending on this before Obama was even elected.

And this is the point. Objection is selective. Republicans when in office argued that deficit spending was OK. When not in power, it's not OK. If you don't see this, you will either be shocked once and if they get back in, or perhaps you'll accept it easier with them in charge. As none of this is new, I see nothing that has changed enough for either party to stop doing what they do.

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I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm blaming Obama or praising Bush or whatever it is you think I'm doing. I threw Bush under the bus too, with his 26% increase in debt (as well as the legislature, which was controlled both by republicans and then by democrats during his term as president). What I'm saying is, we've already seen a huge jump and the first term isn't over yet. We're creating budget and spending plans that do next to nothing for another 10 years to curb spending or elimnate debt. There are some that are trying but nobody is succeeding, and that's the problem. To say that spending won't continue at an astronomical level is pretty naive, IMO.

Re: Liberals Try to Rekindle Town Hall Fury That Inflamed Health Care Debate Read mo

tessaesque said:

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm blaming Obama or praising Bush or whatever it is you think I'm doing. I threw Bush under the bus too, with his 26% increase in debt (as well as the legislature, which was controlled both by republicans and then by democrats during his term as president). What I'm saying is, we've already seen a huge jump and the first term isn't over yet. We're creating budget and spending plans that do next to nothing for another 10 years to curb spending or elimnate debt. There are some that are trying but nobody is succeeding, and that's the problem. To say that spending won't continue at an astronomical level is pretty naive, IMO.

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You responded to me arguing republicans will forget this concern with the debt once they are elected. And argued it is worse under Obama. I don't believe this. I believe that the uproar is raised because of his party and not because of his actions (especially from conservatives and the tea party).

And I don't really believe anyone of note is really trying. The only effort is to change where the money is spend and not to end spending.

Re: Liberals Try to Rekindle Town Hall Fury That Inflamed Health Care Debate Read mo

m4rgery said:

Ok, so what is your grand plan for reducing a trainwreck national debt if not cutting entitlement programs (and everything else as well)?


....and please, do try an answer that doesn't involve raising the taxes on those of us that pay them.

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Ive said it numerous times...across the board cuts...mandated by legislation. Kill off redundant federal systems. Once those mandated cuts are legislated and cant be undone then raise taxes with a realistic plan to pay off the debt in 10 years.

Sorry...I dont play the mindless partisan bull**** games real well. I believe in cuts AND increased taxes as required. I just dont buy into the whiny "its not fair-blame and tax the rich and make them pay for the poor pathetic little creatures that cant be bothered to provide for themselves" bit.

Re: Liberals Try to Rekindle Town Hall Fury That Inflamed Health Care Debate Read mo

This is an partisan spin piece.

There is no evidence that the elderly people speaking up at town hall meetings are liberal, conservative, or otherwise.

Fox News proves once again that the reporting of News is not a priority.

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VanceMack said:

Ive said it numerous times...across the board cuts...mandated by legislation. Kill off redundant federal systems. Once those mandated cuts are legislated and cant be undone then raise taxes with a realistic plan to pay off the debt in 10 years.

Sorry...I dont play the mindless partisan bull**** games real well. I believe in cuts AND increased taxes as required. I just dont buy into the whiny "its not fair-blame and tax the rich and make them pay for the poor pathetic little creatures that cant be bothered to provide for themselves" bit.

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I agree that cuts must be made and taxes must be raised. I also agree that this needs to be done across the board, regardless of income. I do however have a problem with your statement, "I just dont buy into the whiny "its not fair-blame and tax the rich and make them pay for the poor pathetic little creatures that cant be bothered to provide for themselves" bit."

I believe strongly in fiscal conservation, a very unpopular practice, in the government and one's personal life. I however find talk of this responsibility on both the personal and federal level to be mostly rhetoric. I can't tell you how many people I've met who bitch and moan about how our government needs to be responsible financially while living in a house they can't afford, driving 2 brand new cars, and basically keeping up with Jones'.

I also believe that everyone must pay their fair share to solve this problem, but to act like there is a level playing field between the ultra rich and everyone below is, in my opinion, down right absurd. One just has to look at the number of CEO's and other corporate directors who are now running our government organizations (FDA is a great example off the top of my head) and the legislation that follows. This is equally true in both parties.

I have said on many occasions that I believe the first step to solving our financial problems is to put the American people, not corporate backed lobbyists, back in the drivers seat. Again, both the left and right are guilty of this.

I believe making elections publicly funded, legislating a determined campaign period, and ending corporate personhood are just as important as tax increases or spending cuts. These three things, I believe, would lead to a much more honest election process and government.

Re: Liberals Try to Rekindle Town Hall Fury That Inflamed Health Care Debate Read mo

Whovian said:

And women! Don't forget we hate women!

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And baby chicks.

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tessaesque said:

So I guess I hate myself then, eh?

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No, you've been captured and brainwashed for our amusement.

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Midwest Lib said:

I agree that cuts must be made and taxes must be raised. I also agree that this needs to be done across the board, regardless of income. I do however have a problem with your statement, "I just dont buy into the whiny "its not fair-blame and tax the rich and make them pay for the poor pathetic little creatures that cant be bothered to provide for themselves" bit."

I believe strongly in fiscal conservation, a very unpopular practice, in the government and one's personal life. I however find talk of this responsibility on both the personal and federal level to be mostly rhetoric. I can't tell you how many people I've met who bitch and moan about how our government needs to be responsible financially while living in a house they can't afford, driving 2 brand new cars, and basically keeping up with Jones'.

I also believe that everyone must pay their fair share to solve this problem, but to act like there is a level playing field between the ultra rich and everyone below is, in my opinion, down right absurd. One just has to look at the number of CEO's and other corporate directors who are now running our government organizations (FDA is a great example off the top of my head) and the legislation that follows. This is equally true in both parties.

I have said on many occasions that I believe the first step to solving our financial problems is to put the American people, not corporate backed lobbyists, back in the drivers seat. Again, both the left and right are guilty of this.

I believe making elections publicly funded, legislating a determined campaign period, and ending corporate personhood are just as important as tax increases or spending cuts. These three things, I believe, would lead to a much more honest election process and government.

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I dont think we disagree as much as you might. I believe in responsibility...accountability. Personal as well as government...more so. And it surprises some to know I believe very strongly in effective social services provided by first individuals, then churches, then the state (and never the Fed). I give of my time and resources because it is what I believe in and how I choose to live my life. I dont need the government to tell me what is right. I dont WANT the government to do it. I think we as a society are at our greatest when we give...not because we have to but because we want to. I think that is frequently demonstrated when the world experiences disasters.

I also believe that our reckless offering of social services has taken us as a country to the verge of bankruptcy but also has enabled many capable individuals to become crippled dependent pets who dont challenge themselves. They accept that they 'cant' provide for themselves...and that its
not their fault. The true crime is that those people leech away resources from those that truly need them. We arent a stronger country because our welfare state tendency...we are much much weaker.

Re: Liberals Try to Rekindle Town Hall Fury That Inflamed Health Care Debate Read mo

VanceMack said:

I dont think we disagree as much as you might. I believe in responsibility...accountability. Personal as well as government...more so. And it surprises some to know I believe very strongly in effective social services provided by first individuals, then churches, then the state (and never the Fed). I give of my time and resources because it is what I believe in and how I choose to live my life. I dont need the government to tell me what is right. I dont WANT the government to do it. I think we as a society are at our greatest when we give...not because we have to but because we want to. I think that is frequently demonstrated when the world experiences disasters.

I also believe that our reckless offering of social services has taken us as a country to the verge of bankruptcy but also has enabled many capable individuals to become crippled dependent pets who dont challenge themselves. They accept that they 'cant' provide for themselves...and that its
not their fault. The true crime is that those people leech away resources from those that truly need them. We arent a stronger country because our welfare state tendency...we are much much weaker.

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You're right. We do agree on a lot from a strictly fiscal standpoint. I think there is a ton of redundancy and even more pointless waste to most if not all government programs. Where we differ is on the social aspect. I too donate my time and money when I'm able to worthy causes. I do however see things such as healthcare and unemployment as necessary safety nets for the good of the people as a whole. I think of it as donating my tax dollars to a worthy cause. I also donate some of my taxes to causes I don't find to be as necessary, such as an imperialistic presense in countries the world over. This is the nature of the beast. We all pay for things we don't approve of. That is not to say that the reach of these programs are not at times over stepping their bounds or that the system isn't taken advantage of. I just find it to be a lesser of two evils. I find the theory that a government without these safety nets working perfectly is a bit utopian. There will always be give and take.

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American said:

I read this, it's not unexpected. They want everyone to think that Republicans kill puppies, old people and children.

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Wrong.... everyone knows that Republicans generally care about puppies.

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upsideguy said:

Wrong.... everyone knows that Republicans generally care about puppies.

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Wrong....we steal puppy food away and give it to seniors after we steal their social security checks. On top of that, we withhold the can openers until they give us what's in their cookie jars.

Re: Liberals Try to Rekindle Town Hall Fury That Inflamed Health Care Debate Read mo

American said:

Wrong....we steal puppy food away and give it to seniors after we steal their social security checks. On top of that, we withhold the can openers until they give us what's in their cookie jars.

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I disagree. You are stealing the puppy food away from the seniors, and selling it on the open market. :mrgreen:

Give me the win for outdoing you on hyperbole. LOL.

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Midwest Lib said:

You're right. We do agree on a lot from a strictly fiscal standpoint. I think there is a ton of redundancy and even more pointless waste to most if not all government programs. Where we differ is on the social aspect. I too donate my time and money when I'm able to worthy causes. I do however see things such as healthcare and unemployment as necessary safety nets for the good of the people as a whole. I think of it as donating my tax dollars to a worthy cause. I also donate some of my taxes to causes I don't find to be as necessary, such as an imperialistic presense in countries the world over. This is the nature of the beast. We all pay for things we don't approve of. That is not to say that the reach of these programs are not at times over stepping their bounds or that the system isn't taken advantage of. I just find it to be a lesser of two evils. I find the theory that a government without these safety nets working perfectly is a bit utopian. There will always be give and take.

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The difference being that you believe the fed can handle the job and I believe it should be left, where necessary, to the states. I think the fed, with a 14.5 trillion dollar debt and climbing, continues prove themselves incapable of responsibly managing taxpayer dollars.

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MrVicchio said:

I'm sorry, $14,000,000,000,000.00+ in debt obviously hasn't gotten through to you yet.

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One side just wants to cut spending and taxes, and the other side wants to cut some spending and raise taxes... Both sides want to solve the problem, just disagree how to do it

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danarhea said:

I disagree. You are stealing the puppy food away from the seniors, and selling it on the open market. :mrgreen:

Give me the win for outdoing you on hyperbole. LOL.

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We stop producing puppy food altogether and allow the manufacturer to move their operations overseas to save a few dollars. Then we pay high tariffs on it when it comes into the states to be sold on the open market.

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MrVicchio said:

That's a laughable lie and a bit of projection from you. I've always been for small government and a balanced budget. 60%+ of the Federal Budget goes to the welfare state.

60%+.

It HAS to end, whether you want to admit it or not.

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How much welfare have you accepted?

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Both parities are in deep **** and nobody is happy, and you guys are naive to think you can convince people to give up medicaid in a ****ty economy.

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VanceMack said:

The difference being that you believe the fed can handle the job and I believe it should be left, where necessary, to the states. I think the fed, with a 14.5 trillion dollar debt and climbing, continues prove themselves incapable of responsibly managing taxpayer dollars.

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Unfortunately at this point in time I don't believe they can. Over the last 20 years we have seen a decline in our government's interest in the good of the people and an increase in governmental self interest. This doesn't make me believe the programs are to blame, however

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I couldn't agree more with this. Lack of governmental interest in the people is our own fault though. We have short attention spans and we don't like it when politicians make the tough decisions. Be "we" I mean the majority of the country (not likely the people going through the trouble of posting on these boards). This means politicians always have to weigh the political value of a decision and how it will rank with the electorate in the short term, rather than really think about what the best solution overall is. It's a strange situation.