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Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

Isn't it flawed to say that a substance which is intentionally made to be an irritant causes reactions? That's the whole point of OC... If it didn't have any effects, you might as well use a squirt gun on people. :2razz:

Link that it works by causing an allergic reaction? It works because it's a natural skin irritant. A fatal allergic reaction can include full out anaphylactic shock.

@ Oscar -- I supported the coppers earlier in this thread and happened to think about the allergic reaction possibility. To say the only two choices were nothing and pepper spray is a little extreme, no?
 
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Link that it works by causing an allergic reaction? It works because it's a natural skin irritant. A fatal allergic reaction can include full out anaphylactic shock.

@ Oscar -- I supported the coppers earlier in this thread and happened to think about the allergic reaction possibility. To say the only two choices were nothing and pepper spray is a little extreme, no?

Your article only mentioned 1 in 100 people having some sort of "reaction." I'd call swollen eyes, closed throat and burning skin a "reaction" wouldn't you? There are no documented cases I know of where OC spray alone caused a fatality in an otherwise healthy human being. Can you prove otherwise?

Maggie, I'll lay out the same scenario for you that I did for apdst ealier in the thread:

You are in your house minding your own business, when you hear screams from outside. You run out the front door to see your own child being attacked by a young neighbor boy wielding a stabbing implement of some sort. Your child is on the ground about to be seriously hurt or perhaps killed. The aggressor spots you and makes a taunting remark. You have seconds to react. What do you do to deescalate the situation?

Now, you don’t actually have to answer that, but my point here is that you don’t bother to ask the kid his age. You DON’T try to do anything that would make the situation more dangerous. You try to resolve the situation as effectively and quickly as possible given the means at your disposal. Now put yourself in the officers’ shoes. You’re in a similar situation, but you have a tactical belt with OC spray, possibly a taser and a firearm. Which do you employ to defuse the situation?

Sure, you could try to tackle the kid, but he’s already threatened you. What if you hurt him in the struggle? Worse, what if he manages to get one of those tools off your belt and use it against you?

You could shoot him for advancing on you with a potentially deadly weapon. Officers have done it before in similar situations, but I think we can both agree this is probably not the best choice here.

You could taser him, but we all know how much the media loves a tasering story, and there have been certain reports that that amount of electrical shock can be dangerous to younger individuals

…or you could OC spray him. His eyes will water and burn, his skin will turn red, but he’ll drop the weapon and likely not put up much more of a struggle. It takes a very determined attacker to keep up an offense after being sprayed, and as soon as he’s disarmed you can take him outside to the paramedics. He’ll be fine in an hour at most and no one got hurt.
 
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Link that it works by causing an allergic reaction? It works because it's a natural skin irritant. A fatal allergic reaction can include full out anaphylactic shock.

@ Oscar -- I supported the coppers earlier in this thread and happened to think about the allergic reaction possibility. To say the only two choices were nothing and pepper spray is a little extreme, no?

Some people do have allergic reactions to pepper spray and it has been known to actually cause death from choking. For most people it just sucks really bad.

*Edit:

To clarify, I am not anti-pepper spray or anti-taser, but both have the risk of causing death. However, if used properly, they should really only be used when absolutely necessary anyway.
 
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Your article only mentioned 1 in 100 people having some sort of "reaction." I'd call swollen eyes, closed throat and burning skin a "reaction" wouldn't you? There are no documented cases I know of where OC spray alone caused a fatality in an otherwise healthy human being. Can you prove otherwise?

Maggie, I'll lay out the same scenario for you that I did for apdst ealier in the thread:

here:

http://www.aclu-sc.org/attach/p/Pepper_Spray_New_Questions.pdf
 

Intersting read, but you can't even get beyond the first page without the red flags raising. 16,000 uses of OC spray and only 26 deaths? First of all that's a far from terrible track record even if every single one of those 26 were caused by the OC alone, but the article goes on to say that it can't prove ANY of them were.

Half of the victims were placed in a controversial police restraint called the hog-tie just after they were pepper-sprayed and just before they died. In half of all cases, the types of police restraint techniques used were was identified as contributing to the cause of death or the primary cause of death..

...drugs and alcohol were involved in 24 of the 26 cases


Below is the strongest statement that they can come up with and even that isn't very conclusive

In a 1994 paper, the Cal-EPA’s Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment (OEHHA) concluded that, “although it is clear that the medical examiners have thus far not made an association between OC use and these deaths, we are still concerned that in each incident, untoward reactions to OC may have been a contributing cause of death or exacerbated underlying conditions such as pre-existing disease or drug use, to cause cardiac or respiratory failure.”


Here's a pretty fair take on it, but still no proof of deaths caused solely by the OC on totally healthy individuals.

The European Parliament Scientific and Technological Options Assessment (STOA) published in 1998 “An Appraisal of Technologies of Political Control”[5] with extensive information on pepper spray and tear gas. They write:

"The effects of pepper spray are far more severe, including temporary blindness which lasts from 15-30 minutes, a burning sensation of the skin which lasts from 45 to 60 minutes, upper body spasms which force a person to bend forward and uncontrollable coughing making it difficult to breathe or speak for between 3 to 15 minutes."
For those with asthma, taking other drugs, or subject to restraining techniques which restrict the breathing passages, there is a risk of death. The Los Angeles Times has reported at least 61 deaths associated with police use of pepper spray since 1990 in the USA,.[6] The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) documented 27 people in police custody who died after exposure to pepper spray in California since 1993.[2][7][8] However, the ACLU report counts any death occurring within hours of exposure to pepper spray. In all 27 cases, the coroners' report listed other factors as the primary cause of death, though in some cases the use of pepper spray may have been a contributing factor.[2]

The US Army concluded in a 1993 Aberdeen Proving Ground study that pepper spray could cause "Mutagenic effects, carcinogenic effects, sensitization, cardiovascular and pulmonary toxicity, neurotoxicity, as well as possible human fatalities. There is a risk in using this product on a large and varied population".[9] However, the pepper spray was widely approved in the US despite the reservations of the US military scientists after it passed FBI tests in 1991. As of 1999, it was in use by more than 2000 public safety agencies.[10]

Pepper spray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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This situation makes a great case for the need to thin the herd from time to time.

Procreation, much like voting or operating heavy machinery, should require a college degree and a license.
 
This situation makes a great case for the need to thin the herd from time to time.

Procreation, much like voting or operating heavy machinery, should require a college degree and a license.

Better cops and better kids... bi-winning.
 
This situation makes a great case for the need to thin the herd from time to time.

Procreation, much like voting or operating heavy machinery, should require a college degree and a license.

The real issue is that usually the uneducated are the ones breeding the most.
 
Intersting read, but you can't even get beyond the first page without the red flags raising. 16,000 uses of OC spray and only 26 deaths? First of all that's a far from terrible track record even if every single one of those 26 were caused by the OC alone, but the article goes on to say that it can't prove ANY of them were.






Below is the strongest statement that they can come up with and even that isn't very conclusive




Here's a pretty fair take on it, but still no proof of deaths caused solely by the OC on totally healthy individuals.



Pepper spray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

true....but do yuou really expect an ME to rule that pepper spray was the cause of the death? reminds me of the case in indiana where the 15 yr old was searched, handcuffed (behind his back) and somehow was able to shoot himself in the head while sitting in the back of a police car. ruled a suicide.
 
my kid wouldn't be breaking trim off the damn wall and trying to attack people with it. blame the frakin parents (or more likely parent) not the cops.

Ultimately, I blame the faculty.
 
true....but do yuou really expect an ME to rule that pepper spray was the cause of the death? reminds me of the case in indiana where the 15 yr old was searched, handcuffed (behind his back) and somehow was able to shoot himself in the head while sitting in the back of a police car. ruled a suicide.

I'd expect some random organization who violently opposes the use of pepper spray to be able to find the one needle in the haystack, but even the ACLU can't confirm that the exposure to pepper spray was the cause of death in any of the listed cases. I do give the report extra points for being open and honest about that fact though. Again, all-in-all an interesting read.
 
Link that it works by causing an allergic reaction? It works because it's a natural skin irritant. A fatal allergic reaction can include full out anaphylactic shock.

@ Oscar -- I supported the coppers earlier in this thread and happened to think about the allergic reaction possibility. To say the only two choices were nothing and pepper spray is a little extreme, no?

so what other choice would you suggest? whatever it is, there will be some crybaby handwringer who will say the cops should have done something different. and there's the kicker. they will complain, no matter what action the cops take.
 
Anyone but the child and parent, right? It's gotta be the cops, or the teacher, or daytime television!

The parent wasn't on the scene and the child isn't expected to know better. Are 8 y/o supposed to act like adults, now?
 
The parent wasn't on the scene and the child isn't expected to know better. Are 8 y/o supposed to act like adults, now?

This was the THIRD time the police had to come out to the school for this child. Do you really believe the parent was unaware? My two year old knows that it's not acceptable to throw things or hit people...and you think an 8 year old doesn't?

Chalking this up to anything but a spoiled brat without a strong parental figure is just pants-on-head ridiculous.
 
Ultimately, I blame the faculty.

you blame the faculty because the kid is an undisciplined POS? like I told a mother my first year of teaching when she wanted me to teach her brat to behave, "I cannot do in a semester, one hour a day, what you have failed to do in 14 years"
 
The faculty is too inept to handle a child throwing a **** fit? Really?

more likely they were afraid mommy would sue them and the school board if they tried to restrain her little darling.

and the point is, the kid should never have been throwing a **** fit in the first place, IF...mommy had been doing her job.
 
This was the THIRD time the police had to come out to the school for this child. Do you really believe the parent was unaware? My two year old knows that it's not acceptable to throw things or hit people...and you think an 8 year old doesn't?

Chalking this up to anything but a spoiled brat without a strong parental figure is just pants-on-head ridiculous.

They shouldn't have had to show up the first two times.
 
more likely they were afraid mommy would sue them and the school board if they tried to restrain her little darling.

and the point is, the kid should never have been throwing a **** fit in the first place, IF...mommy had been doing her job.

That's why my kids's teachers have my permission to light their asses up, if they step out of line. They don't have permission to call the cops in to spray chemicals in their eyes.
 
They shouldn't have had to show up the first two times.

So, now you think the police should not have to answer a dispatch call? This line of logic is border-line asinine.

The school should have to do what a parent is not willing to do?

I pay a teacher's salary to teach my kid reading, writing and arithmetic. I DON'T pay a teachers salary so they can instill their values of right and wrong in my child. That's my job as a parent.
 
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That's why my kids's teachers have my permission to light their asses up, if they step out of line. They don't have permission to call the cops in to spray chemicals in their eyes.

and that's why your kids know how to behave, you give a ****. obviously this woman doesn't or her kid wouldn't be a little turd.
 
The parent wasn't on the scene and the child isn't expected to know better. Are 8 y/o supposed to act like adults, now?

Ok, now I'll say it... you're a lousy parent if you think that an 8 yr old 'isn't supposed to know better' than to act like this kid did.
 
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