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Egypt's Hosni Mubarak in hospital after 'heart attack'

I, for one, do not find any good in this news. For all his flaws, some of which were exhibited during the popular uprising that led to his ouster, President Mubarak also deserves a lot of credit. Following the assassination of his predecessor Anwar Sadat, President Mubarak could have taken the easy path and terminated the still fragile bilateral Israel-Egypt peace treaty. He did not. In no small part due to his leadership, that agreement is on much more solid footing than it was when President Mubarak succeeded President Sadat. He played an active, energetic, and persistent role in trying to broker regional peace. While an overall peace agreement was not achieved, his efforts promoted regional stability. At a time when radicalism increased in numerous Mideast countries, President Mubarak helped safeguard Egypt from such influences, limiting their impact on Egypt. He was also a generally reliable ally for the United States.
 
Death is good for him.

I'd rather tits they kept him alive and in an Egyptian prison.


We supported Mubarak because he was willing to break with the Soviets and keep the peace with Israel. With Jordan and Egypt at peace with Israel, that only left Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians.

Mubarak reduced tensions in the ME. So tell me how that makes him such a bad guy?

You should be ashamed of yourselves.
 
Zine Abidine Ben Ali is also reported to be in poor health. He had a stroke after his ouster and remains in critical condition. I guess the stress of being deposed from power really takes a toll on a person's health.
 
President Mubarak could have taken the easy path and terminated the still fragile bilateral Israel-Egypt peace treaty. He did not.

Mubarak recognized that he couldn't win a war against Israel. While I suppose he deserves a little bit of credit for being rational enough to know that, it's hardly a great accomplishment in itself. And putting aside the specifics of the Israel-Egypt peace treaty, are all peace agreements inherently in the interests of the people of that nation? Although I don't think the Egyptian people have any desire to go to war with Israel, they also don't have the desire to be as supportive of Israel as Mubarak was. As a dictator, Mubarak was not representative of the wishes of his people.

donsutherland1 said:
While an overall peace agreement was not achieved, his efforts promoted regional stability.

"Regional stability" is merely an obsession of the United States (which makes sense, since the Arab states tended to support American power). As the recent revolts have made clear, the Arab people do not place such a high premium on regional stability.

donsutherland1 said:
At a time when radicalism increased in numerous Mideast countries, President Mubarak helped safeguard Egypt from such influences, limiting their impact on Egypt.

Radicalism is CAUSED by stagnant political systems and economic poverty...problems which Mubarak has made worse.

donsutherland1 said:
He was also a generally reliable ally for the United States.

And what aspect of American foreign policy in the Middle East would lead you to the conclusion that being "a reliable ally of the United States" is inherently a good thing? I'm glad he wasn't our enemy, but his people's interests would have been better served if he had ACTED in the people's interests. And sometimes that will entail people electing people that the US government doesn't like.
 
We supported Mubarak because he was willing to break with the Soviets and keep the peace with Israel. With Jordan and Egypt at peace with Israel, that only left Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians.

Mubarak reduced tensions in the ME. So tell me how that makes him such a bad guy?

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

This is sadly correct.

Unfortunately, this part of the world continuously proves itself to be evolved just this side of a cockroach. Mass chaos is inevitable.
 
Mubarak recognized that he couldn't win a war against Israel. While I suppose he deserves a little bit of credit for being rational enough to know that, it's hardly a great accomplishment in itself. And putting aside the specifics of the Israel-Egypt peace treaty, are all peace agreements inherently in the interests of the people of that nation? Although I don't think the Egyptian people have any desire to go to war with Israel, they also don't have the desire to be as supportive of Israel as Mubarak was. As a dictator, Mubarak was not representative of the wishes of his people.

President Mubarak didn't need to go to war with Israel. He could merely have taken the easy path and rescinded the treaty, leaving open the possibility of war at some point in the future and preserving ties to the Arab world. He didn't. He could have taken the minimalist approach and merely honored the treaty in a technical sense. Instead, he played an active and persistent role in trying to mediate a larger peace agreement between Israel and the other Arab states. Moreover, even as he honored the treaty and pushed for peace, he also patiently rebuilt Egypt's relationships with the rest of the Arab world. Those relationships had been severed upon Egypt's agreeing to peace with Israel.

Without doubt, he was an authoritarian leader. He was not necessarily representative of his people. Nonetheless, his record is not all bad. On the peace front, I would suggest that his record is quite exemplary.

"Regional stability" is merely an obsession of the United States (which makes sense, since the Arab states tended to support American power). As the recent revolts have made clear, the Arab people do not place such a high premium on regional stability.

Regional stability is not just an American obsession. Given that Europe depends on the Mideast for an even larger share of its oil, regional stability is at least as much a European goal as it is an American one. Regional stability, of course, does not mean adherence to a rigid status quo. Instead, it allows for change, but at a pace where things don't deteriorate to the point where widespread violence erupts. A gradual but steady shift toward democratization would be fully incompatible with the goal of regional stability.

Radicalism is CAUSED by stagnant political systems and economic poverty...problems which Mubarak has made worse.

Myriad factors are involved. Economic stagnation, wealth disparities, a large underemployed youthful population, a quasi-religious reawakening led by fundamentalists who blame a drift away from Islam for the region's problems and want to turn back the clock to a more stringent interpretation of religion and greater role of religion in society, a disproportionately small role for women in society, historic rivalries (ethnic, tribal, and religious), actual and perceived grievances, stunted institutions, etc.

Clearly, President Mubarak was not able to lead Egypt in a fashion that allowed Egypt to avoid growing discontent. He was not able to accommodate the desires among Egypt's people for a larger voice and meaningful political choices. However, in that respect, he was quite similar to many of the other Arab rulers. Such systems are no accident. The absence of liberal Western-style democratic systems in the Arab world is not coincidence. The current systems reflect the institutional development, historic experience, cultural traditions, etc., in those states.

And what aspect of American foreign policy in the Middle East would lead you to the conclusion that being "a reliable ally of the United States" is inherently a good thing? I'm glad he wasn't our enemy, but his people's interests would have been better served if he had ACTED in the people's interests. And sometimes that will entail people electing people that the US government doesn't like.

As an American, President Mubarak's being a reliable ally counts for something. Moreover, I recognize that American interests and the desires of Egypt's people might not always be compatible, but that's entirely a different issue.
 
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We supported Mubarak because he was willing to break with the Soviets and keep the peace with Israel. With Jordan and Egypt at peace with Israel, that only left Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians.

He broke up with the Soviets cus he knew the USA is more beneficial.
He kept the peace with Israel cus if he didn't the USA will dump him like a bad habit.

Mubarak reduced tensions in the ME.
So tell me how that makes him such a bad guy?

Mubarak didn't do nothing to reduce the ME.
If you open your eyes, the ME is full of wars and crisis.

Mubarak only wants to be a big shot dictator.
If he wasn't a bad guy, then most of his countrymen wouldn't of wanted him gone and dead.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

You should stop crying over a stupid dictator puppet.
 
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He broke up with the Soviets cus he knew the USA is more beneficial.
He kept the peace with Israel cus if he didn't the USA will dump him like a bad habit.



Mubarak didn't do nothing to reduce the ME.
If you open your eyes, the ME is full of wars and crisis.

Mubarak only wants to be a big shot dictator.
If he wasn't a bad guy, then most of his countrymen wouldn't of wanted him gone and dead.



You should stop crying over a stupid dictator puppet.

It is very, very difficult to follow a policy that will please everyone short term or anyone in the long term. It is choosing the course of least evil, not greatest good.

Yes, Mubarek was a typical 3rd world dictator. Stealing, putting his buddies and family in positions of power and seeking to maintain power, not benefit the people. The reality is little different than most autocratic rulers for the whole of human history. The names change and the details of how they rule, but the result for most people...it's the same Bullshytz

The difference is that Mubarek did more good, than harm. He was no worse than Qaddafi, Hussein (Syria and Iraq), etc, and in most respects, better.
 
I, for one, do not find any good in this news. For all his flaws, some of which were exhibited during the popular uprising that led to his ouster, President Mubarak also deserves a lot of credit. Following the assassination of his predecessor Anwar Sadat, President Mubarak could have taken the easy path and terminated the still fragile bilateral Israel-Egypt peace treaty. He did not. In no small part due to his leadership, that agreement is on much more solid footing than it was when President Mubarak succeeded President Sadat. He played an active, energetic, and persistent role in trying to broker regional peace. While an overall peace agreement was not achieved, his efforts promoted regional stability. At a time when radicalism increased in numerous Mideast countries, President Mubarak helped safeguard Egypt from such influences, limiting their impact on Egypt. He was also a generally reliable ally for the United States.

and how much did it cost us in "aid" to his country?
 
The belief that Mubarak was anything less than awful stems from the premise that American/Western interests in the Arab world are inherently "good," and working backwards from that premise. According to this mindset, as long as Arab leaders support American/Western interests, it is a mitigating factor for their other faults. But this premise is, at the very least, highly dubious.

We see this still today. Muammar Gaddafi is evil and must be stopped because he's killing the opposition (and by pure coincidence is one of the few Arab leaders who the US dislikes). But if the government of Bahrain or Yemen does the same thing...well, it's a necessary evil that we look the other way because it's somehow for the "greater good" that those countries have pro-American governments. My question is this: What "greater good" is all of our influence in the Middle East building towards? And what about our previous forays into Middle Eastern politics makes us think that we know the greater good better than the people who actually have to live under those governments?
 
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I don't really understand the need to treat leaders as either friends nor foes. Mubarak was certainly a bad guy, but he had useful qualities as well. It made sense to deal with him in order to bring sanity to the Israel situation. However, we were wrong in trying to be "allies" with someone as ideologically incompatible as a dictator. If he can't maintain control of his country, he clearly can't bring anything to the table, so we did the right thing in cutting him loose.
 
I don't really understand the need to treat leaders as either friends nor foes. Mubarak was certainly a bad guy, but he had useful qualities as well.

Useful qualities for the United States, perhaps. Not so much for the Egyptian people.

rathi said:
It made sense to deal with him in order to bring sanity to the Israel situation.

I agree that it's always good to work with foreign leaders, whether dictators or democrats, to promote peaceful outcomes to problems. With that said, the implication of what you are saying is that the wishes of the Egyptian people are insane, and that only the interests of the American/Israeli people in the situation are legitimate. That is exactly the mindset that I have a problem with: Start with the assumption that the goals of the United States fulfill some "greater good" in the Middle East, and then view any situation in the region through that prism.
 
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We supported Mubarak because he was willing to break with the Soviets and keep the peace with Israel. With Jordan and Egypt at peace with Israel, that only left Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians.

Mubarak reduced tensions in the ME. So tell me how that makes him such a bad guy?

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

This is not a surprising response from somebody who cares little about the rights or well beings of other individual humans. The rights you enjoy and the rights your children enjoy could not be found under Mubarak. He tortured and murdered people for speaking out, arrested children under terrorism laws and violated almost every fundamental right that creates our modern society. People where scared to speak out. They where not allowed to think or feel differently to what the regime told them.

Mubarak was an old cold war relic. It disgusts me that you put your own interests over the well beings of other people.
 
This is not a surprising response from somebody who cares little about the rights or well beings of other individual humans. The rights you enjoy and the rights your children enjoy could not be found under Mubarak. He tortured and murdered people for speaking out, arrested children under terrorism laws and violated almost every fundamental right that creates our modern society. People where scared to speak out. They where not allowed to think or feel differently to what the regime told them.

Mubarak was an old cold war relic. It disgusts me that you put your own interests over the well beings of other people.

If you compare the freedoms, economies, human rights abuses, etc. between installed "strong arm" governments and US installed "strong arm" governments, universally the people have fared better under the US

Thats the bottom line
 
Useful qualities for the United States, perhaps. Not so much for the Egyptian people.

Pretty much.

I agree that it's always good to work with foreign leaders, whether dictators or democrats, to promote peaceful outcomes to problems. With that said, the implication of what you are saying is that the wishes of the Egyptian people are insane, and that only the interests of the American/Israeli people in the situation are legitimate. That is exactly the mindset that I have a problem with: Start with the assumption that the goals of the United States fulfill some "greater good" in the Middle East, and then view any situation in the region through that prism.

I don't have that viewpoint at all. The wars with Israel were against the interests of the Egyptian people. They always ended in failure and cost Egypt territory. The Sinai was retaken only once the leadership got a clue and used negotiation not violence. On the flip side, I think that the U.S. should use aid money to strongarm Israel into getting rid of the settlements. I agree with Nasser nationalizing the canal and it was a high point in cold war diplomacy when we blackmailed France, Britain and Israel when they tried to take it back.
 
I think that the U.S. should use aid money to strongarm Israel into getting rid of the settlements.

Why? Lets face it, the winner makes the rules

Also, Israel has never declared war against its Muslim neighbors, including Iran, sworn to destroy them, and kill or drive everyone into the sea. Israel has not sent terrorists over their borders to kill civilians and deliberately target the most helpless.
 
If you compare the freedoms, economies, human rights abuses, etc. between installed "strong arm" governments and US installed "strong arm" governments, universally the people have fared better under the US

Thats the bottom line

Is that supposed to mean something to me? :roll:
 
Is that supposed to mean something to me? :roll:

To be brutally honest...I only care about is * insert country* not killing Americans, hurting our national interests or providing aid and support to our enemies. If that means a dictator in charge that keeps, the population in check, then I'm happy with said dixtator in charge, I'm good with that

Remember, a tribal thinking population doesn't respect or want freedom, they want stability and a strong guy at the top.
 
Why? Lets face it, the winner makes the rules

Also, Israel has never declared war against its Muslim neighbors, including Iran, sworn to destroy them, and kill or drive everyone into the sea. Israel has not sent terrorists over their borders to kill civilians and deliberately target the most helpless.

Israel has killed far more Palestinians than vice versa. Whether they were "deliberately targeted" or not doesn't matter much to the families of the dead. Just like you're perfectly fine with "collateral damage" if it advances Israel's policy goals, many Arabs view what Hamas does in exactly the same light.
 
To be brutally honest...I only care about is * insert country* not killing Americans, hurting our national interests or providing aid and support to our enemies. If that means a dictator in charge that keeps, the population in check, then I'm happy with said dixtator in charge, I'm good with that

Remember, a tribal thinking population doesn't respect or want freedom, they want stability and a strong guy at the top.

Looks like the tribal-thinking populations of the Middle East are proving you wrong every day, by sacrificing stability, protesting for freedom, and seeking to depose their strong guy at the top.

Or did you intend for the "tribal-thinking population" comment to apply to yourself? Because you certainly sound like you don't respect freedom, and want stability with a strong guy at the top.
 
To be brutally honest...I only care about is * insert country* not killing Americans, hurting our national interests or providing aid and support to our enemies. If that means a dictator in charge that keeps, the population in check, then I'm happy with said dixtator in charge, I'm good with that

Remember, a tribal thinking population doesn't respect or want freedom, they want stability and a strong guy at the top.

Well that is an ignorant thing to say since Egyptians are not "tribal thinking" people. Mubarak may have served his purpose but to defend the guy is not right. I think in the end freedom is more important than our own interests.
 
unlikely, first he'd need to have one.
 
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