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Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

ManofthPeephole said:
again, unless you feel they had no other response to burning a Quran, they chose to murder people of their own volition, and many other muslims did not
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Of course they had other options. The response that we saw was exactly what was expected, however.



ManofthPeephole said:
from the article: ""We wanted to raise awareness of this dangerous religion and dangerous element," Jones said. "I think [today's attack] proves that there is a radical element of Islam."

that doesn't establish what you claim. If I'm protesting the klan because I think they are a violent organization that doesn't amount to me having a plan for the klan to murder random people as a response to that protest
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No, but if you perform some publicity stunt, knowing full well that the Klan will respond with violence, and then they do so, you are partly to blame for that violence.

ManofthPeephole said:
If you're claiming that he had a certain intent, then it's incumbent on you to offer evidence of such.
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Already offered and ignored. You can't counter irrationality with Empirical evidence.

ManofthPeephole said:
So again, we are stuck with your pointless outrage directed at people who committed no crime, while ignoring people who murder random people
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No, the outrage is well directed.





ManofthPeephole said:
you are. You're excusing their behavior by holding someone else to blame for it
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Really? Can you show me a post I wrote in which I said that the actions of the jihadis were OK?






ManofthPeephole said:
1) why would I care what O'reilly's opinion on the matter was?

2) you're making an appeal to authority, and his argument has the same issues as your own

3) you ignored my point about abortions and the violence associated with them. Are people performing abortions to blame for violence leveled against them, and others, since people have responded with violence in the past?
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1. Because he said it well.
2. He has no more authority than I do.
3. Your abortion argument is irrelevant.
 
Ditto...

I take it that you believe Abortion Doctors are not that much different than Abortion Clinic Bombers since the Abortion Doctors know their action may enrage and cause individuals to bomb their buildings but they go forward with it anyways...right?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Already offered and ignored. You can't counter irrationality with Empirical evidence.
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Where? If you're talking about this quote stating """We wanted to raise awareness of this dangerous religion and dangerous element," Jones said. "I think [today's attack] proves that there is a radical element of Islam." , then it has already been explained to you that it shows absolutely no intent to incite violence












Dittohead not! said:
1. Because he said it well.
2. He has no more authority than I do.
3. Your abortion argument is irrelevant.
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You are saying that people should be held liable for the actions of others, if such behavior is the possible reaction to a legal activity. If you truly believe this, then you must hold abortion doctors accountable for the violence leveled against them, and their practice, because abortions can lead to enraged people acting violently
 
ManofthPeephole said:
Where? If you're talking about this quote stating """We wanted to raise awareness of this dangerous religion and dangerous element," Jones said. "I think [today's attack] proves that there is a radical element of Islam." , then it has already been explained to you that it shows absolutely no intent to incite violence.
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You are not really speaking from any position of authority to analyse what the pastor may or may not have incited. You assert your own opinion, nothing more.
 
Andalublue said:
You are not really speaking from any position of authority to analyse what the pastor may or may not have incited. You assert your own opinion, nothing more.
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Any position of authority??

His words are right there and anyone has the 'authority' to read and define.

We are all asserting our opinions.
 
Andalublue said:
You are not really speaking from any position of authority to analyse what the pastor may or may not have incited. You assert your own opinion, nothing more.
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What are you even talking about? Someone posted a small statement from him claiming that such was proof his intent was to cause these murders; I refuted this. If you have a problem with that refutation, then by all means, address it and tell us how such a statement is proof that the intent was to incite a riot in Afghanistan, that would lead to the murder of completely random people
 
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This is a rather amazing response from a very brave Ann Barnhardt to Wimpsey Grahams' statement and to Islam in general.





The second half is jarring because she does actually burn a Koran and give her address and an invitation for Graham or anybody else to come get her.

This is an extremely troubling situation. Seattle cartoonist, Mollie Norris, on the advice of the FBI, went into hiding last year after promoting an "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day." There was a fatwa issued against her and she has had to change her identity in order to stay alive.
 
Bah, an idiot burns a quaran... perfectly legal and constitutionally-protected free speech... and people blame him when a bunch of murderous barbarians go on a rampage to kill innocent people. Tell me, when protestors around the world burn the American flag, does that mean that they are responsible if a bunch of murderous Americans break into UN headquarters and kill everyone in sight?

Think, people, think.
 
Marshabar said:
This is a rather amazing response from a very brave Ann Barnhardt to Wimpsey Grahams' statement and to Islam in general.





This would be illegal in Western Europe, Canada and Australia. It really is up to the Americans, once again, to defend human rights, and Free Speech is the linchpin.

The second half is jarring because she does actually burn a Koran and give her address and an invitation for Graham or anybody else to come get her.

This is an extremely troubling situation. Seattle cartoonist, Mollie Norris, on the advice of the FBI, went into hiding last year after promoting an "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day." There was a fatwa issued against her and she has had to change her identity in order to stay alive.
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This act would be illegal in Australia, Western Europe or Canada so once again it is left to the Americans to step out in support of Free Speech, the linchpin which protects all other human rights and freedoms. Lose that and you can kiss the rest goodbye.

Do we need fear for the life of this woman?

If the answer is yes, then it would seem that despite all the platitudes we hear about the 'Religion of Peace', the truth lies elsewhere.
 
Grant said:
You obviously don't have very high expectations from Muslims.
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Not from Muslim terrorists, no. I think we all knew what their reaction would be, including Pastor Nutter. He pretty much said so himself.

Grant said:
Actually, it was an excellent analogy.
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So you say.:roll:

Ditto...

I take it that you believe Abortion Doctors are not that much different than Abortion Clinic Bombers since the Abortion Doctors know their action may enrage and cause individuals to bomb their buildings but they go forward with it anyways...right?
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Wrong. You'd be better off to take it that I don't think the issue of deliberately setting off Muslim nutcases has anything to do with abortion.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Not from Muslim terrorists, no. I think we all knew what their reaction would be, including Pastor Nutter. He pretty much said so himself.
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I had no idea what they would do. Did you thiink Muslims would go on a killing spree? I certainly didn't. I suppose I was starting to think these people had some common sense and would rise up to denounce violence. Instead we have non Musliims defending Muslims, while they remain silent.

Wrong. You'd be better off to take it that I don't think the issue of deliberately setting off Muslim nutcases has anything to do with abortion.
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OK , so you don't understand the analogy. Fair enough.

But has it ever occurred to you that perhaps they are all nutcases? Certainly, if they buy what's written in the Koran, there would have to be a little twisted in their thinking, and the Shariah laws they support and want to spread elsewhere tend to support that idea.
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His actions caused harm to others. That’s fundamentally wrong in my book. He was asked by countless prominent world leaders, agencies, and figures to cease his actions. If his family, his church, and other things he cared about found themselves in a bad situation related to this I wouldn’t mind in the slightest.

It seems that most of you that either oppose or support his decision are unwilling to consider both sides of the picture. There is not an easily painted picture to compare the situation to in the Western world vs. the Islamic world. It is a difference in culture that we cannot fathom. He committed one of the worst possible atrocities that the Islamic world could imagine. Wars have been waged for less offensive gestures.
 
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bus said:
His actions caused harm to others. That’s fundamentally wrong in my book. He was asked by countless prominent world leaders, agencies, and figures to cease his actions. If his family, his church, and other things he cared about found themselves in a bad situation related to this I wouldn’t mind in the slightest.

It seems that most of you that either oppose or support his decision are unwilling to consider both sides of the picture. There is not an easily painted picture to compare the situation to in the Western world vs. the Islamic world. It is a difference in culture that we cannot fathom. He committed one of the worst possible atrocities that the Islamic world could imagine. Wars have been waged war for less offensive gestures.
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Seriously, How much of your opinion on the Islamic world is coming from your professors?

Do you truly believe that they will play nice and tolerate us if we conceede to them and bend over backwards (or forwards in the form of a bow) and give them whatever they ask for in the name of tolerance?
 
bus said:
His actions caused harm to others. That’s fundamentally wrong in my book. He was asked by countless prominent world leaders, agencies, and figures to cease his actions. If his family, his church, and other things he cared about found themselves in a bad situation related to this I wouldn’t mind in the slightest.

It seems that most of you that either oppose or support his decision are unwilling to consider both sides of the picture. There is not an easily painted picture to compare the situation to in the Western world vs. the Islamic world. It is a difference in culture that we cannot fathom. He committed one of the worst possible atrocities that the Islamic world could imagine. Wars have been waged for less offensive gestures.
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1) America isn't part of the islamic world so I fail to see why we should design our rights around their custom

2) If they are willing to fight wars over someone desecrating a book it sounds like the issue rests with them, and not the people that allow symbolic acts that harm no one

3) I disagree with your assessment that Muslims can't know better, being that Muslims s in America didn't kill anyone in response
 
bus said:
His actions caused harm to others. That’s fundamentally wrong in my book. He was asked by countless prominent world leaders, agencies, and figures to cease his actions. If his family, his church, and other things he cared about found themselves in a bad situation related to this I wouldn’t mind in the slightest.

It seems that most of you that either oppose or support his decision are unwilling to consider both sides of the picture. There is not an easily painted picture to compare the situation to in the Western world vs. the Islamic world. It is a difference in culture that we cannot fathom. He committed one of the worst possible atrocities that the Islamic world could imagine. Wars have been waged war for less offensive gestures.
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It is his right to free opinion that is being supported, not necessary what he said or did. I don't agree with burning the flag either, and it would arouse anger in some quarters, I know, but I'd still support the idea because it is burning a symbol, and symbols are not people.

these Muslims were killing real people, many real people. But they were not real people to these Muslims. They were symbols. To them they may as well have been books or flags but as long as they were symbolic of something that was enough for them..

And, by the way, these Muslims in Afghanistan are largely ignorant and illiterate so someone had to explain to them what was said or done, and we can expect it was translated in the most inflammatory way, judging by their response. The question should then be asked as to who inflamed them and to what end? It certainly wasn't some obscure Florida Pastor.
 
Grant said:
I had no idea what they would do. Did you thiink Muslims would go on a killing spree? I certainly didn't. I suppose I was starting to think these people had some common sense and would rise up to denounce violence. Instead we have non Musliims defending Muslims, while they remain silent.
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Not Muslims. Jihadis.

I expected them to go on a violent spree, just as everyone who had anything to do with Afganistan predicted. Reverend Nutter expected them to go on a violent spree. They were right. I was right. OK, I'm used to being right.



Grant said:
OK , so you don't understand the analogy. Fair enough.

But has it ever occurred to you that perhaps they are all nutcases? Certainly, if they buy what's written in the Koran, there would have to be a little twisted in their thinking, and the Shariah laws they support and want to spread elsewhere tend to support that idea.
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I understand the analogy. I don't think it's valid.

No, not all Muslims are nutcases. Not all Christians are nutcases, either, but some are as this little incident illustrates.
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Dittohead not! said:
Not Muslims. Jihadis.
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Why do you make that claim and on what grounds? Has anyone but yourself denied those religious fanatics doing all the murdering were Muslims? What's your definition of "Jihad", because there seems to be quite a difference of opinion on these boards as to just what it does mean.

I expected them to go on a violent spree, just as everyone who had anything to do with Afganistan predicted. Reverend Nutter expected them to go on a violent spree. They were right. I was right. OK, I'm used to being right.
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Did you have any idea where these riots and killings would take place? How many victims there would be? How long rioting would continue? Or was it just a feeling that Muslims would get a little crazy again?
No, not all Muslims are nutcases. Not all Christians are nutcases, either, but some are as this little incident illustrates.
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And yet you can safely predict that Muslims would become fanatical murderers if anyone was to burn a Koran and I can safely predict that Christians would not do the same thing if a Bible was burned.

So who are the real nutcases?
 
ric27 said:
Seriously, How much of your opinion on the Islamic world is coming from your professors?
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I was probably gauging off the two years I spent in the Islamic world. I don’t condone or support the actions that occurred in response. I’m stating that harsh realities occurred because of a moron here in the United States endangering lives abroad.

ric27 said:
Do you truly believe that they will play nice and tolerate us if we conceede to them and bend over backwards (or forwards in the form of a bow) and give them whatever they ask for in the name of tolerance?
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I don’t want tolerance. I want abstinence from the whole region.
 
bus said:
I was probably gauging off the two years I spent in the Islamic world. I don’t condone or support the actions that occurred in response. I’m stating that harsh realities occurred because of a moron here in the United States endangering lives abroad.
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Muslims were responsible for murdering all those people, no one else.

I don’t want tolerance. I want abstinence from the whole region.
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Great swaths of "The whole region" are moving into the democracies.Abstinence is no longer an option.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Wrong. You'd be better off to take it that I don't think the issue of deliberately setting off Muslim nutcases has anything to do with abortion.
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Gotcha...

So you have an issue with deliberately doing actions that will set off nutcases if you like the nutcases. If you dislike the nutcases then its perfectly okay to do it in your mind?

Makes sense
 
Grant said:
Why do you make that claim and on what grounds? Has anyone but yourself denied those religious fanatics doing all the murdering were Muslims? What's your definition of "Jihad", because there seems to be quite a difference of opinion on these boards as to just what it does mean.



Did you have any idea where these riots and killings would take place? How many victims there would be? How long rioting would continue? Or was it just a feeling that Muslims would get a little crazy again?


And yet you can safely predict that Muslims would become fanatical murderers if anyone was to burn a Koran and I can safely predict that Christians would not do the same thing if a Bible was burned.

So who are the real nutcases?
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I think you do get it, surely undoubtedly.

OK, just in case, here goes:

Not all Muslims are terrorists/jihadis/nutters.

Yes, really! The world's billion and a half or so Muslims are not all crazy. I know that's hard to accept, but it's true.

Not all Christians are nutters, either, but a few are.

Whether I, or Reverend Jones, or Obama, or O'Reilly, or anyone else could have predicted just how many people would be killed or where is irrelevant to the discussion. We all knew that the Jihadis would go on a violent spree as a result of burning the Koran. Such a spree was predicted. Those of us who said it would happen were right. We're also right that the absurd publicity stunt of putting the Koran "on trial" was the indirect cause of several deaths, and that having done so was irresponsible in the extreme.

No amount of diversion is going to change any of the facts of the matter.
 
Marshabar said:
This is a rather amazing response from a very brave Ann Barnhardt to Wimpsey Grahams' statement and to Islam in general.

The second half is jarring because she does actually burn a Koran and give her address and an invitation for Graham or anybody else to come get her.

This is an extremely troubling situation. Seattle cartoonist, Mollie Norris, on the advice of the FBI, went into hiding last year after promoting an "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day." There was a fatwa issued against her and she has had to change her identity in order to stay alive.
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A bit more on this amazing woman.

Lindsey Graham... meet Ann Barnhardt (Wizbang)
 
Dittohead not! said:
I think you do get it, surely undoubtedly.

OK, just in case, here goes:

Not all Muslims are terrorists/jihadis/nutters.
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Yes, I've heard that not all Muslims are terrorists. How do you tell them apart though? Are the terrorists just Muslims who haven't killed anyone yet? What is the formula and how can you tell them apart?

And it seems you still aren't clear on what "Jihad" means.
Yes, really! The world's billion and a half or so Muslims are not all crazy. I know that's hard to accept, but it's true.
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Do you have any numbers? What about those people, Muslim and non Muslim, who want Sharia Law introdued into the democraies? Are they crazy or only slightly disturbed?
Not all Christians are nutters, either, but a few are.
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I just haven't seen any Christians doing what Muslims are doing. That isn't just their murderous rampages of course. It's also honor killings, clitorectinies, the stoning of women, young girls and gays, disallowing an education, etc. etc. etc.
Whether I, or Reverend Jones, or Obama, or O'Reilly, or anyone else could have predicted just how many people would be killed or where is irrelevant to the discussion. We all knew that the Jihadis would go on a violent spree as a result of burning the Koran. Such a spree was predicted. Those of us who said it would happen were right. We're also right that the absurd publicity stunt of putting the Koran "on trial" was the indirect cause of several deaths, and that having done so was irresponsible in the extreme.
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Do you feel Bill O'Reilley was also responsible for what the Muslims did?

No amount of diversion is going to change any of the facts of the matter.
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I agree. Bu
t then why try to divert the attention from the actual murderers to a Florida pastor?
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