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The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians ...

Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I just don't understand when it crosses the line into atrocity. 1,000s of civilians have been killed in every U.S. military conflict. Why is it suddenly evil when these guys do it?
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Im not shocked. Im repulsed and disgusted...but not shocked. I know these men are on trial and believe they will be punished to the fullest extent of the military law. In that I take comfort, knowing that we as a people dont glorify the slaughter of innocents by excusing their behavior or worse, dancing in the streets chanting how great is our God.
These types of events always happened. Unfortunately we have a lot of soldiers today being led by soldiers who are themselves very young and immature themselves. They dont THINK long term....they dont use their executive functioning. Many arent even old enough for their brain to have fully developed. Immature'leaders of men' that allow and in fact encourage/participate in these events....no excuse. Tragic for the victims and for the families of those they are accused of killing. Tragic that their mindless acts will bring scorn and shame on other soldiers who go out of their way to serve honorably. Tragic that a handful of scumbags will be the broad brush used to paint the color and honor of the military. Tragic that they did it. Tragic that others will use it for their own purposes.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Cole, based on the plea and the details in the OP article, it does appear to be not just murder, but premeditated murder. If what has been reported so far is true(which is an assumption and not necessarily the case), then there are no excuses for what they did. It was vile, it hurts the mission, it was wrong in every aspect and they deserve everything they get from the judicial system.

certainly so, but i would argue there are still extenuating circumstances for some kills that turn out to be illigetimate. often you don't have a clear good-guy-bad-guy dichotomy available to you in the second and a half that you have to make a decision; and after the noise is over, you've got a body. the natural impulse is to highlight the reasons why the man was guilty and why the decision to shoot was the right one. we blew an elderly man to bits in front of his entire family. why? because he accelerated a bongo truck at us after we tried to get him to stop and slow down, and it simply wasn't worth the risk that he was an SVBIED. that doesn't make him any less ultimately innocent, or any less dead. and yeah, we threw out flags and popped some smoke afterwards and Everyone Agreed that we had gone through the Entire Official Order ROE Procedure (magically, in the 3 seconds that we had after he hit the accelerator before it would have been too late) rather than simply waved a hand, a flag, and shot the grill of his vehicle.

even the man's family said that they didn't hold us responsible. of course, we were all holding big guns and we had just blown apart their grandad, so they may have been telling us what they thought we wanted to hear. i guess i'm just trying to point out that - as obviously insanely evil as this looks - that sometimes these things can become so befuddled and grey as to defy simple analysis. I can think offhand of several Iraqi's that i know to be responsible for the deaths of good men that I would willingly murder given the ability and opportunity.
 
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Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

it doesn't make them any less guilty, nor does it alter the necessary eventual response. like a beaten dog that attacks people, you can feel sorry that it turned, but you still have to put it down.

^^^ Sadly, that's exactly right.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I just don't understand when it crosses the line into atrocity. 1,000s of civilians have been killed in every U.S. military conflict. Why is it suddenly evil when these guys do it?

Casualties of war occur. In this instance these civilians are alleged to be the target of intentional acts.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Why are we debating **** like this? What the **** is there to debate about it. All this thread is for, is a so liberal can kick the military in the teeth and that is all it's for. Tell me what's here to discuss.
There is nothing debatable here. It seems to me that the main intent of the OP is to demonize the US military.

This is a political forum and this is a big news story with political consequences, isn't that enough to start a thread?

The only part of the OP that could be construed as criticism of the military is this: I don't know which bit is the worst part. The idea the photos were attempted to be hidden by the US or the apology only came when they got leaked.

Is the OP wrong in saying that the military attempted to hide the photos and/or that the apology only came after the story has leaked?

If the OP is wrong, then show that it is wrong and clear the criticisms against the Military's handling of this situation.

If it is correct, then it's valid criticisms of the US military. If valid criticism base on fact is "demoniz[ing]" then the military essentially gets a free-pass with no accountability. The people at the top needs to learn that when something goes wrong, hidding them from the public (who they are supposed to work for) is not okay. There's a small group within any organisation that might do wrong, own up to that fact without being forced to by the media and learn from it.

I would have thought the OP was perfectly valid - it's also an international news story that will affect how the continued mission in Afghanistan goes on if the US forces do not quickly control the story.

Further, what Laila said about the delay in the apology is perfectly valid - if what these 12 rogue soldiers did had been known about for a year or so then those in command should have had plenty of time to deal with any eventual leak of the story. If they haven't done any preparation for how to handle the story when it did break headlines then that is worrying.

Seems just as worrying here on this forum that attempts are made to kill the thread off as "liberals trying to bash the US military."
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

yes, because if there is one thing that we don't have, it's gangs in inner cities. or violent pockets of extremism in France. or cartels in Mexico.

This is probably the dumbest argument I've ever seen on DP, TOT included.

I just don't understand when it crosses the line into atrocity. 1,000s of civilians have been killed in every U.S. military conflict. Why is it suddenly evil when these guys do it?

Because when these guys do it it's a "few bad apples". When it's "business as usual" it's collateral losses.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

I just don't understand when it crosses the line into atrocity. 1,000s of civilians have been killed in every U.S. military conflict. Why is it suddenly evil when these guys do it?

When it seems to become an "enjoyment" to kill?

Society seems to feel that when we kill other human beings we should not enjoy it. To enjoy it would be evil. But from what I read and hear from people, killing creates an adrenaline rush, which is the way evolution made us. Nevertheless, I find it hard to believe that these 12 didn't know that what they do is not condoned. They choose to go over the line, no matter how arbitrary that line, and they should be punished.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Because when these guys do it it's a "few bad apples". When it's "business as usual" it's collateral losses.

Way back in the old days, those engaging in combat wore distinct uniforms and the two sides met on a field of battle. Today, the enemy wears clothes like their civilian counterparts and hide amongst women and children, using them as shields and counting on the conscience of their opponents to hesitate or hold fire. Today, civilians will die. Its a fact of modern warfare. The military takes every effort to limit casualties. Can anyone say the same about their opponents? In fact their opponents go out of their way to kill innocents in markets and clubs. Different mindset altogether. And these people that are accused of murder...they also are of a different mindset.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Our Military practices are completely fair but when provoked to to harm other peoples to save our own the situation is justified.
Or nation is more important because it is your nation your fighting for.
 
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Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

This is probably the dumbest argument I've ever seen on DP, TOT included.



Because when these guys do it it's a "few bad apples". When it's "business as usual" it's collateral losses.

If the US military have guidelines that soldiers can take pictures of corpses as celebratory souvenirs, you think that would be seen as "okay"?
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Just guessing here, but I would speculate that drug abuse played a major part in this. Afghanistan and heroin are synonymous.

Pretty sure heroin abuse does not cause the taker to become violent or psychopathic. I very much doubt opiate abuse is a factor. Amphetamines, perhaps.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Way back in the old days, those engaging in combat wore distinct uniforms and the two sides met on a field of battle. Today, the enemy wears clothes like their civilian counterparts and hide amongst women and children, using them as shields and counting on the conscience of their opponents to hesitate or hold fire. Today, civilians will die. Its a fact of modern warfare. The military takes every effort to limit casualties. Can anyone say the same about their opponents? In fact their opponents go out of their way to kill innocents in markets and clubs. Different mindset altogether. And these people that are accused of murder...they also are of a different mindset.


Civilians always die in war. "Way back in the old days", killing villagers and destroying the whole village to deny the enemy santuary was a legitimate war tactic.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

It might not even be under those circumstances.At some times the pictures are required by an officer higher up not theyre fault.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

It might not even be under those circumstances.At some times the pictures are required by an officer higher up not theyre fault.

4000 of them by 12 people?
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Casualties of war occur. In this instance these civilians are alleged to be the target of intentional acts.

but who were the civilians? random people pulled out of their houses? part of the Talibans' early warning network? fighters? narcotics smugglers?
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

It might not even be under those circumstances.At some times the pictures are required by an officer higher up not theyre fault.
there's not a chance in hell that anyone in their right mind would want to be in possession of a picture like the first one. it's incriminating.

the victim has been severely beaten. his hands have at some stage been bound. he has no pants on.

i have seen plenty of dead people. never have i seen one with his pants taken off after they have been shot.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

4000 of them by 12 people?

trophy pictures are remarkably different from evidentiary pictures. notably, in trophy pictures someone is posing. when i took evidentiary pictures of bodies (which i did), the intent was to provide the scene utterly As It Was.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Yes that the gist of it.Wether I agree with it is completely different.All is fair in war. Wether the outcome of it is okay is a completely different story.Trophy pictures are wrong but to show the reality of what is really happening is OK.
 
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Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

but who were the civilians? random people pulled out of their houses? part of the Talibans' early warning network? fighters? narcotics smugglers?

Based on the murder guilty plea noted in the earlier post, am led to believe that the soldier didn't have any such defense. Sounds like they (the dead) were just victims.


.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

But circumstances rendering we are still missing the other side of the story or if we arent I have not read it.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Casualties of war occur. In this instance these civilians are alleged to be the target of intentional acts.

Isn't that called involuntary manslaughter? I would really like to see you explain that to the family. "I'm sorry I killed your son. But it was an accident. I was trying to kill some other people and he got in the way." Anyway, the bombing of Germany and Japan was intentional. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were definitely intentional. Intentionally killing civilians seems to be fine as long as its deemed to be for the good of the mission. Why does it become wrong when you lose that abstract notion of a greater good? It really isn't that much of a leap.
 
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Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Based on the murder guilty plea noted in the earlier post, am led to believe that the soldier didn't have any such defense

may have been a plea bargain. or guilt. who knows? I would still like better clarification on who the civilians in question were. it doesn't really change their legal guilt, but perhaps effects moral guilt.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

Way back in the old days, those engaging in combat wore distinct uniforms and the two sides met on a field of battle. Today, the enemy wears clothes like their civilian counterparts and hide amongst women and children, using them as shields and counting on the conscience of their opponents to hesitate or hold fire. Today, civilians will die. Its a fact of modern warfare. The military takes every effort to limit casualties. Can anyone say the same about their opponents? In fact their opponents go out of their way to kill innocents in markets and clubs. Different mindset altogether. And these people that are accused of murder...they also are of a different mindset.

Your mistake is in portraying the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan as wars.

If the US military have guidelines that soldiers can take pictures of corpses as celebratory souvenirs, you think that would be seen as "okay"?

What on earth are you going on about.

but who were the civilians? random people pulled out of their houses? part of the Talibans' early warning network? fighters? narcotics smugglers?

That is completely irrelevant.
 
Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians

There is nothing debatable here. It seems to me that the main intent of the OP is to demonize the US military.

when the factual behavior of demons is made public that is hardly demonizing

but that you find it so certainly explains some administrative actions
 
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