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Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

Kali said:
This Pastor is an idiot racist ass....
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How does burning a copy of the Koran as a political protest make one a racist? If the reason for the burning is to draw attention to the idea that fundamentalist Muslims don't respect our laws and traditions, then how is that racist? :confused:

Kali said:
(W)hy is everybody ignoring the fact that he was warned by our GOV to not do this?
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I wonder if our government has a brain. It's under some sort of illusion that it can win hearts in minds in Afghanistan when there are more than 150,000 foreign troops in the country and we hit Pashtun tribesmen almost weekly through drone attacks and special operations raids. These people don't need any more excuses to kill foreigners.

Kali said:
He put our troops at risk with his nonsense.
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Obama put them at risk by upping the ante and more than doubling the number of American soldiers in the country. This is Obama's Vietnam.

Kali said:
Talk about what is important instead of trying to excuse this dumbass fools actions. How in the hell can any of you sit here and try to defend this man?
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The good reverend performed a public service by drawing attention to the fact that fundamentalist Muslims don't respect Western customs and political institutions. As we've seen in Europe, as soon as they get the numbers they push for Sharia. It's created considerable unnecessary tension in Europe, and I don't want to see the same sort of discussions going on there here in America. If Muslims want to worship and build mosques here, they can knock themselves out. Just don't try to tell me how to live my life. If I want to burn your book, I reserve the right to do it.
 
Many are confused about, the Taliban

The one thing that is very clear you cannot "talk" to the most radical of your enemies!

By the nature of the beast the Taliban cannot be reasoned with, they don't want our kind of peace, they are not for womens rights, education, a free market and overall equal rights, to them Islam is the only way and all of us that follow another path are wrong and must be destroyed.

How can you sit down and work up any kind of workable peace with folks like that let alone a viable government?

Lets step a little further...and back to my original premise regarding nation building (A-stan) We don't. We go in, kill those we want to kill and tell whatever leadership that survives or arises that the rules are simple... Play nice, don't **** with us and we'll leave you alone.

Totally against putting a government in power and then propping it up.
 
SE102 said:
He's likely one of the doubly idiotic idiots who thinks islam is a race. Now just because hes not right doesnt make him a racist. :lol:
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No, he just doesn't like anyone who is different from him in any way, whether it be religion, culture, sexual orientation, or whatever. Of course, there aren't very many people in the world who aren't different from this nutjob in one way or another.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
You are correct. In the US, his First Amendment rights allow him to, legally, burn the Koran. The question isn't whether he had the right... of course he did. The question is, does it make sense, it is the prudent thing to do? For example, you are a pedestrian walking across the street. The light is red, so you have the right of way. A car, not caring about the right of way, comes speeding your way. Do you keep walking, because you have the right of way... getting hit in the process?

Sometimes exercising your rights solely because you can is pretty stupid. Words and actions have consequences, even if the are a right or are legal.
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PeteEU, Sazerac, and Danahrea would want to charge the pedestrian with assult with a deadly weapon since he obviously took actions that were legal that resulted in the unfortunante consequences.
 
danarhea said:
If he knew in advance that burning a Koran would lead to murder, then yes, he is a murderer too. It's not much different than a Mafia Don saying that someone needs to be rubbed out, and then others go and do the killing for him. Technically, the Mafia Don is just as innocent as this hate mongering pastor.
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Oh you're ****ing kidding me.

So we just need someone to state "You know, if someone is burning a flag it may just make me or someone else want to murder them" and then you know what, if someone burns a flag and someone kills someone due to it we can just arrest the guy that burned the flag for murder!

I love your assbackwards way of making flag burning unconstitutional Dana. Breathtakingly deft.
 
The pastor's actions and reasons for it were dumb and bigoted. That doesn't excuse grown men making their own decisions deciding that some guy half the world away burning some paper was worthy of KILLING twelve people. That is on those men and no one else.
 
Dittohead not! said:
No, he just doesn't like anyone who is different from him in any way, whether it be religion, culture, sexual orientation, or whatever. Of course, there aren't very many people in the world who aren't different from this nutjob in one way or another.
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Yes, and we all know islamic radicals, who murder random people, are so inclusive

Again, the fact that you have so much rage against a guy exercising his rights, as opposed to the people murdering random strangers, perplexes me
 
ManofthPeephole said:
Yes, and we all know islamic radicals, who murder random people, are so inclusive

Again, the fact that you have so much rage against a guy exercising his rights, as opposed to the people murdering random strangers, perplexes me
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Perhaps because you don't understand that I'm saying that Reverend Nutter isn't all that different from the Muslim radicals. Both are religious nutters.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Perhaps because you don't understand that I'm saying that Reverend Nutter isn't all that different from the Muslim radicals. Both are religious nutters.
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Perhaps, but one is well more extreme than the other. There's a large difference in burning a book and killing a bunch of people because someone burned a book.
 
Ikari said:
Perhaps, but one is well more extreme than the other. There's a large difference in burning a book and killing a bunch of people because someone burned a book.
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Not so large when you know that burning the book will result in murders.

I'm sure Reverend Nutter thinks he is on the side of all that is right and holy, and the Muslim extremists are on the side of the devil, but there really is little difference between them.
 
As we've seen in Europe, as soon as they get the numbers they push for Sharia. It's created considerable unnecessary tension in Europe, and I don't want to see the same sort of discussions going on there here in America. If Muslims want to worship and build mosques here, they can knock themselves out. Just don't try to tell me how to live my life. If I want to burn your book, I reserve the right to do it.
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Hrrm I wasnt expecting an 'islamic creep' argument. But somehow... I seriously doubt that any non-muslims would end up in Sharia courts in the west. The idea screams of pre-emptive victimization.
 
Ahlevah said:
The good reverend performed a public service by drawing attention to the fact that fundamentalist Muslims don't respect Western customs and political institutions.
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Is there any reason they should? I'd have thought that it's their own political institutions, feeble and nascent though they may be, that the fundamentalists ought to be pressurised into respecting. Are you expecting them to pledge alleigance to the flag of the US or something?

As we've seen in Europe, as soon as they get the numbers they push for Sharia. It's created considerable unnecessary tension in Europe, and I don't want to see the same sort of discussions going on there here in America. If Muslims want to worship and build mosques here, they can knock themselves out. Just don't try to tell me how to live my life. If I want to burn your book, I reserve the right to do it.
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Everyone has the right to propose ideas and changes to the society in which they live. Sharia has not been applied forcibly onto any citizen of any EU state. No one has introduced legislation to do so and the matter has never been proposed in a single EU parliament. Please provide evidence to the contrary if you have any.

No one has suggested that the Rev. Jones should have been forcibly prevented from burning every religious tract of every faith except his own little sect. He has the right to do so, but with that right comes the responsibility to face the consequences of your actions. It would appear that many people here want to protect him from having to face any consequences for his fascistic actions.
 
What are the repercussions of burning a book. I think that some people who say that "no one wants to forcibly prevent" blah blah blah want there to be some amount of government forced wielded against the preacher.
 
Ikari said:
What are the repercussions of burning a book. I think that some people who say that "no one wants to forcibly prevent" blah blah blah want there to be some amount of government forced wielded against the preacher.
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That seems a perfectly reasonable question. What should happen to the Rev. Jones as a consequence of taking the action which indirectly led to the deaths of the UN workers, consciously and inadvisedly? I passionately believe in the right of free expression, but I also passionately believe that those who have the privilege of enjoying such rights have a duty to use it responsibly. Clearly he did the opposite of this. I don't know whether the US has laws about incitement to violent disorder or not. I'm not sure either whether Rev Jones' actions could be construed as having directly incited that violence, but I certainly think it would be worth looking at.

Ultimately, I suspect he did nothing illegal, merely immoral.
 
Andalublue said:
Is there any reason they should? I'd have thought that it's their own political institutions, feeble and nascent though they may be, that the fundamentalists ought to be pressurised into respecting. Are you expecting them to pledge alleigance to the flag of the US or something?
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Perhap[s the bigger question is whether we in the West respect our political institutions, human rights, including that of women and children, free speech, freedom of and from religion, and so on. And how strongly do we believe them to be good things? Good enough that everyone everywhere should have them, or only good enough that the democracies have them? Are we, as the ancient question goes, our brother's keeper? The Left seems to believe that on a local level we are bt on an international level we are not. There seems to be good arguments from both sides, at least on the international level.


Everyone has the right to propose ideas and changes to the society in which they live. Sharia has not been applied forcibly onto any citizen of any EU state. No one has introduced legislation to do so and the matter has never been proposed in a single EU parliament. Please provide evidence to the contrary if you have any.
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It seems that there is no need to forcibly apply Sharia as it is being done voluntarily, and the consequences of non-complaince, as we have just seen, can be quite severe. Discretion will certainly win over valor these days.

No one has suggested that the Rev. Jones should have been forcibly prevented from burning every religious tract of every faith except his own little sect. He has the right to do so, but with that right comes the responsibility to face the consequences of your actions. It would appear that many people here want to protect him from having to face any consequences for his fascistic actions.
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He has every right to do what he did and his rights should be defended, though not necessarily what he said or did. Anger should instead be directed at those who committed the murders.

Standing up to Islam is a lot more difficult than appeasement and that's why Western institutions, such as freedom of speech, will be eroded as far as Islam goes. The West is losing the battle, particularly in Europe, and that will continue into the foreseeable future.
 
Andalublue said:
Ultimately, I suspect he did nothing illegal, merely immoral.
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Nope, Pastor did nothing wrong... and this is why ALL Islam is dangerous and inimical to the west.

Burn one single copy of the Quran and they go nuts. If that doesn't put everything in perspective, I don't know what will.
 
Andalublue said:
I passionately believe in the right of free expression, but.....
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Not all that passionately, it seems, and those who make those claims often tend to have a 'but' following.

I believe in women's right but...

Either we have freedom of expression or we don't. There was recently a US Supreme Court decision allowing some Christian nut-cases to shout ugliness near a young Marine's funeral, and that right was, rightfully, upheld by the Courts.

We don't have to agree with the speech to allow it, and it will frequently be tested, but it is absolutely essential that it be protected.
 
ric27 said:
Nope, Pastor did nothing wrong... and this is why ALL Islam is dangerous and inimical to the west.

Burn one single copy of the Quran and they go nuts. If that doesn't put everything in perspective, I don't know what will.
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This is not a war between Christianity and Islam. It is not "all Islam" that is the problem. It is religious extremists that are the problem.

Thank God, Allah, Jehovah, and Zeus, there is no war between two of the world's major religions. Such a war would end civilization as we know it.
 
Andalublue said:
That seems a perfectly reasonable question. What should happen to the Rev. Jones as a consequence of taking the action which indirectly led to the deaths of the UN workers, consciously and inadvisedly? I passionately believe in the right of free expression, but I also passionately believe that those who have the privilege of enjoying such rights have a duty to use it responsibly. Clearly he did the opposite of this. I don't know whether the US has laws about incitement to violent disorder or not. I'm not sure either whether Rev Jones' actions could be construed as having directly incited that violence, but I certainly think it would be worth looking at.

Ultimately, I suspect he did nothing illegal, merely immoral.
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No, he did not do anything illegal. Stupid, yes. But not illegal. In fact what he did was to participate in a very protected form of speech. As such, I see very little we can do to enforce "repercussions" for having exercised a right.
 
Grant said:
Perhap[s the bigger question is whether we in the West respect our political institutions, human rights, including that of women and children, free speech, freedom of and from religion, and so on. And how strongly do we believe them to be good things?
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That is a bigger question, and a very different one to the one we were discussing. Happy to take it up, but perhaps you ought to start a different thread and not hijack this one. I'll certainly be happy to debate it.

Good enough that everyone everywhere should have them, or only good enough that the democracies have them?
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Only if they want them. Of course finding out whether they do is more than fraught with a few difficulties.

Are we, as the ancient question goes, our brother's keeper? The Left seems to believe that on a local level we are bt on an international level we are not.
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I'd say the Left, in a very, very general sense, would suggest that everyone deserves democracy, liberty and human rights just not everybody knows that such things are desirable.
There seems to be good arguments from both sides, at least on the international level.
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Well, that's for that other thread, I think.
It seems that there is no need to forcibly apply Sharia as it is being done voluntarily, and the consequences of non-complaince, as we have just seen, can be quite severe. Discretion will certainly win over valor these days.
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Well, as the libertarians would say, "if there's no coercion, there's no injustice".



He has every right to do what he did and his rights should be defended, though not necessarily what he said or did. Anger should instead be directed at those who committed the murders.
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Most of it, yes. But he should certainly be condemned as the sh**-stirring, mindless bigot that he certainly seems to be.

Standing up to Islam is a lot more difficult than appeasement and that's why Western institutions, such as freedom of speech, will be eroded as far as Islam goes. The West is losing the battle, particularly in Europe, and that will continue into the foreseeable future.
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I see you've adopted the crusader mentality. Most of us here in Europe don't consider ourselves to be involved in a war with Islam. If that's your crusade, you're welcome to it.
 
Dittohead not! said:
This is not a war between Christianity and Islam. It is not "all Islam" that is the problem. It is religious extremists that are the problem.

Thank God, Allah, Jehovah, and Zeus, there is no war between two of the world's major religions. Such a war would end civilization as we know it.
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There is an Islamic war going on right now against Christians.
 
Grant said:
There is an Islamic war going on right now against Christians.
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Balony. There is a war against western civilization being waged by a fringe group in the Mid East.

If it's a war against Christians, why do they hate Israel?
 
Andalublue said:
Only if they want them. Of course finding out whether they do is more than fraught with a few difficulties.
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That question was often raised about whether Blacks actually wanted freedom and could they handle it if they were free. The answer, for many generations, was usually no. The same question has been raised about the Chinese, the Vietnamese, the Germans and the Japanese. Those from another school of thought says that all people should be free to determine their own personal destiny, and judging from the human migration routes it would seem that the latter philosophy is closer to the mark.
I'd say the Left, in a very, very general sense, would suggest that everyone deserves democracy, liberty and human rights just not everybody knows that such things are desirable.
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I'd like to hear the argument as to why they aren't desirable.

Most of it, yes. But he should certainly be condemned as the sh**-stirring, mindless bigot that he certainly seems to be.
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it seems to me he should not be the focus of so much attentional. It's clear who the real bigots are in this case, and they carried their bigotry to the extreme conclusion.
I see you've adopted the crusader mentality. Most of us here in Europe don't consider ourselves to be involved in a war with Islam. If that's your crusade, you're welcome to it.
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Yes, I know Europeans don't consider themselves to be involved in a war with Islam, but they are certainly at war with you. And they say so. That is why they will win and traditional Europe that we have come to know will lose.
 
Grant said:
That question was often raised about whether Blacks actually wanted freedom and could they handle it if they were free. The answer, for many generations, was usually no.
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Whose answer was usually 'no'? Not the blacks, I'm guessing.

Those from another school of thought says that all people should be free to determine their own personal destiny, and judging from the human migration routes it would seem that the latter philosophy is closer to the mark.
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Personal and collective, coomunal and national destinies.
I'd like to hear the argument as to why they aren't desirable.
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That's not the argument, it's just that many, many people have never heard the debate, never mind been allowed to participate in it.

it seems to me he should not be the focus of so much attentional. It's clear who the real bigots are in this case, and they carried their bigotry to the extreme conclusion.
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Well, here at DP he has certainly received a large degree of support and fairly mild criticism in comparison with the perpetrators of the murders. And that's how it should be.


Yes, I know Europeans don't consider themselves to be involved in a war with Islam, but they are certainly at war with you. And they say so. That is why they will win and traditional Europe that we have come to know will lose.
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Well, why don't you leave us to worry about that?
 
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