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Canadian government falls, election set for May

Grant said:
Your shift from "I am not feeling the love in my part of Canada" to "don't like Harper enough to give him a majority again" (he didn't have a majority) has not gone unnoticed

Here's one poll. Where's yours?

Ipsos leadership poll boosts Harper and Layton, devastating for Ignatieff | The Hill | Blogs | Toronto Sun
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I am NOT feeling the love in my part of Canada. <=== This is true
Canada might not like Harper enough to give him a majority. <== This is true

How is this a shift?

Here, let me use the poll that you cited:
1) Harper: 49%
2) Layton: 34%
3) Ignatieff: 17%

Is that a majority to you?

PS. My personal opinion is that Harper will eke in with a majority. But it won't be from my vote.
 
Middleground said:
Right. Like I said, the government funds it. They do not dictate to ANY health facility how to operate. See what I sayin'?
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Are you saying that there are those who are not paid by the government working in hospitals, etc.? That those in the Canadian health care system are not being paid by the government?

Who do you believe tells those working in hospitals, etc. how it should be operated?
 
Grant said:
Are you saying that there are those who are not paid by the government working in hospitals, etc.? That those in the Canadian health care system are not being paid by the government?

Who do you believe tells those working in hospitals, etc. how it should be operated?
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Good gawd, Grant, do you think the nurse at the Ottawa General Hospital gets a cheque directily signed by Harper? LOL
 
Middleground said:
Good gawd, Grant, do you think the nurse at the Ottawa General Hospital gets a cheque directily signed by Harper? LOL
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Do you inderstand how the quote system works?

You really don't have to guess at what I am saying as the words are appearing directly on the web page in front of you.

Why would you ask the question about Harper and his signature? You seem at at loss here. Perhaps that is why you are still a student. Perhaps a C- average, right? In your late 20's?
 
Middleground said:
I am NOT feeling the love in my part of Canada. <=== This is true
Canada might not like Harper enough to give him a majority. <== This is true

How is this a shift?

Here, let me use the poll that you cited:
1) Harper: 49%
2) Layton: 34%
3) Ignatieff: 17%

Is that a majority to you?

PS. My personal opinion is that Harper will eke in with a majority. But it won't be from my vote.
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I live here but can't vote so that gives me a bit more objectivity. At this point, I think Harper stands a decent chance of getting a majority, but it's only because the conservative aspect of the parties is concentrated into one party, the CPC. The liberal ideologies are spread out over 2-3 other parties so it's easier for the liberals to be divided.

When the conservatives formed their coalition party years ago, they paved the way for this day. All they needed was one big scandal for the liberal government to fall, which it got with the sponsorship scandal. The liberals also have a clear lack of effective leadership. I value a lot of the liberal platform but Michael Ignatieff is not leadership material.

The fact that the Harper government is blatantly corrupt and has been found in contempt of parliament (a crime in Canada) will probably not be enough to get the conservatives tossed out.
 
zimmer said:
Pull My Finger: People aren't just denied, they do die waiting for care. That is why the Quebec Supreme Court ruled a waiting list does not constitute medical care. I know someone right at this minute who had an eye op go bad in Kanuckistan. This person went to the doc time after time... of course waiting their turn every time during those 18-months. If this person hadn't been persistent they wouldn't be on a further waiting list to get their eye repaired. In the US this would have be handles 18-months ago.
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Let me reiterate the first claim of my original post: “I won’t claim our healthcare system is without its faults...”

I can’t disagree that ‘waiting’ is not care. Seems the courts spent another boatload to state the obvious. If a condition worsens while waiting, which contributes to their death despite going to Emergency, of course this would be one of the faults I alluded to. I have heard the horror stories, and have jumped through the hoops myself. I am not blind to the problems in our country that go far beyond healthcare, but are part and parcel of why our healthcare system has deteriorated.

I pay taxes, and a monthly bill in my particular province to have healthcare. I am under no illusions that our healthcare is ‘free’. I don’t think ANY Canadian is under that illusion, or thinks our healthcare is perfect – even the ‘dumbest’ of my friends. And as liblady acknowledged, I think there have been operations gone bad in your country as well, while you do have better ‘recourse’ when it happens – you can sue for hot coffee, or getting fat on Big Macs too. Canadians love those stories.

While I may have several beefs with your country, I do refrain from referring to Americans by all the names used up here that I dislike as well, to remain adult and avoid inflaming the situation beyond necessary. This is not something I can say for those I run into who like to berate Canada in return because they are personally offended, despite my delicate entry regarding a post I felt was made in ignorance.

As a Canadian, I know less about my own country than I do about yours. :3oops: As that same Canadian, I probably know more about your country, mine, and the world, than a large percentage of Americans – to no fault of their own, just American media.

Canada is just as corrupt, I have the same problems with our leaders and systems as I do yours, I won’t play favorites. None of it matters thanks to the SPP/NAU, whatever you want to call it… (derail within a derail?) You will have ‘socialist’ healthcare whether you want it or not because that is what our ‘leaders’ want. Obama, Bush, Rep, Dem? Snore… Our problems are far deeper, and worsened for partisan addicts like yourself. You don’t even know you’re part of the problem…

My mistake was not quoting the specific post I was after. I’ll be more careful next time. The thread was about the election, not healthcare in the first place.

Peace
 
Grant said:
Do you inderstand how the quote system works?

You really don't have to guess at what I am saying as the words are appearing directly on the web page in front of you.

Why would you ask the question about Harper and his signature? You seem at at loss here. Perhaps that is why you are still a student. Perhaps a C- average, right? In your late 20's?
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Moderator's Warning:
Knock off the personal attacks or there will be further consequences.
 
Middleground said:
I am NOT feeling the love in my part of Canada. <=== This is true
Canada might not like Harper enough to give him a majority. <== This is true

How is this a shift?

Here, let me use the poll that you cited:
1) Harper: 49%
2) Layton: 34%
3) Ignatieff: 17%

Is that a majority to you?

PS. My personal opinion is that Harper will eke in with a majority. But it won't be from my vote.
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"Not feeling the love", as you claimed to be happening in your corner of Canada, has nada to do with a majority rule for the Harper. To put things in perspective you could have mentioned that Ignatieff and Layton are feeling even less love.

And of course not once did I mention a majority or minority government. That's all your idea and a sidewinding shift from your earlier statement regarding "feeling the love".

And all of this shifting about on your part is because you have no idea who runs health care in Canada. NDP, right?
 
Grant said:
Do you inderstand how the quote system works?

You really don't have to guess at what I am saying as the words are appearing directly on the web page in front of you.

Why would you ask the question about Harper and his signature? You seem at at loss here. Perhaps that is why you are still a student. Perhaps a C- average, right? In your late 20's?
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Grant, in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM does the government have a say in my or any other Canadian's healthcare. It does not matter if the procedure I need is expensive or that I might have a pre-existing condition. You--being a Canadian--should know this. It's not like the federal or provincial government is going to meddle with anyone's treatment. Jeepers.

Here is an explanation from Wiki, in basic form:

Health care in Canada is delivered through a publicly-funded health care system, which is mostly free at the point of use and has most services provided by private entities.[1] It is guided by the provisions of the Canada Health Act.[2] The government assures the quality of care through federal standards. The government does not participate in day-to-day care or collect any information about an individual's health, which remains confidential between a person and his or her physician. Canada's provincially-based Medicare systems are cost-effective partly because of their administrative simplicity.[citation needed] In each province each doctor handles the insurance claim against the provincial insurer.
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Health care in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Grant said:
"Not feeling the love", as you claimed to be happening in your corner of Canada, has nada to do with a majority rule for the Harper. To put things in perspective you could have mentioned that Ignatieff and Layton are feeling even less love.

And of course not once did I mention a majority or minority government. That's all your idea and a sidewinding shift from your earlier statement regarding "feeling the love".

And all of this shifting about on your part is because you have no idea who runs health care in Canada. NDP, right?
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Grant where in Canada do you think the Conservatives get the most votes? HINT: it starts with an "A" and end with a "ta." In Ottawa, the Conservatives have the most ridings, but not the bigger ones (mostly the more conservative outskirts). So Harper is lukewarm, at best. Lucky for him, his opposition is equally as incompetent.
 
Middleground said:
Grant where in Canada do you think the Conservatives get the most votes? HINT: it starts with an "A" and end with a "ta." In Ottawa, the Conservatives have the most ridings, but not the bigger ones (mostly the more conservative outskirts). So Harper is lukewarm, at best. Lucky for him, his opposition is equally as incompetent.
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I have no idea where you're going with this and really don't care anymore. I have not given any opinion on the upcoming elction and have not encouraged it.
 
Middleground;1059381443]Grant, in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM does the government have a say in my or any other Canadian's healthcare.
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But this is not what you said earlier.

You said "That is the big fallacy. The government does not run our healthcare".

In fact the government does run health care in Canada though, granted, a government agent may not be looking directly over the doctor's shoulder in the office. BUT! They will decide through the government controlled bureaucracy how much time the doctor can spend with the patient for example. Costs are being hidden, unions have the control of staffing and the entire system is unsustainable. The Americans should avoid what has happened in Canada and instead try to encourage as much free enterprise as is possible, given the current state of affairs.
It does not matter if the procedure I need is expensive or that I might have a pre-existing condition. You--being a Canadian--should know this. It's not like the federal or provincial government is going to meddle with anyone's treatment. Jeepers.
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Expense is a factor. That's why emergency rooms are being closed and there have been cases where an appointment has had to be made for an emergency. There have been cases where people have died racing from one emergency clinic to the next. You- being a Canadian- should know that.

And yes, it is true about pre-existing conditions but it is also true about lengthy line-ups for treatment unless you are a government employee, a sports figure, or know somebody higher up in the medical chain.
 
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Grant said:
But this is not what you said earlier.

You said "That is the big fallacy. The government does not run our healthcare".

In fact the government does run health care in Canada though, granted, a government agent may not be looking directly over the doctor's shoulder in the office. BUT! They will decide through the government controlled bureaucracy how much time the doctor can spend with the patient for example. Costs are being hidden, unions have the control of staffing and the entire system is unsustainable. The Americans should avoid what has happened in Canada and instead try to encourage as much free enterprise as is possible, given the current state of affairs.


Expense is a factor. That's why emergency rooms are being closed and there have been cases where an appointment has had to be made for an emergency. There have been cases where people have died racing from one emergency clinic to the next. You- being a Canadian- should know that.

And yes, it is true about pre-existing conditions but it is also true about lengthy line-ups for treatment unless you are a government employee, a sports figure, or know somebody higher up in the medical chain.
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Just to note

In the US governmental spending on health care on a per capita basis is around $300 per person lower then it is in Canada. Meaning the federal, state and local governments in the spend nearly as much per person on health care as does the various governments in Canada. The drasitic difference in spending between the US and Canada when it comes to health care is the level of spending done by either individuals or through benifits provided by employers. Private spending on health care in the US is if I recall correctly about 3-4 times that of Canada. So while the current Can system is unsustainable, the US is in an even worse position when it comes to health care spending. It is bankrupting the government and individuals
 
Grant said:
But this is not what you said earlier.

You said "That is the big fallacy. The government does not run our healthcare".

In fact the government does run health care in Canada though, granted, a government agent may not be looking directly over the doctor's shoulder in the office. BUT! They will decide through the government controlled bureaucracy how much time the doctor can spend with the patient for example. Costs are being hidden, unions have the control of staffing and the entire system is unsustainable. The Americans should avoid what has happened in Canada and instead try to encourage as much free enterprise as is possible, given the current state of affairs.


Expense is a factor. That's why emergency rooms are being closed and there have been cases where an appointment has had to be made for an emergency. There have been cases where people have died racing from one emergency clinic to the next. You- being a Canadian- should know that.

And yes, it is true about pre-existing conditions but it is also true about lengthy line-ups for treatment unless you are a government employee, a sports figure, or know somebody higher up in the medical chain.
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What a bunch of regurgitated babble. Especially this part:

They will decide through the government controlled bureaucracy how much time the doctor can spend with the patient for example. Costs are being hidden, unions have the control of staffing and the entire system is unsustainable. The Americans should avoid what has happened in Canada and instead try to encourage as much free enterprise as is possible, given the current state of affairs.
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Please back this up by linking me to something.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Just to note

In the US governmental spending on health care on a per capita basis is around $300 per person lower then it is in Canada. Meaning the federal, state and local governments in the spend nearly as much per person on health care as does the various governments in Canada. The drasitic difference in spending between the US and Canada when it comes to health care is the level of spending done by either individuals or through benifits provided by employers. Private spending on health care in the US is if I recall correctly about 3-4 times that of Canada. So while the current Can system is unsustainable, the US is in an even worse position when it comes to health care spending. It is bankrupting the government and individuals
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I'll not claim that although Canada is bad, it's worse in the States. If it is bad in Canada, what's wrong, where's the problem and let's fix it! Maybe we can learn something from the States, perhaps from China or Germany, and maybe they can learn from us, but it doesn't do Canadians any good to say that it's even worse somewhere else.
 
Grant said:
I'll not claim that although Canada is bad, it's worse in the States. If it is bad in Canada, what's wrong, where's the problem and let's fix it! Maybe we can learn something from the States, perhaps from China or Germany, and maybe they can learn from us, but it doesn't do Canadians any good to say that it's even worse somewhere else.
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I am all for changing the Can system to something that does work better

As I understand things the Australian and French health care systems are among the best in the world. Both are more affordable then the US and I believe get better overall results then Canada
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
I am all for changing the Can system to something that does work better

As I understand things the Australian and French health care systems are among the best in the world. Both are more affordable then the US and I believe get better overall results then Canada
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And both are extremely socialised :D Thats what you and I need more of.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
I am all for changing the Can system to something that does work better

As I understand things the Australian and French health care systems are among the best in the world. Both are more affordable then the US and I believe get better overall results then Canada
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I've heard that about the French system as well but have no direct knowledge. I also forgot to mention that I have experienced the Australian Health Care system because my son was born there, and it was excellent! But that was a few years ago and I understand that they are now having trouble financing it They may have user fees now but I'll have to check.

Many of these social programs start off well but eventually the bureaucracy grows and they become political. Every few years in Canada Ed Broadbent will chair an investigation into declining Health Care in Canada and after a few weeks of study they will determine that the system needs more money. That's just the nature of the beast.
 
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Councilman said:
Canada has moved so much to the Left it is in need of serious reform but I doubt it will happen any time soon.

Their Socialized medical system is in disarray and allows the ill to die rather than trying to save lives.

It should be a warning to those who back the Obama plan, but thery are Liberals and they never learn.
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Is there some set of instructions that you people follow every time Europe/Canada comes up? Im starting to get paranoid.:shock:
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
I am all for changing the Can system to something that does work better

As I understand things the Australian and French health care systems are among the best in the world. Both are more affordable then the US and I believe get better overall results then Canada
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The main obstacle to a better Canadian health care system is the United States. They are political and economically stronger than Canada and so they exert a lot of influence. The Canadian health system is gradually being eroded by various forces to the south, and as the system gets worse, the American right will get to point out how ineffective it is. This snowballs the lack of support.

The goal is to privatize the Canadian system into a high profit sector of business much like in the U.S., despite the fact that the U.S. has the most wasteful and ineffective health care in the western world. The people pay more and get less, but that's the way corporate powers want it.

The only thing that is stopping a complete takeover at this point is that the Canadian constitution guarantees adequate health care for everyone. Without that provision, UHC in Canada would be dust.
 
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