U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed Air

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

This is maybe good reason why we shouldn't get involved in **** that ain't our business.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Zyphlin said:

For all of us civilians who want to boo hoo it and cry foul and say how horrible of a monster he is an the american soldiers life wasn't any more important than the villagers...

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I'll say it if nobody else will. The life of one American soldier is worth the lives of any number of Libyans. Any man believes otherwise can't be trusted with the lives of American soldiers.

We're willing to bleed for the cause of peace and order in Libya. I disagree with it, but that's what we've decided and I support it. But when it comes time to choose between American lives and Libyan lives, I will choose American lives every time. The only consideration that is worth more than the lives of American soldiers is the success of their mission.

Grant said:

The problem in much of the Muslim world as that nobody really knows who is a 'civilian' and who is not. Witness the most recent bombing of innocents bombed in Jerusalem. I doubt that perpetrator wore any identifying markings.

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There's no such thing as civilians. We taught the world that in the war that gave birth to us. It is shameful that we have forgotten it ourselves.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Viktyr Korimir said:

I'll say it if nobody else will. The life of one American soldier is worth the lives of any number of Libyans. Any man believes otherwise can't be trusted with the lives of American soldiers.

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American lives, IMO, are well more valuable. Which is why I don't think we should be over there in the first place. Let them sort out their own troubles, we've got our own.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Didn't anybody learn anything by watching the video of the Apache helo (mistakenly) taking out those reporters and then the people who tried to help them?

Don't go into a battle zone unless you are willing to get your ass lit up. Even to help the wounded or dying.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

dontworrybehappy said:

You can't read minds. How many soldiers have been blown up in Iraq by innocent looking people with bombs on their belts? Approaching unknowns are hostiles in a combat zone. A pilot that has gone down in hostile territory should not be approached at all. Unless they can be absolutely proven to be harmless, which would only be something accomplished after interrogating them, I feel that the soldier did the right thing. Hindsight is always 20-20.

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I saw a soldier get stabbed in the neck by a "friendly" 12 year old iraqi boy who had a knife hidden under his coat.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

IF something like this happens (and happens to be true. And I mean a non-combatant dying at our hands) and it was accident then the killer should be removed from service for not having good enough judgement. If it is somehow proven to be more than an accident we need to charge our own with terrorism or we are just hypocrits.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

dirtpoorchris said:

IF something like this happens (and happens to be true. And I mean a non-combatant dying at our hands) and it was accident then the killer should be removed from service for not having good enough judgement. If it is somehow proven to be more than an accident we need to charge our own with terrorism or we are just hypocrits.

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What?????? Ya' had me 'til your first sentence.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

MaggieD said:

What?????? Ya' had me 'til your first sentence.

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Are you a follower of "Do as I say, not as I do"?

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

dirtpoorchris said:

Are you a follower of "Do as I say, not as I do"?

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No, Chris. (I love your name, btw.)

Soldiers are not perfect human beings. They are going to make mistakes. Innocent people are going to die in war. That's reality. You "lost me" when you said, And I mean a non-combatant dying at our hands -- and it was accident -- then the killer should be removed from service for not having good enough judgement.

Maybe you are very young. No offense intended. But soldiers have split seconds to make decisions. Make the wrong one. You die. Or someone else does. They are not expected to be perfect. But they are expected to act within the rules of engagement and without malice. That is alllll we can rightfully expect from soldiers who are told, "Go forth and fight for your country."

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

dirtpoorchris said:

IF something like this happens (and happens to be true. And I mean a non-combatant dying at our hands) and it was accident then the killer should be removed from service for not having good enough judgement. If it is somehow proven to be more than an accident we need to charge our own with terrorism or we are just hypocrits.

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So if the guy hadn't shot, and these people had been enemies, and killed the soldier on the ground...should the person also have been removed in that situation as well for not having "good enough judgement".

Real life isn't Ghost in the Shell, peopel aren't anime characters with picture perfect reflexes, and every situation isn't cut and dry simple mathmetics to discover exactly what is going on. Sometimes you have a limited amount of time at hands and your choices is either gamble with one life or gamble with the other.

If he didn't have time or ability from mid air in a chopper to make a clear cut unquestionable determination on who or what these people were then he had to choose...gamble on their lives or gamble on the soldiers life. Either way, he was going to have to make an educated guess with the cost of failure being someone wrongfully getting hurt.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

too damn many people speak without knowing WTF they are talking about. if your sole experience with combat is playing "call of duty" on the x-box, you really don't have much room to criticize soldiers who are in actual combat.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

dontworrybehappy said:

Very unfortunate, but you don't approach a downed US pilot during a military operation. Even with good intentions.

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I'm not seeing corroboration of this story in any other news source.

If it happened it's a shame - nothing strikes me as deliberate and the copter pilot wouldn't have had much time to react.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

OscarB63 said:

too damn many people speak without knowing WTF they are talking about. if your sole experience with combat is playing "call of duty" on the x-box, you really don't have much room to criticize soldiers who are in actual combat.

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I also play Halo, am I qualified? I've started up Killzone 3 too.

But in the end, I don't know all the information but it's hard to blame the soldier given the dynamics of the warfront there. There have certainly been aggressive civilians who have gone after troops if they were presented the chance. It's a split second decision. I mean, there does need to be investigation to make sure it is what it is; but there are even friendly fire accidents in war. I think what this points to the most is not that our troops should be punished if they have to make one of these split second decisions based on their combat experience. But rather that we as the owners of the government and thus the military have a responsibility to our soldiers. We shouldn't have to put them in situations like this where there is no real threat to America and have them put their lives on the line for other sovereign states which should be handling their own business. We should not be the world police, nor should we ask our military to behave as such.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

So if a California boy was found guilty of killing civs on purpose it wouldnt be terrorism in your eyes?

But if some brown guy that worships Allah killed civs on purpose it would ammount to terrorism or no?

What im saying is! If testimony from fellow soldiers and bulletproof evidence was ever shown in any situation and it was one of our guys doing the deed would you think hes a terrorist or does it only apply to other countries? Us being there and civilians dying by US hands DOES affect political outcome and scare people.

If this situation turned out to be real and they guy was somehow found guilty of causing choas on purpose its not okay to call it out?

As for accidents... If you kill someone that doesnt pose a threat you do not belong on todays modern battlefield. With the gaint weapons of destruction we have how can you feel okay about not removing soldiers that have accidents? We arent takling about video games here. You guys are absolutely right. We are talking about real human life. **** that cant come back once taken.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Ikari said:

We should not be the world police, nor should we ask our military to behave as such.

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true, but if people are going to insist that we do act as world police, they need to STFU and let us do it. funny how if we do go in to some other country to try to help, all the pacifists cry about it and if we don't go in and try to help, the same damn people piss themselves crying that we should have done something.

The US is in a no win situation with crap like this. damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

dirtpoorchris said:

As for accidents... If you kill someone that doesnt pose a threat you do not belong on todays modern battlefield.

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ever been on a battlefield? it's not like playstation or x-box. telling who does or does not pose a threat is not always easy AND...the guy that wasn't posing a threat 2 minutes ago could be posing a major threat 2 seconds from now.

unless you have been there and done that, you have no right to judge those who have.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

OscarB63 said:

ever been on a battlefield? it's not like playstation or x-box. telling who does or does not pose a threat is not always easy AND...the guy that wasn't posing a threat 2 minutes ago could be posing a major threat 2 seconds from now.

unless you have been there and done that, you have no right to judge those who have.

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No but some crazy **** shot at me and my fellow boyscouts when I was a kid way down in Imperial Valley. Don't think that counts enough though.

Volenteering to join a force to defend your country has its costs and burdens. That does not mean one should have an OK pass for for accidentally taking someones life.

I guess you can just blame my hippe views on boyscouts and keep dismissing me as insignificant.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

dirtpoorchris said:

So if a California boy was found guilty of killing civs on purpose it wouldnt be terrorism in your eyes?

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Would depend entirely on his motivations and his potential connections.

But if some brown guy that worships Allah killed civs on purpose it would ammount to terrorism or no?

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See above.

What im saying is! If testimony from fellow soldiers and bulletproof evidence was ever shown in any situation and it was one of our guys doing the deed would you think hes a terrorist or does it only apply to other countries?

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Evidence of what? Something I'd consider a terrorist act? Sure. I'd call him a terrorist. This situation isn't anywhere near that.

Us being there and civilians dying by US hands DOES affect political outcome and scare people.

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This is the most ignorant, simplistic, twisted attempt of spinning what terrorism is that I've seen in a long time.

If this situation turned out to be real and they guy was somehow found guilty of causing choas on purpose its not okay to call it out?

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No one in this thread have said this guy should have nothing done to him if he did it knowingly that these people were civilians or even attempting to sort it out.

People had issues with you stating that even if he took every precaution possible to find out the purpose of these individuals before opening fire due to a belief that there was a possability that the others soldiers life was at risk that you thought he should still be essentially dishonorably discharged for having "bad judgement".

As for accidents... If you kill someone that doesnt pose a threat you do not belong on todays modern battlefield.

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Which is retarted you're stating that in reference to this. A group of people in a hostile location with no discernable way to know if they're friendly or not approaching a downed soldier IS a potential threat. Whether or not they are DEFINITELY a threat is what had to be determined, and on "todays modern battlefield" that is not always a binary 0 and 1 type of situation.

With the gaint weapons of destruction we have how can you feel okay about not removing soldiers that have accidents?

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Because I don't live in a fantasy land of video games and anime with a warped sense of what war and split second life or death decisions actually entail.

We are talking about human life. Guess what, the soldier on the ground is human as well.

You still haven't answered any of my questions...no surprise.

What would your stance have been if he hadn't shot because he wasn't positive of their intent...and they killed the guy on the ground. Should the pilot have been discharged then as well?

Why do you feel its better to gamble on the life of the american rather than the life of the libyans? Because either way this pilot acted, if he wasn't 100% sure, he was taking a gamble on one side or the other's health.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

War is messy even if it is a non-war or whatever the current administration is calling it.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Zyphlin said:

We are talking about human life. Guess what, the soldier on the ground is human as well.

You still haven't answered any of my questions...no surprise.

What would your stance have been if he hadn't shot because he wasn't positive of their intent...and they killed the guy on the ground. Should the pilot have been discharged then as well?

Why do you feel its better to gamble on the life of the american rather than the life of the libyans? Because either way this pilot acted, if he wasn't 100% sure, he was taking a gamble on one side or the other's health.

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Maybe we should only use our soldiers when we declare war then? While a soldier volenteers their life, a civilian from a country we have our militairy in might not.

I was thinking that maybe we should have a new "Didn't Make it to the End of the Road" badge. (please think of a better single word for me in the extreeme far shot that you would somehow actually agree. Maybe just call it "Discharged"?) I would not want a soldier to face dishonor for an accident. But I dont want him holding a gun either. (but this would lead to bad apples fragging a single civ just go get sent home and that could be very bad)

Maybe if we where in an actual war with people landing on our shores accidents are a little more permissable. But we have a President using militairy force and it appears to be not challangable by the poeple at all. SCARY. What if some hostile country decides to land any amount of mercs on our land at commit an act of terrorism? Is our current establishment going to lead a coalition of willing without congress?

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

dirtpoorchris said:

So if a California boy was found guilty of killing civs on purpose it wouldnt be terrorism in your eyes?
But if some brown guy that worships Allah killed civs on purpose it would ammount to terrorism or no?

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When you add the words "on purpose," you redeem yourself.

As for accidents... If you kill someone that doesnt pose a threat you do not belong on todays modern battlefield. With the gaint weapons of destruction we have how can you feel okay about not removing soldiers that have accidents? We arent takling about video games here. You guys are absolutely right. We are talking about real human life. **** that cant come back once taken.

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If you kill a civilian on purpose, you're wrong and should be prosecuted by a military tribunal. If you kill a civilian by accident, although you will live with that for the rest of your life, your countrymen shouldn't judge you. Soldiers are not perfect. Accidents happen. Please don't try to turn our battlefields into, "I've got to call my lawyer first."

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

OscarB63 said:

true, but if people are going to insist that we do act as world police, they need to STFU and let us do it. funny how if we do go in to some other country to try to help, all the pacifists cry about it and if we don't go in and try to help, the same damn people piss themselves crying that we should have done something.

The US is in a no win situation with crap like this. damned if we do, damned if we don't.

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I'm fine with not going in and helping. Our military is damned good at what it's trained to do. They are not trained to be police officers, they're trained to be soldiers. There's a big difference. When you start demanding police action out of the military, you expose the military to additional dangers, regulations, and rules which normally wouldn't apply. We are not good with the whole imperial thing. And I for one say good. I want a strong, unstoppable, defensive military. If the men and women of the military are resolved to put it all on the line for my rights and sovereignty; then that's all I want them fighting for. It's a huge commitment to say that you'll run into these areas and fight, possibly die, in order to protect. We have a duty to honor that resolve and to ask our military only to act on that integrity when our own freedom and sovereignty are at stake.

Other countries have to fend for themselves, I'm not going to pay in terms of American blood and American money for other people's governments. They can do that themselves.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Ikari said:

American lives, IMO, are well more valuable. Which is why I don't think we should be over there in the first place. Let them sort out their own troubles, we've got our own.

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That's the position I would take if I were in power. That's not the course of action we're following. It's better to be 110% wrong than to be 90% right.

dirtpoorchris said:

So if a California boy was found guilty of killing civs on purpose it wouldnt be terrorism in your eyes?

But if some brown guy that worships Allah killed civs on purpose it would ammount to terrorism or no?

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We destroy terrorists because they hurt us. There's nothing to be gained by destroying our own people for hurting others. Especially under conditions where they are expected to.

dirtpoorchris said:

As for accidents... If you kill someone that doesnt pose a threat you do not belong on todays modern battlefield. With the gaint weapons of destruction we have how can you feel okay about not removing soldiers that have accidents? We arent takling about video games here. You guys are absolutely right. We are talking about real human life. **** that cant come back once taken.

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If you're on today's modern battlefield, most of the time you don't know who poses a threat so you're forced to assume everyone does. You have to make your best judgment based on the information you have. It's absolutely asinine to think we should destroy good soldiers because they were forced to guess and guessed wrong.

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Viktyr Korimir said:

We destroy terrorists because they hurt us. There's nothing to be gained by destroying our own people for hurting others. Especially under conditions where they are expected to.

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So then are you saying we are attacking Kaddafi but hes not a terrorist or that if an American is a terrorist he shouldnt be stopped?

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

dirtpoorchris said:

Maybe we should only use our soldiers when we declare war then? While a soldier volenteers their life, a civilian from a country we have our militairy in might not.

I was thinking that maybe we should have a new "Didn't Make it to the End of the Road" badge. (please think of a better single word for me in the extreeme far shot that you would somehow actually agree. Maybe just call it "Discharged"?) I would not want a soldier to face dishonor for an accident. But I dont want him holding a gun either. (but this would lead to bad apples fragging a single civ just go get sent home and that could be very bad)

Maybe if we where in an actual war with people landing on our shores accidents are a little more permissable. But we have a President using militairy force and it appears to be not challangable by the poeple at all. SCARY. What if some hostile country decides to land any amount of mercs on our land at commit an act of terrorism? Is our current establishment going to lead a coalition of willing without congress?

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Malpractice suits for the military?

Look, no one can blame villagers for being ignorant of a soldiers paranoia but you can't blame a soldier for their paranoia in a foreign land where they're engaging an enemy who is likely to use asymetrical tactics. It'd be nuts to be rid of any soldier capable of making an error - you'd have no one left.