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Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

apdst said:
Self defense? Against an 8 y/o?
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An 8 year old with a weapon can be as deadly as an 18 year old. To think otherwise is naïve. If I’m being attacked I’m not going to bother to card someone to determine my appropriate response.

apdst said:
Out of control, poorly parented kids aren't anything new. 30 years ago, when I was in grade school, teachers didn't need cops, tasers, nor pepper spray to keep kids in line.

I don't see this just as a case of crappy parenting. I also see this as a case of crappy teaching.
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The teacher got all the other children to safety and prevented the hooligan from injuring anyone. I call that a good job. In case you haven’t noticed, teachers today can’t discipline children like they used to, and that’s not by their choice. However, the teacher did everything she could considering the circumstances and I still say the kid deserved a face full of OC. It’s not a teacher’s responsibility to teach a child appropriate behavior, that’s called parenting. ;)
 
I have yet to see anyone who is saying that the cops' response was a bad one give an alternative that was likely to work and cause potentially less damage to the child. Anyone have a realistic suggestion?

I think the cops did the right thing here and the mother needs to accept it and do a better job at parenting her son instead of parading him around like a victim.
 
theangryamerican said:
An 8 year old with a weapon can be as deadly as an 18 year old. To think otherwise is naïve. If I’m being attacked I’m not going to bother to card someone to determine my appropriate response.
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It would take a sorry excuse of a person, to feel threatened by and 8 y/o, with a knife.



The teacher got all the other children to safety and prevented the hooligan from injuring anyone. I call that a good job. In case you haven’t noticed, teachers today can’t discipline children like they used to, and that’s not by their choice. However, the teacher did everything she could considering the circumstances and I still say the kid deserved a face full of OC.
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The teacher should have been more involved with defusing the situation, rather than doing nothing and allowing it to grow totally out of control.


It’s not a teacher’s responsibility to teach a child appropriate behavior, that’s called parenting. ;)
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And, there's what's wrong...right there.
 
roguenuke said:
I have yet to see anyone who is saying that the cops' response was a bad one give an alternative that was likely to work and cause potentially less damage to the child. Anyone have a realistic suggestion?

I think the cops did the right thing here and the mother needs to accept it and do a better job at parenting her son instead of parading him around like a victim.
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Yeah, grab his arm and spank his little ass.
 
apdst said:
It would take a sorry excuse of a person, to feel threatened by and 8 y/o, with a knife.
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Picture this scenario: You are in your house minding your own business, when you hear screams from outside. You run out the front door to see your own child being attacked by a young neighbor boy wielding a stabbing implement of some sort. Your child is on the ground about to be seriously hurt or perhaps killed. The aggressor spots you and makes a taunting remark. You have seconds to react. What do you do to deescalate the situation?

Now, you don’t actually have to answer that, but my point here is that you don’t bother to ask the kid his age. You DON’T try to do anything that would make the situation more dangerous. You try to resolve the situation as effectively and quickly as possible given the means at your disposal. Now put yourself in the officers’ shoes. You’re in a similar situation, but you have a tactical belt with OC spray, possibly a taser and a firearm. Which do you employ to defuse the situation?

Sure, you could try to tackle the kid, but he’s already threatened you. What if you hurt him in the struggle? Worse, what if he manages to get one of those tools off your belt and use it against you?

You could shoot him for advancing on you with a potentially deadly weapon. Officers have done it before in similar situations, but I think we can both agree this is probably not the best choice here.

You could taser him, but we all know how much the media loves a tasering story, and there have been certain reports that that amount of electrical shock can be dangerous to younger individuals

…or you could OC spray him. His eyes will water and burn, his skin will turn red, but he’ll drop the weapon and likely not put up much more of a struggle. It takes a very determined attacker to keep up an offense after being sprayed, and as soon as he’s disarmed you can take him outside to the paramedics. He’ll be fine in an hour at most and no one got hurt.



apdst said:
The teacher should have been more involved with defusing the situation, rather than doing nothing and allowing it to grow totally out of control.
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This wasn’t the first time the kid had done this, clearly his parents didn’t care enough to put the fear of God in him when he got home after the first two incidents. This is not the teachers fault. What could she have done differently?


apdst said:
And, there's what's wrong...right there.
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Precisely, it’s not a teacher’s job to parent.
 
apdst said:
Yeah, grab his arm and spank his little ass.
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THAT would get the police officers sued. Seriously...are you tracking the kind of violent child we are talking about?
 
apdst said:
Out of control, poorly parented kids aren't anything new. 30 years ago, when I was in grade school, teachers didn't need cops, tasers, nor pepper spray to keep kids in line.

I don't see this just as a case of crappy parenting. I also see this as a case of crappy teaching.
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brother...I dont think you have a realistic idea of the type of child we are talking about. Crappy teaching, crappy parenting...immaterial when you are the outside provider called in to deal with the situation. We arent talking about some snot nosed little brat with an attitude. As a police officer...you grab the child with sifficient force to restrain him and you are likely to be breaking bones.
 
theangryamerican said:
Picture this scenario: You are in your house minding your own business, when you hear screams from outside. You run out the front door to see your own child being attacked by a young neighbor boy wielding a stabbing implement of some sort. Your child is on the ground about to be seriously hurt or perhaps killed. The aggressor spots you and makes a taunting remark. You have seconds to react. What do you do to deescalate the situation?

Now, you don’t actually have to answer that, but my point here is that you don’t bother to ask the kid his age. You DON’T try to do anything that would make the situation more dangerous. You try to resolve the situation as effectively and quickly as possible given the means at your disposal. Now put yourself in the officers’ shoes. You’re in a similar situation, but you have a tactical belt with OC spray, possibly a taser and a firearm. Which do you employ to defuse the situation?

Sure, you could try to tackle the kid, but he’s already threatened you. What if you hurt him in the struggle? Worse, what if he manages to get one of those tools off your belt and use it against you?

You could shoot him for advancing on you with a potentially deadly weapon. Officers have done it before in similar situations, but I think we can both agree this is probably not the best choice here.

You could taser him, but we all know how much the media loves a tasering story, and there have been certain reports that that amount of electrical shock can be dangerous to younger individuals

…or you could OC spray him. His eyes will water and burn, his skin will turn red, but he’ll drop the weapon and likely not put up much more of a struggle. It takes a very determined attacker to keep up an offense after being sprayed, and as soon as he’s disarmed you can take him outside to the paramedics. He’ll be fine in an hour at most and no one got hurt.





This wasn’t the first time the kid had done this, clearly his parents didn’t care enough to put the fear of God in him when he got home after the first two incidents. This is not the teachers fault. What could she have done differently?




Precisely, it’s not a teacher’s job to parent.
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It's their job to teach. Teach kids how to behave. It's why kids get graded on behavior.
 
VanceMack said:
brother...I dont think you have a realistic idea of the type of child we are talking about. Crappy teaching, crappy parenting...immaterial when you are the outside provider called in to deal with the situation. We arent talking about some snot nosed little brat with an attitude. As a police officer...you grab the child with sifficient force to restrain him and you are likely to be breaking bones.
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If he were 15, I would agree, but he's 8 and a snot nosed little brat with an attitude is exactly what he is.
 
apdst said:
The teacher should have been more involved with defusing the situation, rather than doing nothing and allowing it to grow totally out of control.
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Ah, I see. You were a witness then. You saw everything that happened, and from your expert observational skills, came to that conclusion, eh?
 
I know, crappy teachers always lead to kids chucking TV's around the room and attempting to stab people.
 
Zyphlin said:
I know, crappy teachers always lead to kids chucking TV's around the room and attempting to stab people.
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How do you know that's not the case. Since my parenting career began, I've met some seriously sub-standard teachers.

Let's not put teachers on too high of a pedestal.
 
apdst said:
If he were 15, I would agree, but he's 8 and a snot nosed little brat with an attitude is exactly what he is.
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Well...I dont expect you to take my word for it...but you ought to try experiencing it firsthand a time or two. The cops are in a no-win situation. The most effective and NON VIOLENT (I dont know why folks cant see that) means of suppresing the kid was pepper spray. No physical contact needed...little dude went down by choice and stayed down. Cops didnt have to grab a wrist and worry about breaking arms, legs, bruising, etc. You likely know the effects of pepper spray. Other than a crappy taste in his mouth for a few weeks a snot covered face, kids fine after 20 minutes or so.
 
Whovian said:
Ah, I see. You were a witness then. You saw everything that happened, and from your expert observational skills, came to that conclusion, eh?
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What did the teacher do to defuse the situation, then?
 
VanceMack said:
Well...I dont expect you to take my word for it...but you ought to try experiencing it firsthand a time or two. The cops are in a no-win situation. The most effective and NON VIOLENT (I dont know why folks cant see that) means of suppresing the kid was pepper spray. No physical contact needed...little dude went down by choice and stayed down. Cops didnt have to grab a wrist and worry about breaking arms, legs, bruising, etc. You likely know the effects of pepper spray. Other than a crappy taste in his mouth for a few weeks a snot covered face, kids fine after 20 minutes or so.
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I have six kids. I'm quite sure that I can subdue an 8 y/o without pepper spray, or harming the child.
 
apdst said:
No..........................
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Then if an 8 y/o is capable of doing someone harm, the notion of self defense against one is plausable since the potential for threat is there.
 
theangryamerican said:
...protected the other behaving children from the threat.
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But, didn't attempt to defuse the situation, which would have been the most effective defense of the other kids. Right?
 
Zyphlin said:
Then if an 8 y/o is capable of doing someone harm, the notion of self defense against one is plausable since the potential for threat is there.
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But not the same threat level of an older child.
 
Zyphlin said:
Then if an 8 y/o is capable of doing someone harm, the notion of self defense against one is plausable since the potential for threat is there.
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No it's not. Come on. You really believe that an 8 year old is that dangerous? You know, here in Texas, if a parent was to pepper spray a kid, he or she would be doing hard time. Why does a cop get an exception to that? There are better ways to deal with unruly kids, and pepper spray is definitely not one of them. That cop should be fired.
 
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