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EU to ban cars from cities by 2050

Kandahar said:
Uhh I'm 27. In any case, I'm done responding to your infantile ****. When you care to discuss the subject at hand, then we'll talk. :2wave:
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Right! Right! Right! I believe you're a child phenom. I totally buy into it! :lamo
 
apdst said:
I actually work for a living and pay a light bill. Can I afford it to be tripled? Um, no, I can't.

Do you even pay a light bill? Hell, do you even have a job?





Were horses banned? Or, did they fall by the wayside, because of progress? hmm? Got an answer that isn't chock-a-block full of Libbo talking points?
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Uhh, you realize the electricity used would be cheaper than the gasoline you would have purchased for the same trip, right?

Per-unit of work, an electric motor is far more efficient than an internal combustion engine. Even if the electricity is coming from a fossil fuel power plant, you still win out because the generators at a power plant are more efficient than your car's engine. Your car only extracts about 25% of the energy in gasoline as motive force, the rest is waste heat.
 
Jetboogieman said:
This actually isn't JUST about being Green.

European cities in general, were built long before the advent of the Motor Vehicle. As more and more cars hit the roads in European countries, cities are pushed to the limit in congestion.

Cities like London simply cannot handle the amount of cars that plow through it every day.

I support this measure.

We have to change the way we do things. Sorry but we do.

Those who want to live in the past. Enjoy it. History will leave you behind.
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I think it will work well in Europe... all the public transit.. but will they let buses drive in the city?
 
Jetboogieman said:
Driving through downtown london :thinking
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Exactly my reaction too.. but their best ones are when the leave the UK. I liked the one they did in America and South Africa..
 
Deuce said:
Uhh, you realize the electricity used would be cheaper than the gasoline you would have purchased for the same trip, right?

Per-unit of work, an electric motor is far more efficient than an internal combustion engine. Even if the electricity is coming from a fossil fuel power plant, you still win out because the generators at a power plant are more efficient than your car's engine. Your car only extracts about 25% of the energy in gasoline as motive force, the rest is waste heat.
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But, is it practical?

I mean, if it were so awesome, the government wouldn't have to mandate it's use. Yes?
 
SheWolf said:
I think it will work well in Europe... all the public transit.. but will they let buses drive in the city?
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Those damn unintended consequeces! Now, we're going to have to raise taxes to pay for electric busses...:lamo
 
For one example of how the traditional automobile could become obsolete in the not-too-distant future, look at the self-driving car that Google developed last year. It was able to drive thousands of miles on the streets and highways of California with minimal human intervention. It's not yet ready to take away the human controls entirely, or to be released to the public...but GM and Honda have both targeted 2017 as a release date for self-driving cars. Even if they're a few years off, it's definitely coming in the near future.

How will this change society? It will eliminate the need for personal automobile ownership for the vast majority of people. The main reason that people choose to own cars instead of taking public transit is because of the convenience of door-to-door transportation. You get in the car at your house and go exactly where you need to go, whereas you can't do that with a city bus or a train or a metro. Once cars are able to drive themselves, you'll be able to get that kind of convenience WITHOUT owning a car. You could just summon the nearest car with a smartphone app, and it would come pick you up. This would allow for much more efficient transportation, since our personal cars tend to sit unused for over 90% of the day.

Fewer cars would greatly improve environmental efficiency. Aside from the expected upgrades in hydrogen/electric cars and batteries, fewer cars would mean that less real estate would need to be used as parking lots or highways, and could be left to nature (or used to develop cities more efficiently, thereby reducing sprawl). Additionally, cars will soon be able to communicate with one another and warn each other of traffic jams, thereby reducing traffic congestion, which is a major source of environmental inefficiency. Combine this with the self-driving aspect, and cars would be able to arrange themselves in highway traffic patterns that minimize the amount of energy needed to produce themselves forward, much like racecar drivers do.

This is just one vision for how emerging transportation technologies will soon be able to dramatically improve our environment and our lives. I'm sure there are plenty of other innovations that people haven't even thought of yet.
 
apdst said:
But, is it practical?

I mean, if it were so awesome, the government wouldn't have to mandate it's use. Yes?
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So what you're saying now is that the assertion of "wanting to return us to the stone ages" is wrong, and that there are in fact other methods of moving a vehicle?

Practical? For in-city driving, absolutely. The battery capacity requirements for such a thing aren't nearly as high. As someone else mentioned, battery technology is improving rapidly. I bet by 2050 Europeans will be laughing that they ever drove gasoline-powered cars in the first place. (for personal transportation anyway. I suspect heavy trucks/machinery will remain diesel powered for a much longer time)

America, not quite as sure. It's a pretty sprawled out country.
 
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Deuce said:
So what you're saying now is that the assertion of "wanting to return us to the stone ages" is wrong, and that there are in fact other methods of moving a vehicle?

Practical? For in-city driving, absolutely. The battery capacity requirements for such a thing aren't nearly as high. As someone else mentioned, battery technology is improving rapidly. I bet by 2050 Europeans will be laughing that they ever drove gasoline-powered cars in the first place. (for personal transportation anyway. I suspect heavy trucks/machinery will remain diesel powered for a much longer time)

America, not quite as sure. It's a pretty sprawled out country.
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So! Anyone living outside the city, that wants to visit the city will have to go to the suburbs, park their car--and pay, of course--then pay to get on a public transit vehicle, to go ahead and conduct whatever their business is, within the city.

That's going to be cheaper, how? :rofl
 
apdst said:
So! Anyone living outside the city, that wants to visit the city will have to go to the suburbs, park their car--and pay, of course--then pay to get on a public transit vehicle, to go ahead and conduct whatever their business is, within the city.

That's going to be cheaper, how? :rofl
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So you don't live near NYC I take it.
 
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I was interested to see the accident rate and any correlation that could be made with the number of cars on the road but I for the life of me can't find good reliable reports from the same years. At Road casualties in Great Britain: main results It would appear as if casualties have actually gone down since 2002. (only lists 02-07) It does seem, though, through my searches that congestion in UK (and London specifically) has in fact risen, although. This congestion has led to the Congestion Charge Zone (a toll road in central and western London.

London congestion charge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This research leads me to believe that the number of accidents does not seem to be directly correlated to the congestion. This does not however mean that congestion is not a serious problem. It seems to me like something with the infrastructure needs to be redone but unfortunately, as it has been pointed out, European cities are not exactly planned upon major highway systems.

At this point the choices become:

1) Somehow improve the infrastructure to handle more traffic

2) Somehow remove vehicles from the roadways

3) Keep things the same and see the problem grow

I don't know if the push to ban fuel based (very important) cars off the road will help with congestion as we simply cannot know what infrastructure and technology will be like in 2050. I do however, support green technology. It is essential to our future and the future off our children to come. Whether or not government mandate is the way to fix this problem is quite frankly impossible to predict, but if it helps make the push to cleaner, cheaper, more efficient energy sign me up!
 
apdst said:
It's illegal to drive cars in NYC?
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No...nor is it illegal in the EU. Nor WILL it be illegal in the EU. This, again, is a ban proposal on fossil fuel driven vehicles. Not only that, the target is almost 40 years away. I find it disingenuous that you are still using the "No cars in Europe" argument when in post #31 you refer to the need of electric busses on the road. This proves that you KNOW what the ban is about to a certain degree, and that you choose to ignore it to make your argument work.
 
apdst said:
So! Anyone living outside the city, that wants to visit the city will have to go to the suburbs, park their car--and pay, of course--then pay to get on a public transit vehicle, to go ahead and conduct whatever their business is, within the city.

That's going to be cheaper, how? :rofl
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Actually, given the constantly rising price in fuel (even more so in the EU) there is NO way to tell what the price differential would be between the two or even if it would be a valid comparison in 40 years.
 
apdst said:
It's illegal to drive cars in NYC?
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No. But people outside the city often take a train to get into the city.

Nobody drives in NYC. There's too many cars.
 
Deuce said:
Why yes, let's not bother to figure out what those "mandatory standards" are and just assume it's 1984.

So much easier.

Did you know there are mandatory standards that determine how runways are designed at airports!? MY FREEDOMS!
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Except there is a substantial difference in that this is more than just saying how to make safe runways. It amounts to dictating from on high what cities do with their infrastructure. This is about increasing centralization of power in Brussels without any real democratic accountability.
 
Who cares if the technology isn't here now, it will be then. Obviously Electric Cars are the wave of the future. Of course, how that electricity get's PRODUCED is going to be a big deal. But let's ignore that for now.

Go Battery Cars!

I see this working out like that Kyoto thing, big commitments, few results.
 
SheWolf said:
Exactly my reaction too.. but their best ones are when the leave the UK. I liked the one they did in America and South Africa..
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The EU, as a group is considering this.

That means the guys would not be able to go to most of the major cities of Europe and do any driving.

It is really going to put a crimp in their work, of course by 2050 they will all be dead or close to it.
 
Kandahar said:
For one example of how the traditional automobile could become obsolete in the not-too-distant future, look at the self-driving car that Google developed last year. It was able to drive thousands of miles on the streets and highways of California with minimal human intervention. It's not yet ready to take away the human controls entirely, or to be released to the public...but GM and Honda have both targeted 2017 as a release date for self-driving cars. Even if they're a few years off, it's definitely coming in the near future.

How will this change society? It will eliminate the need for personal automobile ownership for the vast majority of people. The main reason that people choose to own cars instead of taking public transit is because of the convenience of door-to-door transportation. You get in the car at your house and go exactly where you need to go, whereas you can't do that with a city bus or a train or a metro. Once cars are able to drive themselves, you'll be able to get that kind of convenience WITHOUT owning a car. You could just summon the nearest car with a smartphone app, and it would come pick you up. This would allow for much more efficient transportation, since our personal cars tend to sit unused for over 90% of the day.

Fewer cars would greatly improve environmental efficiency. Aside from the expected upgrades in hydrogen/electric cars and batteries, fewer cars would mean that less real estate would need to be used as parking lots or highways, and could be left to nature (or used to develop cities more efficiently, thereby reducing sprawl). Additionally, cars will soon be able to communicate with one another and warn each other of traffic jams, thereby reducing traffic congestion, which is a major source of environmental inefficiency. Combine this with the self-driving aspect, and cars would be able to arrange themselves in highway traffic patterns that minimize the amount of energy needed to produce themselves forward, much like racecar drivers do.

This is just one vision for how emerging transportation technologies will soon be able to dramatically improve our environment and our lives. I'm sure there are plenty of other innovations that people haven't even thought of yet.
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I can't see any scenario where this could ever happen. Just summon the nearest car? Too many liability issues involved.
 
Deuce said:
Nobody drives in NYC. There's too many cars.
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Ok, I know it's late and I should be in bed, but is it just me or does that sentence make absolutely no sense whatsoever?
 
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It wont have that big an impact. Most big cities have top rate public transport, that already is better than driving. For one, I would never drive into Copenhagen center. I would park in the suburbs and take the train/metro. Just so much easier to get around with those. In many cities they already are pushing towards this any ways, including London. Congestion charges are quite high in London for example, and local authorities in many cities either cut the amount of parking available or make it expensive. Free parking is a thing of the past.

As for the EU doing this... the OP article comes from a UK paper, which means you always have to take it with a huge grain of salt. I cant see under what current ruleset that the EU can set local transportation laws.. hell they cant even set speed limits as of yet.. As always, for this to go through.. all countries need to agree, including the UK.. something that the OP newspaper most likely forgot to mention (no I did not read it .. could not be bothered).
 
Theres so many problems with this...if you live semi rural or rural and work in the city, you have to drive your car if theres no public trans to the city available, find a place to park right outside the city, take transportation into the city then switch at least once to get where your going. WOW, how about getting up 8 hrs before you start work to get ready and to finally get there
 
lpast said:
Theres so many problems with this...if you live semi rural or rural and work in the city, you have to drive your car if theres no public trans to the city available, find a place to park right outside the city, take transportation into the city then switch at least once to get where your going. WOW, how about getting up 8 hrs before you start work to get ready and to finally get there
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No, you don't HAVE to drive into the city from suburban and semi-rural areas. Most, if not all major European cities have extensive public transport systems. They also have inadequate road networks that foul up on a fraction of the traffic volume that a US or Canadian city could cope with. In other words, in Europe public transport is better than it is in the US, the driving experience in cities infinitely worse. I occasionally drive into my nearest medium-sized city, Granada and it. is. a. nightmare! Fortunately it is a small enough city that you can walk or cycle throughout the city centre. It's only a matter or time before cars are banned entirely from the city centre, at the instigation of the (right wing) city council, never mind the EU.
 
Kandahar said:
For one example of how the traditional automobile could become obsolete in the not-too-distant future, look at the self-driving car that Google developed last year. It was able to drive thousands of miles on the streets and highways of California with minimal human intervention. It's not yet ready to take away the human controls entirely, or to be released to the public...but GM and Honda have both targeted 2017 as a release date for self-driving cars. Even if they're a few years off, it's definitely coming in the near future.

How will this change society? It will eliminate the need for personal automobile ownership for the vast majority of people. The main reason that people choose to own cars instead of taking public transit is because of the convenience of door-to-door transportation. You get in the car at your house and go exactly where you need to go, whereas you can't do that with a city bus or a train or a metro. Once cars are able to drive themselves, you'll be able to get that kind of convenience WITHOUT owning a car. You could just summon the nearest car with a smartphone app, and it would come pick you up. This would allow for much more efficient transportation, since our personal cars tend to sit unused for over 90% of the day.

Fewer cars would greatly improve environmental efficiency. Aside from the expected upgrades in hydrogen/electric cars and batteries, fewer cars would mean that less real estate would need to be used as parking lots or highways, and could be left to nature (or used to develop cities more efficiently, thereby reducing sprawl). Additionally, cars will soon be able to communicate with one another and warn each other of traffic jams, thereby reducing traffic congestion, which is a major source of environmental inefficiency. Combine this with the self-driving aspect, and cars would be able to arrange themselves in highway traffic patterns that minimize the amount of energy needed to produce themselves forward, much like racecar drivers do.

This is just one vision for how emerging transportation technologies will soon be able to dramatically improve our environment and our lives. I'm sure there are plenty of other innovations that people haven't even thought of yet.
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A self driving car will never take you to the places that I go with my car. For the simple fact that the roads I take are not on any normal GPS system.
 
It's not like anyone even drives in London anyway. The various trains make getting around a breeze.

Mind the gap.
 
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