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U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed Air

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

When you add the words "on purpose," you redeem yourself. ;)



If you kill a civilian on purpose, you're wrong and should be prosecuted by a military tribunal. If you kill a civilian by accident, although you will live with that for the rest of your life, your countrymen shouldn't judge you. Soldiers are not perfect. Accidents happen. Please don't try to turn our battlefields into, "I've got to call my lawyer first."

I agree, but I personally think there is a distinction between accidents that are just plain unavoidable, and accidental killings that occur through negligence or carelessness. It's true that sometimes a soldier is forced to make a split-second decision, is forced to make a guess, and guesses wrong, and in such a case it is unfair to blame anyone. It's also entirely probable that sometimes accidental killings occur through rashness, an itchy trigger finger, and/or unsound decision-making.
 
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Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

I agree, but I personally think there is a distinction between accidents that are just plain unavoidable, and accidental killings that occur through negligence or carelessness. It's true that sometimes a soldier is forced to make a split-second decision, is forced to make a guess, and guesses wrong, and in such a case it is unfair to blame anyone. It's also entirely probable that sometimes accidental killings occur through rashness, an itchy trigger finger, and/or unsound decision-making.

And who shall judge them? "Rashness...itchy trigger finger...unsound decision-making"

Maybe I could understand if a fellow soldier called a soldier on it...but only then.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

And who shall judge them? "Rashness...itchy trigger finger...unsound decision-making"

Maybe I could understand if a fellow soldier called a soldier on it...but only then.

Well there's no video of this incident, and judging by your earlier post the US military is denying it even happened, so in this case it's hard for anyone to judge I agree. In other cases (such as the Apache "collateral murder" video), the information available to the individual, and their entire sequence of actions was discernible to the public through the release of the gun camera footage. It certainly puts people (who may not necessarily be soldiers or helicopter pilots) in a much better position to judge the actions of those involved when information like that is released. For the record, if anyone has seen that footage I felt the firing on the white van (which later turned out to be an emergency vehicle) to be entirely unnecessary, and that is something that I would consider "rash."

I disagree with the belief that only soldiers can judge other soldiers. While I concede that there aren't many other experiences in the world that approximate the heat of battle, people in many other professions are required to make tough, life-and-death decisions every day in stressful environments. On this forum we certainly make a habit of criticizing and judging those individuals and their decisions, despite not being in their shoes and not being privy to the information (or lack thereof) that influenced their decision-making process.
 
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Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

While I concede that there aren't many other experiences in the world that approximate the heat of battle, people in many other professions are required to make tough, life-and-death decisions every day in stressful environments. On this forum we certainly make a habit of criticizing and judging those individuals and their decisions, despite not being in their shoes and not being privy to the information (or lack thereof) that influenced their decision-making process.

I want links to ANYBODY criticizing ANY decision made in ANY environment even halfway as stressful as a soldier in war on this forum.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

I want links to ANYBODY criticizing ANY decision made in ANY environment even halfway as stressful as a soldier in war on this forum.

And just how stressful is such an environment? Different soldiers and troops face different situations. How would you even measure "halfway?" Is a trooper pinned down by suppressive fire from the enemy in the same "stressful environment" as an Apache pilot who can rain fire down onto the ground with impunity? People make tough life-and-death decisions every day. Troops certainly get it a lot worse than most but they are hardly the only ones.

I disagree with the notion that the decisions and actions of troops are somehow untouchable because they operate in a stressful environment. Yes soldiers have it tough. Yes soldiers make mistakes. Yes, they're human. No, they shouldn't be immune from criticism.
 
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Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Maybe we should only use our soldiers when we declare war then? While a soldier volenteers their life, a civilian from a country we have our militairy in might not.

Sure, but that's a whole other issue. Candy and nuts and all that ****. Whether or not we should only use soldiers when we declare war is irrelevant to the fact that our soldiers are there, were in this position, and had to act.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Isn't it a cardinal sin to not have identified your target before you shoot...should at least figure out if your target is armed/hostile before one pulls the trigger?

Yeah, I guess that chooper crew could have waited to see if those civilians started killing the downed air crew, before they hosed them down.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

And just how stressful is such an environment? Different soldiers and troops face different situations. How would you even measure "halfway?" Is a trooper pinned down by suppressive fire from the enemy in the same "stressful environment" as an Apache pilot who can rain fire down onto the ground with impunity? People make tough life-and-death decisions every day. Troops certainly get it a lot worse than most but they are hardly the only ones.

I disagree with the notion that the decisions and actions of troops are somehow untouchable because they operate in a stressful environment. Yes soldiers have it tough. Yes soldiers make mistakes. Yes, they're human. No, they shouldn't be immune from criticism.

In a word, yes. IMO, on today's battlefield, it more stressful killing the enemy than it is to worry about being killed by the enemy.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Yeah, I guess that chooper crew could have waited to see if those civilians started killing the downed air crew, before they hosed them down.

Or, hypothetically, instead of waiting they could have fired warning shots, or bracket them, to hold them off until they got close enough to tell who they were shooting at.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

In a word, yes. IMO, on today's battlefield, it more stressful killing the enemy than it is to worry about being killed by the enemy.

You're entitled to your own opinion. I disagree.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Or, hypothetically, instead of waiting they could have fired warning shots, or bracket them, to hold them off until they got close enough to tell who they were shooting at.

You don't even know what bracket means, in relations to bringing fire to bear. Do you?

Ultimately, none of us were there and don't know enough about the situation to armchair quarterback this thing. The crew of the gunship are among the best trained soldiers in the world and I believe they did what they thought was best and will accept their decision as the best decision for that particular scenario.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

You're entitled to your own opinion. I disagree.

My opinion is based on real world experience. And your's?
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

My opinion is based on real world experience. And your's?

Really now, I hadn't realized you were both air cav AND a ground-pounder.

My opinion is based on common sense. Potentially getting killed is more stressful than being able to kill someone else from the air with little danger to yourself. I'd like to see you refute that reasoning.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

You don't even know what bracket means, in relations to bringing fire to bear. Do you?

Ultimately, none of us were there and don't know enough about the situation to armchair quarterback this thing. The crew of the gunship are among the best trained soldiers in the world and I believe they did what they thought was best and will accept their decision as the best decision for that particular scenario.

On that we agree.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

And just how stressful is such an environment? Different soldiers and troops face different situations. How would you even measure "halfway?" Is a trooper pinned down by suppressive fire from the enemy in the same "stressful environment" as an Apache pilot who can rain fire down onto the ground with impunity? People make tough life-and-death decisions every day. Troops certainly get it a lot worse than most but they are hardly the only ones.

I disagree with the notion that the decisions and actions of troops are somehow untouchable because they operate in a stressful environment. Yes soldiers have it tough. Yes soldiers make mistakes. Yes, they're human. No, they shouldn't be immune from criticism.

Stress is always a factor. I don't care who you are....Stress kills.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Stress is always a factor. I don't care who you are....Stress kills.

Don't have to tell me that...I'm 20 and I've had white hairs on my head since I was like 17 lol.
 
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Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Really now, I hadn't realized you were both air cav AND a ground-pounder.

My opinion is based on common sense. Potentially getting killed is more stressful than being able to kill someone else from the air with little danger to yourself. I'd like to see you refute that reasoning.

Obviously, you haven't been paying attention, or you haven't been here long enough, or you never bother to actually ****ing ask. If any of those conditions exited, you would know that I never made any claim to being, "air cav".

For the record and your future reference, I cut my teeth in the mechanized infantry as a Bradley Fighting Vehicle Crewman (11M). I spent a year as a straight leg grunt in Korea and 15 months in a division recon detachment (LRRP-D). Aside from that, I was a mounted infantryman, all the way. Hoohah?
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Obviously, you haven't been paying attention, or you haven't been here long enough, or you never bother to actually ****ing ask. If any of those conditions exited, you would know that I never made any claim to being, "air cav".

For the record and your future reference, I cut my teeth in the mechanized infantry as a Bradley Fighting Vehicle Crewman (11M). I spent a year as a straight leg grunt in Korea and 15 months in a division recon detachment (LRRP-D). Aside from that, I was a mounted infantryman, all the way. Hoohah?

If you had been paying attention you would have realized that that was a sarcastic statement. Now since it's apparent that you weren't a chopper pilot, where in your personal experience does it say being able to kill with impunity from the air is more stressful than getting pinned down and potentially getting killed?
 
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Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

If you had been paying attention you would have realized that that was a sarcastic statement. Now since it's apparent that you weren't a chopper pilot, where in your personal experience does it say being able to kill with impunity from the air is more stressful than getting pinned down and potentially getting killed?

Never said anything about, "killing from the air". I was talking about killing, period.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Never said anything about, "killing from the air". I was talking about killing, period.

Well, I was.

But fine. Okay. So you think killing is more stressful than dying. The military's training prepares you for the first. It doesn't do as much to prepare you for the second. I still believe that getting killed is more stressful than pulling the trigger. What exactly is your reasoning for believing the reverse?
 
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Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Well, I was.

But fine. Okay. So you think killing is more stressful than dying. The military's training prepares you for the first. It doesn't do as much to prepare you for the second.

On today's battlefield? Yes, I believe it is.

I still believe that getting killed is more stressful than pulling the trigger. What exactly is your reasoning for believing the reverse?

I guess honor would be the best explanation. I would rather lose my life on a battlefield, than spend the rest of my life in the stockade after I unknowingly committed a war crime.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

ROEs are always hard to define even though the military does its best to, things like "you may always use lethal force in self defense" has room for interpretation. For example if you are a downed pilot and see what appears to be a group of people approaching you, some may be armed, does self defense include requesting bombs be dropped? After all if they are hostile allowing them to get closer compromises you're ability to fight or evade, and it may be a decision that costs you your life if you choose not to request the bombs. So you're ability to defend yourself is weakened. And of course the military allows for reasonable mistakes, for example an infantryman observes a kid running towards him with what appears to be an AK47, upon shooting and killing him he discovers it was just an air-soft rifle which looks exactly like an AK47. But if he hadn't shot the kid would have been in a good position to kill him if the rifle was real.

So in the end an investigation must be conducted, there's no right answer to these questions and you can always think of different tricky situations and ask what if. I always tell my Soldiers to think, "if questioned can you defend your actions with absolute certainty." But of course there's not always certainty and sometimes you don't have a chance to think.

But odds are the pilot received plenty of ROE briefs and probably acted within them so regardless if you think he was wrong the military will probably find no fault.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Well, I was.

But fine. Okay. So you think killing is more stressful than dying. The military's training prepares you for the first. It doesn't do as much to prepare you for the second. I still believe that getting killed is more stressful than pulling the trigger. What exactly is your reasoning for believing the reverse?

If you are doing the deed, bask in the glory that is killing people that need killing without having to worry about going to trial. Embrace the hate. Enjoy the press of a fine trigger.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

On today's battlefield? Yes, I believe it is.



I guess honor would be the best explanation. I would rather lose my life on a battlefield, than spend the rest of my life in the stockade after I unknowingly committed a war crime.

That's the first thing you've ever said on this forum that gives me a single ounce of respect for you. Color me slightly surprised, I can wholeheartedly agree with this.
 
Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

ROEs are always hard to define even though the military does its best to, things like "you may always use lethal force in self defense" has room for interpretation. For example if you are a downed pilot and see what appears to be a group of people approaching you, some may be armed, does self defense include requesting bombs be dropped? After all if they are hostile allowing them to get closer compromises you're ability to fight or evade, and it may be a decision that costs you your life if you choose not to request the bombs. So you're ability to defend yourself is weakened. And of course the military allows for reasonable mistakes, for example an infantryman observes a kid running towards him with what appears to be an AK47, upon shooting and killing him he discovers it was just an air-soft rifle which looks exactly like an AK47. But if he hadn't shot the kid would have been in a good position to kill him if the rifle was real.

So in the end an investigation must be conducted, there's no right answer to these questions and you can always think of different tricky situations and ask what if. I always tell my Soldiers to think, "if questioned can you defend your actions with absolute certainty." But of course there's not always certainty and sometimes you don't have a chance to think.

But odds are the pilot received plenty of ROE briefs and probably acted within them so regardless if you think he was wrong the military will probably find no fault.

I agree. We'll see what the military has to say. Right now they are denying it even happened.
 
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