U.N. Prepares to Debate Whether 'Mother Earth' Deserves Human Rights Status

GPS_Flex · Apr 19, 2011

What if...? said:
Alternative energy technology should have saved us from the current changes occuring worldwide. But we decided to defend the fossil fuel industries instead, harping on whether global warming is real or not.

No, global warming alarmists decided to attack the fossil fuel industry, attack capitalism and promote socialism as the solution. I’m not sure where you get the idea that we would have been “saved” by alternative energy already. Care to explain how this could have happened?

What if...? said:
And the right talks to the left like they're daft children if any responsibility in regards to our fragile biosphere is even mentioned.

Maybe that’s because the left never frames the issue in reasonable terms and always has to make it into an attack on existing and proven energy sources, attacks on capitalism and the promotion of socialism?

What if...? said:
And I'm not sure that mercantilism and non-corporate businesses couldn't have provided the world we live in as well as capitalism and corporate business has.

You, and the United Nations, make my point for me once again. If enviro-nuts were simply seeking solutions rather than pushing their socialist demands, those on the right might be more willing to work with them.

What if...? · Apr 19, 2011

GPS_Flex said:
No, global warming alarmists decided to attack the fossil fuel industry, attack capitalism and promote socialism as the solution. I’m not sure where you get the idea that we would have been “saved” by alternative energy already. Care to explain how this could have happened?

Maybe that’s because the left never frames the issue in reasonable terms and always has to make it into an attack on existing and proven energy sources, attacks on capitalism and the promotion of socialism?

You, and the United Nations, make my point for me once again. If enviro-nuts were simply seeking solutions rather than pushing their socialist demands, those on the right might be more willing to work with them.

Ah, one of my favorites.

I actually did this math awhile ago in response to a conversational statement similar to yours.

So here goes.

Its all about priorities.

A grid based solar system for an average home at the time I did the orignal numbers was about $25,000. This would provide, for So Cal, enough solar power to zero an average families electricity. bill. Normal, "Dad" level conservation.

Solar panel costs have gone up due to high demand outstripping supplies. But recent tech. advances may change things a little, and China is tooling up to meet demand.

But I can't remember exactly what point in the Iraq conflict I took the next number in the formula from so lets do this:

Solar system for average home, average real world family of four, zero net electric bill:

$50,000

War in Iraq:

$1,000,000,000,000

Households that could have been permanently freed from fossil/imported energy had we spent that money solarizing:

20,000,000

Americans permanently free from foreign/diminishing/polluting fossil fuels for their electricity:

80,000,000, or somewhere around 25% of the country.

Now, before you get anything in a bunch, its just math illustrating what could have been done with that money, that we spent. And of course those aren't exact correct numbers.

But its still a LOT of people, ENERGY NEEDS MET, NO FURTHER COST ABOVE MAINTENANCE.

Not still paying more with no end in sight to higher bills.

I'm not sure how long it takes for all that electricity to total a trillion, but that's money we could certainly use here. And how many times would we have to divert capital to similar projects, before we never had to entangle ourselves in foreign conflicts over access to oil?

And we would have had to build solar panel factories to do it, because there's nowhere near enough manufacturing capacity to meet that demand!

Its not a matter of alternative energy being unrealistic or that the technologies are all immature.

Its a matter of us deciding to sell the world what it wants to buy.

Instead of letting vested interests sell us what they want us to buy.:2wave:

GPS_Flex · Apr 20, 2011

What if...? said:
Ah, one of my favorites.

I actually did this math awhile ago in response to a conversational statement similar to yours.

So here goes.

Its all about priorities.

A grid based solar system for an average home at the time I did the orignal numbers was about $25,000. This would provide, for So Cal, enough solar power to zero an average families electricity. bill. Normal, "Dad" level conservation.

Solar panel costs have gone up due to high demand outstripping supplies. But recent tech. advances may change things a little, and China is tooling up to meet demand.

But I can't remember exactly what point in the Iraq conflict I took the next number in the formula from so lets do this:

Solar system for average home, average real world family of four, zero net electric bill:

$50,000

War in Iraq:

$1,000,000,000,000

Households that could have been permanently freed from fossil/imported energy had we spent that money solarizing:

20,000,000

Americans permanently free from foreign/diminishing/polluting fossil fuels for their electricity:

80,000,000, or somewhere around 25% of the country.

Now, before you get anything in a bunch, its just math illustrating what could have been done with that money, that we spent. And of course those aren't exact correct numbers.

But its still a LOT of people, ENERGY NEEDS MET, NO FURTHER COST ABOVE MAINTENANCE.

Not still paying more with no end in sight to higher bills.

I'm not sure how long it takes for all that electricity to total a trillion, but that's money we could certainly use here. And how many times would we have to divert capital to similar projects, before we never had to entangle ourselves in foreign conflicts over access to oil?

And we would have had to build solar panel factories to do it, because there's nowhere near enough manufacturing capacity to meet that demand!

Its not a matter of alternative energy being unrealistic or that the technologies are all immature.

Its a matter of us deciding to sell the world what it wants to buy.

Instead of letting vested interests sell us what they want us to buy.:2wave:

So how does your study account for the huge influx of nitrogen triflouride (NF3) during production of this many solar panels and how does it account for the increase in global warming caused by their absorption of electromagnetic energy where only 15%-30% of the absorbed energy is actually converted into electricity?

You do realize that reason inner cities are so much hotter than the suburbs on a hot day is because they act like solar panels due to the difference between the materials and colors they are comprised of right?

I can help you with one of these questions. What we need to do is make sure every roof top and every street is painted bright white.

At least you spared me the pinko commie lecture this time around

eace

BTW, that was a great post. Thanks.

What if...? · Apr 20, 2011

GPS_Flex said:
So how does your study account for the huge influx of nitrogen triflouride (NF3) during production of this many solar panels and how does it account for the increase in global warming caused by their absorption of electromagnetic energy where only 15%-30% of the absorbed energy is actually converted into electricity?

You do realize that reason inner cities are so much hotter than the suburbs on a hot day is because they act like solar panels due to the difference between the materials and colors they are comprised of right?

I can help you with one of these questions. What we need to do is make sure every roof top and every street is painted bright white.

At least you spared me the pinko commie lecture this time around eace

BTW, that was a great post. Thanks.

I am aware of the toxicity involved in photovoltaic solar panels, as well as the limited amounts of I think its gallium arsenate(sic) available globally.

There's a new PV chemistry that just came on the scene, I know little about it yet though.

I'm a real fan of concentrating solar. The Sunflower system, which incorporates a Stirling engine at the focal point of a parabolic array is way cool, as well as some of the "farms" here in So Cal.

But those systems are geographically constrained. They only work well in areas with very high full sun days. Deserts basically.

I would like to know more about your global warming statement though, as I don't understand your reasoning. Not picking a fight.

I have a friend who sprays on that white foam roofing, so I get that part.

But I have always understood that A) PV panels shade roofs from direct sunlight, lowering net heat hitting the roof underneath and B) That the 15-30% you mentioned is converted to electricity and taken away, resulting in a net decrease in local heat.

I am interested in your claim though and would like to hear more.

I do like to know what I'm talking about.

And I still think we should be leading the way in the arena of alt energy instead of fighting it every step of the way.

I have friends who live downwind of the big windfarms near Palm Springs. They are convinced that weather patterns where they grew up have changed due to the drag the windmills put on the prevailing winds "stalling" weather systems that previously brought a lot more rain. No evidence just experiential data.

And they live in a a sustainable, off-grid home they built themselves. So they root for the green team.:2wave:

GPS_Flex · Apr 21, 2011

What if...? said:
I am aware of the toxicity involved in photovoltaic solar panels, as well as the limited amounts of I think its gallium arsenate(sic) available globally.

There's a new PV chemistry that just came on the scene, I know little about it yet though.

I'm a real fan of concentrating solar. The Sunflower system, which incorporates a Stirling engine at the focal point of a parabolic array is way cool, as well as some of the "farms" here in So Cal.

But those systems are geographically constrained. They only work well in areas with very high full sun days. Deserts basically.

I would like to know more about your global warming statement though, as I don't understand your reasoning. Not picking a fight.

I have a friend who sprays on that white foam roofing, so I get that part.

But I have always understood that A) PV panels shade roofs from direct sunlight, lowering net heat hitting the roof underneath and B) That the 15-30% you mentioned is converted to electricity and taken away, resulting in a net decrease in local heat.

I am interested in your claim though and would like to hear more.

I do like to know what I'm talking about.

And I still think we should be leading the way in the arena of alt energy instead of fighting it every step of the way.

I have friends who live downwind of the big windfarms near Palm Springs. They are convinced that weather patterns where they grew up have changed due to the drag the windmills put on the prevailing winds "stalling" weather systems that previously brought a lot more rain. No evidence just experiential data.

And they live in a a sustainable, off-grid home they built themselves. So they root for the green team.:2wave:

It is called the albedo effect (incident radiation divided by reflected radiation). The urban heat island effect I mentioned earlier is caused by low albedo rates and installation of large swaths of solar panels in an otherwise grassy field or sandy desert would similarly reduce the albedo and give off more ambient heat than would otherwise be present (global climate forcing).

Obviously we would need to study the effects of the tradeoff in how much Co2 would have been emitted if the same amount of energy had been produced by your local power plant but if your electricity comes from a local hydro power plant the numbers will be different than a local coal power plant or diesel power plant etc.

I really don’t have time to do a study and write an essay on the subject because I have three term papers that will be due soon, but anyone with a basic understanding of physics who researches the reflective properties of different surface types can see that my point is valid.

To reiterate my previous point, if people who claim to be worried about the environment spent less time telling us capitalism and evil fuel companies are destroying the planet and more time making suggestions like “how bout we change the color of roof shingles”, there might be a little more cooperation from people who can’t live without a car or electricity and have zero interest in the US adopting socialism or allowing other countries to tax us.

Here is a link to a study a 13 year old boy did for his 8th grade science project. We need more kids like this.

An Analysis of the Effect of Roofing Albedo on Ambient Temperature - 2007 Young Naturalist Awards

What if...? · Apr 21, 2011

GPS_Flex said:
It is called the albedo effect (incident radiation divided by reflected radiation). The urban heat island effect I mentioned earlier is caused by low albedo rates and installation of large swaths of solar panels in an otherwise grassy field or sandy desert would similarly reduce the albedo and give off more ambient heat than would otherwise be present (global climate forcing).

Obviously we would need to study the effects of the tradeoff in how much Co2 would have been emitted if the same amount of energy had been produced by your local power plant but if your electricity comes from a local hydro power plant the numbers will be different than a local coal power plant or diesel power plant etc.

I really don’t have time to do a study and write an essay on the subject because I have three term papers that will be due soon, but anyone with a basic understanding of physics who researches the reflective properties of different surface types can see that my point is valid.

To reiterate my previous point, if people who claim to be worried about the environment spent less time telling us capitalism and evil fuel companies are destroying the planet and more time making suggestions like “how bout we change the color of roof shingles”, there might be a little more cooperation from people who can’t live without a car or electricity and have zero interest in the US adopting socialism or allowing other countries to tax us.

Here is a link to a study a 13 year old boy did for his 8th grade science project. We need more kids like this.

An Analysis of the Effect of Roofing Albedo on Ambient Temperature - 2007 Young Naturalist Awards

Thanks. That's plenty of info for me to research this aspect and add it to my modeling.

Also, I've got some great ideas on electric motorsports. Including a proof of concept electric bicycle I built that performs at the level of a 50cc scooter.

And recent tech. advancements resulting from power delivery of lithium rechargeables make it possible to deliver tire burning power in a platform weighing well under 20 pounds, delivering 20 mph for 20 miles for less than 20 pounds with well under an hour charging.

The whole idea being to encourage user experimentation/development at a level where battery cost is reasonable. Increasing battery demand and pushing prices down, making larger, more powerful vehicles accessible.

Many of our favorite technologies had their birth in private experimentation, and I would love to see us get back to that.

And high power electrics are FAST! And DANGEROUS! Testosterone friendly!

As well as quiet, odorless, and "green". Making it much easier to have tracks, etc..

Real men should like electric vehicles!:2wave:

GPS_Flex · Apr 21, 2011

What if...? said:
Thanks. That's plenty of info for me to research this aspect and add it to my modeling.

Also, I've got some great ideas on electric motorsports. Including a proof of concept electric bicycle I built that performs at the level of a 50cc scooter.

And recent tech. advancements resulting from power delivery of lithium rechargeables make it possible to deliver tire burning power in a platform weighing well under 20 pounds, delivering 20 mph for 20 miles for less than 20 pounds with well under an hour charging.

The whole idea being to encourage user experimentation/development at a level where battery cost is reasonable. Increasing battery demand and pushing prices down, making larger, more powerful vehicles accessible.

Many of our favorite technologies had their birth in private experimentation, and I would love to see us get back to that.

And high power electrics are FAST! And DANGEROUS! Testosterone friendly!

As well as quiet, odorless, and "green". Making it much easier to have tracks, etc..

Real men should like electric vehicles!:2wave:

There are a lot of great ideas out there and I support you 100% in any efforts to find solutions that don’t involve crushing burdens on the US economy, revamping the US political system or an increase in the United Nations global power.