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Guantánamo leaks lift lid on world's most controversial prison

ask holder, honey

YOUR cite said nothing of holder
instead, it attributed the quote you repeat to one John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency's detention and interrogation program

he's the fellow who also told us:
"But we didn't have the time or resources to do a careful, systematic analysis of the use of particular techniques with particular individuals and independently confirm the quality of the information that came out."
and this
John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency's detention and interrogation program, said his work did not put him in "a position to reach definitive conclusions about the effectiveness of particular interrogation methods."
[emphasis by bubba]

but go on and give us the cite where holder is shown to have made that statement
please
 
Is it? Not saying never is not to say it is effective in any situation. We may have gotten something here and there, but that wouldn't make it effective anywhere. It would be a leap to conclude that it was. Instead, we'd need much more information and a very detailed study. That's why i point to existing litature on the subject, which has nearly always concluded that torture is not effective at gathering information.

Why do you keep spelling literature wrong? Anyway, there is such things out there, but obviously they're not going to be open source, for two reasons: public outcry and the compromise of "means and methods" that the intelligence community despises.
 
from your cite

yes, mr helgerson says he can't make "definitive conclusions about the effectiveness of particular interrogation methods"

but the ig is unequivocal in his conclusion that ksm became langley's "preeminent source," who conducted "terrorist tutorials," who "cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent" only "after his spirit was broken" in the month after his capture by very harsh eit's used against the 9-11 mastermind in a secret prison in eastern europe, who helped agents compile "a list of 70 individuals, many of whom we had never heard of," allowing langley to "cross reference material from different detainees" and "leverage info from one to extract more detail from another," enabling agents "to round up operatives in the us and abroad"

These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques.

"KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete," according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA's then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department.

The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.

John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency's detention and interrogation program, said his work did not put him in "a position to reach definitive conclusions about the effectiveness of particular interrogation methods."

"Certain of the techniques seemed to have little effect, whereas waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the two most powerful techniques and elicited a lot of information," he said in an interview. "But we didn't have the time or resources to do a careful, systematic analysis of the use of particular techniques with particular individuals and independently confirm the quality of the information that came out."

Mohammed described plans to strike targets in Saudi Arabia, East Asia and the United States after the Sept. 11 attacks, including using a network of Pakistanis "to target gas stations, railroad tracks, and the Brooklyn bridge in New York." Cross-referencing material from different detainees, and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the CIA and FBI went on to round up operatives both in the United States and abroad.

"Detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of whom we had never heard of before -- that al-Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations," according to the CIA summary.

Mohammed was an unparalleled source in deciphering al-Qaeda's strategic doctrine, key operatives and likely targets, the summary said, including describing in "considerable detail the traits and profiles" that al-Qaeda sought in Western operatives and how the terrorist organization might conduct surveillance in the United States.
 
To those of you who agreed with my post but say it's not totally impossible, you're right. I was using a bit of hyperbole, but I'll tell you right now, waterboarding anyone other than some idiot street criminal has almost 0 chance of yielding actionable info.


Prof, the quote from the report shows that waterboarding got people to talk. Of course it did! If you've ever seen 24 or an action movie, they like to talk about "breaking points". What they say there is half true. Everyone has a point where they can't take it anymore, but unlike TV, the person will not start divulging actionable intelligence. The person will say whatever they can to prolongue not being tortured. That's what happened with KSM and others. No actionable intelligence, but it got them to talk about stuff. I speak to people about this a lot. I have high up friends, you meet them when you do federal law enforcement. One of them tells me "KSM started singing like a bird after he was waterboarded enough" I ask him what did we learn? Answer is it's unclear. The officials have no problem saying when something doesn't work, we get all these details, etc. It's not because it's classified. It's because there's nothing actionable learned. Look at the bin laden stuff. They tell us we learned parts from interrogating KSM, that he blatantly lied under torture, which as I said people do, and that tipped us off to the courier being more important than previously thought

As for sleep deprivation, that works. Police departments all over the nation do that. It disorients the subject and causes them to not think clearly and be more willing to give up info. A common technique is to let a subject go to sleep, then wake him, then let him go back, etc all in 5-10 minute intervals.
 
Anyway, there is such things out there, but obviously they're not going to be open source, for two reasons: public outcry and the compromise of "means and methods" that the intelligence community despises.
I'm not following you, but point is, what we have written from studies, clearly spell out that torture is not effective for gatheirng information. Torture isn't new. We didn't just now invent waterboarding or any of these things. The research has been done, so I suggests there's a much simplier reason why no one has been able to give much if anything concerning details of what we got through torture. We didn't get much. Reasonable people would like say, "That's it? You broke the law, tortured innocent people, and that's all we got?"

Better for them to be vague and merely make claims.
 
YOUR cite said nothing of holder
instead, it attributed the quote you repeat to one John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency's detention and interrogation program

he's the fellow who also told us:
and this
[emphasis by bubba]

but go on and give us the cite where holder is shown to have made that statement
please

Posting mindless links without actually reading or seeking to understand them seems to be a rather common practice with some. :coffeepap
 
Posting mindless links without actually reading or seeking to understand them seems to be a rather common practice with some.

says the person who links to the SYDNEY MORNING HERALD to argue for teacher retention in new york

LOL!
 
says the person who links to the SYDNEY MORNING HERALD to argue for teacher retention in new york

LOL!

Do wish I didn't scare you so. If I didn't, you might actually understand what has been posted and why. So often you miss the point altogether. Sadly. :coffeepap
 
ksm became langley's PREEMINENT SOURCE on all things aq---cia's ig report released by eric holder, aug, 2009
 
ksm became langley's PREEMINENT SOURCE on all things aq---cia's ig report released by eric holder, aug, 2009

Again, you repeat the claim, but do not link the report. You're willing suspension of disbelief, as situational as it is, is impressive all the same. :coffeepap
 
yup, the claim made by the ig

and ENDORSED by holder

"waterboarding elicited a lot of information"

thanks

You're willing suspension of disbelief

dept chair, huh?

LOL!
 
yup, the claim made by the ig

and ENDORSED by holder

"waterboarding elicited a lot of information"

thanks



dept chair, huh?

LOL!

But, you can't link the report? I see, . . . not really. :coffeepap
 
This isn't the IG report that you want a link to; it is older (May 2004) but nonetheless interesting on a couple of counts. First,

16.~The Agency's detention and interrogation
of terrorists has provided intelligence that has enabled the
identification and apprehension of other terrorists and warned of
terrorist plots planned .for the United States and around the world.
The eTC Program has resulted in the issuance of thousands of
individual intelligence reports and analytic products supporting the
counterterrorism efforts of U.S..policym.akers and military
commanders.

...suggesting that EIT was effective.

The report, found here, recognizes that detainees may be around quite a long time.

Lots of interesting stuff in there, despite the extensive redacting, still reading.

Edit: actually, that may be the report in question. Not quite sure, though, still reading.
 
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This isn't the IG report that you want a link to; it is older (May 2004) but nonetheless interesting on a couple of counts. First,



...suggesting that EIT was effective.

The report, found here, recognizes that detainees may be around quite a long time.

Lots of interesting stuff in there, despite the extensive redacting, still reading.

Edit: actually, that may be the report in question. Not quite sure, though, still reading.

There is a lot of redaction, but also highly unclear. You say suggests. But not clearly states. Nor provides any specifics. The CIA has an inherent interest in making this appear effective. It is another thing to prove it effective. IG is outside the CIA, and while they share a government interest, it would be a step removed from the CIA.
 
This isn't the IG report that you want a link to

yes, it is, and it's been pasted a dozen times

the doj released it on the monday preceding aug 29, 2009

but the summary was written in 2004

which has also been made unmistakably plain

thanks
 
yes, it is, and it's been pasted a dozen times

the doj released it on the monday preceding aug 29, 2009

but the summary was written in 2004

which has also been made unmistakably plain

thanks

Wp is not the IG report. Please, link the IG report. I'll keep waiting. :coffeepap
 
yup, it's provided by the ig and endorsed by holder

LOL!

and it says:

"preeminent source"

"unparalleled source"

"after his spirit was broken"

"waterboarding elicited a lot of information"

sorry, syd
 
I'm not following you, but point is, what we have written from studies, clearly spell out that torture is not effective for gatheirng information. Torture isn't new. We didn't just now invent waterboarding or any of these things. The research has been done, so I suggests there's a much simplier reason why no one has been able to give much if anything concerning details of what we got through torture. We didn't get much. Reasonable people would like say, "That's it? You broke the law, tortured innocent people, and that's all we got?"

Better for them to be vague and merely make claims.

What I'm saying is the research doesn't show what you're saying it shows. That's all. Waterboarding can be effective in certain situations. I'm sure torture could be too. I don't understand the resistance you're giving to that concept, it doesn't seem to make much sense.
 
Federal law enforcement is very different from intelligence collection, though.

That's not the point. I do work in similar situations, and my work overlaps with counter terrorism all the time. I'm not some joke from the BIA who protects the sovereignty of Indian reservations. I've arrested people who are/were suspected of terrorism. That said, intelligence collection is not the case here. The case here is whether or not torture works as an interrogation technique, which, as I have said, it does not. I really hate how all of the people who seem to argue for torture in this thread continuously ignore every single point I make and just attack my credibility, or in another case, compliment me for being a law enforcement officer (not what i was going for)
 
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yup, it's provided by the ig and endorsed by holder

LOL!

and it says:

"preeminent source"

"unparalleled source"

"after his spirit was broken"

"waterboarding elicited a lot of information"

sorry, syd
you are so going to hate this:
A private letter from CIA chief Leon Panetta to Senator John McCain (R-AZ) confirms that the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques put in place by the Bush administration did not reveal intelligence about Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, the courier that eventually led the U.S. to Osama bin Laden.

The letter was obtained by The Washington Post and a CIA spokesperson confirmed its authenticity.

"Let me further point out that we first learned about the facilitator/courier’s nom de guerre from a detainee not in CIA custody in 2002," the letter stated. "It is also important to note that some detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques attempted to provide false or misleading information about the facilitator/courier. These attempts to falsify the facilitator/courier’s role were alerting."

"In the end, no detainee in CIA custody revealed the facilitator/courier’s full true name or specific whereabouts," Panetta added. "This information was discovered through other intelligence means."
CIA chief’s letter confirms torture did not lead to Osama bin Laden | The Raw Story
 
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