Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

apdst · Apr 7, 2011

Zyphlin said:
Well, obviously it must be the case. Apdst said so. :roll:

So, what do you do for a living?

I go back to my original statement. If this was my kid, those cops would have to be defending themselves from a pissed off and experienced 42 y/o and see what they're made of.

apdst · Apr 7, 2011

Zyphlin said:
I'll call it what the officers that actually saw it called it, which was a foot long piece of wood with a knife-like point. But I forgot, apdst's godly dominance over all things dealing with children apparently also gives him unquestionable claivoyance into scenes of the past and you obviously know what it really was

Why is that you seem to resort to personal attacks so quickly?

Ikari · Apr 7, 2011

Zyphlin said:
He was swinging with something that apparently was deemed able to do significant harm.

I'm not necessarily condemning the police action, but I wouldn't believe this statement for a second. I don't think an 8 year old can do "significant harm" with a piece of wood trim.

roguenuke · Apr 7, 2011

apdst said:
Any cop that can't defend himself from a piece of wooden wall trim, in the hands of an 8 y/o probably shouldn't be a cop and carrying a firearm.

And you still fail to address the "least amount of harm to everyone involved". There is little way to prevent any damage to either party, especially when one of the party is 8 years old and the other is, hopefully, restraining themselves to try to prevent too much harm to the 8yo, if the situation becomes physical, like you are suggesting should have been done. Pepper spray provided the best method to defuse the situation because it provided the least amount of likely harm to everyone involved, including the 8 yo. It is not whether or not the cops could restrain the 8 yo in another way, because it is almost certain that just one of them could have taken the kid down physically. Doing so, however, would have likely resulted in more injuries to the kid than the pepper spray caused and probably would have also resulted in at least some minor injury/injuries to one or more of the officers.

Ikari · Apr 7, 2011

Zyphlin said:
I'll call it what the officers that actually saw it called it, which was a foot long piece of wood with a knife-like point.

A knife like point? Come on, we've all seen splintered wood before. It can be pointy and kinda sharp, you may even be able to puncture the skin a bit if you're not an 8 year old kid. I wouldn't put it past the police to embellish a little here and make it seem like the boy was a bit more of a threat than he actually was.

Zyphlin · Apr 7, 2011

apdst said:
So, what do you do for a living?

None of your business, nor nothing to do with my earlier comments.

I go back to my original statement. If this was my kid, those cops would have to be defending themselves from a pissed off and experienced 42 y/o and see what they're made of.

Then your ass would be in jail where it deserves to be. The fact you'd be pissed off more at the cops who took action against your child with something that won't bother him in a few hours rather than caring about the fact that your child just threatened multiple people, destroyed property, and attacked a variety of individuals speaks volumes.

apdst · Apr 7, 2011

roguenuke said:
And you still fail to address the "least amount of harm to everyone involved". There is little way to prevent any damage to either party, especially when one of the party is 8 years old and the other is, hopefully, restraining themselves to try to prevent too much harm to the 8yo, if the situation becomes physical, like you are suggesting should have been done. Pepper spray provided the best method to defuse the situation because it provided the least amount of likely harm to everyone involved, including the 8 yo. It is not whether or not the cops could restrain the 8 yo in another way, because it is almost certain that just one of them could have taken the kid down physically. Doing so, however, would have likely resulted in more injuries to the kid than the pepper spray caused and probably would have also resulted in at least some minor injury/injuries to one or more of the officers.

Basic Parenting 101: They should reached over, disarmed the kid, then let him pitch a fit until he ran out of energy.

Zyphlin · Apr 7, 2011

apdst said:
Why is that you seem to resort to personal attacks so quickly?

Its not a personal attack, its sarcastically dealing with the ridiculous way you're speaking about this in this thread.

Ikari · Apr 7, 2011

roguenuke said:
And you still fail to address the "least amount of harm to everyone involved". There is little way to prevent any damage to either party, especially when one of the party is 8 years old and the other is, hopefully, restraining themselves to try to prevent too much harm to the 8yo, if the situation becomes physical, like you are suggesting should have been done. Pepper spray provided the best method to defuse the situation because it provided the least amount of likely harm to everyone involved, including the 8 yo. It is not whether or not the cops could restrain the 8 yo in another way, because it is almost certain that just one of them could have taken the kid down physically. Doing so, however, would have likely resulted in more injuries to the kid than the pepper spray caused and probably would have also resulted in at least some minor injury/injuries to one or more of the officers.

BTW, if cops cannot take control of an 8 year old without "likely resulting in more injuries to the kid", then maybe they suck and should be doing a desk job. I mean, it's a kid, you can manhandle one pretty damned well without actually hurting them. I think that if cops are trained to take down fully grown adults, it's not a problem to handle a kid without significant increases to the risk of injury to the kid.

Zyphlin · Apr 7, 2011

Ikari said:
A knife like point? Come on, we've all seen splintered wood before. It can be pointy and kinda sharp, you may even be able to puncture the skin a bit if you're not an 8 year old kid. I wouldn't put it past the police to embellish a little here and make it seem like the boy was a bit more of a threat than he actually was.

And you know what, you may be right. Which is why I stated first hand I'd hope the office would review this appropriately. But its a stretch to go from suggesting that perhaps they're embellishing to just outright making it out to be something completely benign. A sharpened piece of wood can absolutely puncture the skin, significantly, even from an "8 year old kid". Even beyond that you have the whole issue of having an enraged kid that is obviously not just going to sit there while you try to "grab his arm and spank his ass", which in and of itself can lead to a tussle which could result in injury to the kid.

Not only would such a situation open the kid to FAR more harm than pepper spray would, but it opens the police to far more liability and potential damage meaning that's money that is costing the tax payers.

I see no reason for such a situation to occur as opposed to what happened...try to talk the kid down, try to get the situation deescalated non-violently, and if that's not possible take the action that's the least likely to put any party in harms way.

apdst · Apr 7, 2011

Zyphlin said:
None of your business, nor nothing to do with my earlier comments.

You asked as to my elvel of training in dealing with kid of situation, so I think it's only fair that you tell us what real world experience you have to say that I'm full of ****. You demand everyone else's bone fides, but don't have the nerve to give us your's?

Then your ass would be in jail where it deserves to be. The fact you'd be pissed off more at the cops who took action against your child with something that won't bother him in a few hours rather than caring about the fact that your child just threatened multiple people, destroyed property, and attacked a variety of individuals speaks volumes.

You're probably right. I would well accept that, too. I would accept it, with the probability that there's not a jury in this state that would convict me of a crime. By that same token, there probably aren't that many dumbass cops in Louisiana, either lowering the odds of this happening to my kids.

apdst · Apr 7, 2011

Zyphlin said:
Its not a personal attack, its sarcastically dealing with the ridiculous way you're speaking about this in this thread.

It's bascially all you have.

Zyphlin · Apr 7, 2011

Ikari said:
BTW, if cops cannot take control of an 8 year old without "likely resulting in more injuries to the kid", then maybe they suck and should be doing a desk job. I mean, it's a kid, you can manhandle one pretty damned well without actually hurting them. I think that if cops are trained to take down fully grown adults, it's not a problem to handle a kid without significant increases to the risk of injury to the kid.

In part the amount of pressure you exert on a full grown adult male and a child can result in different results. Additionally, do you think with an adult that is acting extremely enraged and crazed is a cop trained to attempt to engage with that individual physically or with some alternative means to stop them? I'd love to hear Goshin or one of our actual LEO's comment on that.

What are the chances of serious bodily harm to the child or to the officer from the use of Pepper Spray?

What are the chances of serious bodily harm to the child or to the office from the use of force?

Is one a higher chance than the other? If so, why would you suggest to use the one that has a higher chance of that?

apdst · Apr 7, 2011

Zyphlin said:
In part the amount of pressure you exert on a full grown adult male and a child can result in different results. Additionally, do you think with an adult that is acting extremely enraged and crazed is a cop trained to attempt to engage with that individual physically or with some alternative means to stop them? I'd love to hear Goshin or one of our actual LEO's comment on that.

What are the chances of serious bodily harm to the child or to the officer from the use of Pepper Spray?

What are the chances of serious bodily harm to the child or to the office from the use of force?

Is one a higher chance than the other? If so, why would you suggest to use the one that has a higher chance of that?

The cops took it to the next level. That's what they did wrong.

Zyphlin · Apr 7, 2011

apdst said:
You asked as to my elvel of training in dealing with kid of situation, so I think it's only fair that you tell us what real world experience you have to say that I'm full of ****.

I asked if people had any, I didn't ask for specifics because I don't have any desire to know specific personal information about people. Notice I didn't ask you for yours. Yes, I have significant experience dealing with self defense issues, including those with regards to weapons or attempts to subdue, and have spent significant time around law enforcement. No, I'm not going into specifics nor am I asking you to go into specifics. You don't believe me, that's fine. The answer wasn't directed solely at you, or even initiated because of your post. Your statements already showed me everything I needed to know with regards to the legitimatacy of your knowledge, views, or skills regarding it.

Zyphlin · Apr 7, 2011

apdst said:
The cops took it to the next level. That's what they did wrong.

Took what to the "next level"? You bolded my comment about pepper spray yet your statement doesn't address it in the least.

The kid was throwing furniture, threatening people, and apparently not being successfully talked down. Naturally they either had to 1) do something or 2) do nothing.

YOUR answer is to "grab his arm and spank his ass". Which would appear to suggest that they should've got physical. So I ask again, what had the larger chance of causing bodily harm that would last more than a day...the pepper spray or physically engaging the child?

roguenuke · Apr 7, 2011

apdst said:
Basic Parenting 101: They should reached over, disarmed the kid, then let him pitch a fit until he ran out of energy.

His "fits" involved damage and destruction to school property and trying to attack his teacher and fellow classmates. That isn't the kind of fit that you just let go on, especially not in a classroom. And this is an 8 year old, not a 4 year old. I wouldn't even allow my 3 year old to just "pitch a fit til he ran out of energy" do so if he was causing damage to other people's property or disrupting other people. That is stupid and not any better parenting than physically punishing him for the fit or trying to bribe him to stop.

I am willing, as a parent, to be bit or hit or other minor injuries to myself to restrain my child from a violent tantrum that could harm others, but that doesn't mean that I would expect other adults, even cops, to sustain such injuries from my child's tantrum if their method caused as little harm as pepper spray does 99% of the time. I would, in fact, prefer that a cop used pepper spray on my 8 year old (if my child were that age) rather than try to just physically restrain him and hope that neither the cop nor my child accidentally got hurt because of his violent fit.

apdst · Apr 7, 2011

Zyphlin said:
I asked if people had any, I didn't ask for specifics because I don't have any desire to know specific personal information about people.

I wasn't asking for specifics, either. You could have simply answered that you do, or don't have any kind of training with this sort of thing. Don't be so sensitive. I don't give **** about you that much.

Notice I didn't ask you for yours. Yes, I have significant experience dealing with self defense issues, including those with regards to weapons or attempts to subdue, and have spent significant time around law enforcement. No, I'm not going into specifics nor am I asking you to go into specifics. You don't believe me, that's fine. The answer wasn't directed solely at you, or even initiated because of your post. Your statements already showed me everything I needed to know with regards to the legitimatacy of your knowledge, views, or skills regarding it.

In that case, you should know that an officer is trained not to take things to the next level, because with each progression, that's one less option left to employ in dealing with the situation.

What if the pepper spray didn't do the trick? Then what, shoot him?

apdst · Apr 7, 2011

roguenuke said:
His "fits" involved damage and destruction to school property and trying to attack his teacher and fellow classmates. That isn't the kind of fit that you just let go on, especially not in a classroom. And this is an 8 year old, not a 4 year old. I wouldn't even allow my 3 year old to just "pitch a fit til he ran out of energy" do so if he was causing damage to other people's property or disrupting other people. That is stupid and not any better parenting than physically punishing him for the fit or trying to bribe him to stop.

I am willing, as a parent, to be bit or hit or other minor injuries to myself to restrain my child from a violent tantrum that could harm others, but that doesn't mean that I would expect other adults, even cops, to sustain such injuries from my child's tantrum if their method caused as little harm as pepper spray does 99% of the time. I would, in fact, prefer that a cop used pepper spray on my 8 year old (if my child were that age) rather than try to just physically restrain him and hope that neither the cop nor my child accidentally got hurt because of his violent fit.

Do you understand what, "isolate", means?

Zyphlin · Apr 7, 2011

And seriously, "pitch a fit till they run out of energy" when they're stomping around, yelling and screaming in their home is one thing. If they're tossing around expensive electronics, destroying public property, and threatening people with the intent of harm then you're looking at something a little bit more than a "fit".

And again, apdst shows my point when he apparently describes disarming of anyone as a process of just "reaching over" and doing it.

apdst · Apr 7, 2011

Zyphlin said:
And seriously, "pitch a fit till they run out of energy" when they're stomping around, yelling and screaming in their home is one thing. If they're tossing around expensive electronics, destroying public property, and threatening people with the intent of harm then you're looking at something a little bit more than a "fit".

And again, apdst shows my point when he apparently describes disarming of anyone as a process of just "reaching over" and doing it.

Was he throwing stuff, or was he trying to stab someone? An 8 y/o can't do both?

Obviously, you don't know what, "isolate", means, either.

These cops were either too lazy, or too stupid to handle this situation properly.

Zyphlin · Apr 7, 2011

apdst said:
In that case, you should know that an officer is trained not to take things to the next level, because with each progression, that's one less option left to employ in dealing with the situation.

What if the pepper spray didn't do the trick? Then what, shoot him?

Then by all means, if the pepper spray doesn't work then move into attempt it physically.

Are you seriously suggesting that an Officer will never resort to force unless the other side resorts to force? So if someone just begins to walk away from a scene of an incident a Police Officer should just kind of let them go because hey, that person didn't "take it to the next level" so obviously the police officer can't either. Obviously if a guy is threatening other people and the officer has a chance to subdue him the officer shouldn't becasue the kid didn't "take it to the next level" and attack the cop so the cop can't do anything.

Sorry, I'll be happy to wait for one of the known officers on the site like Goshin or Caine to come by and state verify that apparently a Cop's not allowed to "take it to the next level" unless the other person does the same type of thing first.

Ikari · Apr 7, 2011

Zyphlin said:
And you know what, you may be right. Which is why I stated first hand I'd hope the office would review this appropriately. But its a stretch to go from suggesting that perhaps they're embellishing to just outright making it out to be something completely benign. A sharpened piece of wood can absolutely puncture the skin, significantly, even from an "8 year old kid". Even beyond that you have the whole issue of having an enraged kid that is obviously not just going to sit there while you try to "grab his arm and spank his ass", which in and of itself can lead to a tussle which could result in injury to the kid.

Not only would such a situation open the kid to FAR more harm than pepper spray would, but it opens the police to far more liability and potential damage meaning that's money that is costing the tax payers.

I see no reason for such a situation to occur as opposed to what happened...try to talk the kid down, try to get the situation deescalated non-violently, and if that's not possible take the action that's the least likely to put any party in harms way.

I don't really buy any of that. It does not take too much force to pick a kid up.

Whovian · Apr 7, 2011

apdst said:
Call it what it is, a piece of wood. :rofl

yeah, this could never hurt anyone, huh

Ikari · Apr 7, 2011

Zyphlin said:
In part the amount of pressure you exert on a full grown adult male and a child can result in different results. Additionally, do you think with an adult that is acting extremely enraged and crazed is a cop trained to attempt to engage with that individual physically or with some alternative means to stop them? I'd love to hear Goshin or one of our actual LEO's comment on that.

What are the chances of serious bodily harm to the child or to the officer from the use of Pepper Spray?

What are the chances of serious bodily harm to the child or to the office from the use of force?

Is one a higher chance than the other? If so, why would you suggest to use the one that has a higher chance of that?

Yeah, what are those numbers? What are you assuming as "use of force"? You don't seem to have any of that, why would you suggest that my way has the higher chance when you don't actually know any of the numbers yourself?