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U.S. Tomahawk Cruise Missiles Hit Targets in Libya

Ron Mars said:
How do we support an organization that gave Gaddafi a seat on the UNHRC?
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Are you forgetting all the many dictators the US has supported through the years? Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I would very much like to see the UN regain it's legitimacy. The world needs an organization like the UN used to be.
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Me too, and our support of the UN helps in that effort.
 
Catawba said:
Are you forgetting all the many dictators the US has supported through the years? Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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Many times there was a choice between so-and-so and another communist state.

The rebels in Libya are far from an ideal ally but if they win and Libya becomes free to decide their own system of government its a win-win.

Should the rebels win and Libya is one day ruled by another tyrant people will say we removed Gaddafi and supported tyrants and dictators.
 
Ron Mars said:
The rebels in Libya are far from an ideal ally but if they win and Libya becomes free to decide their own system of government its a win-win.
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Man, you sure about that?

Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links - Telegraph
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They killed Americans in Iraq, now Obama is going to arm them? How does this even come close to making sense.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Man, you sure about that?
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If the Libyans form a free and peaceful government, even if the people don't like us, its a win.

I've read the reports about al-Qaeda. Even the one where they pilfered SAM-7's and other stuff from a Libyan arsenal.

This is where 0bama's leadership is going to be tested. He needs to insit the rebels weed out the jihadis in their midst.

If jihadis gain control in Libya this will be for nothing.
 
Ron Mars said:
If the Libyans form a free and peaceful government, even if the people don't like us, its a win.

I've read the reports about al-Qaeda. Even the one where they pilfered SAM-7's and other stuff from a Libyan arsenal.

This is where 0bama's leadership is going to be tested. He needs to insit the rebels weed out the jihadis in their midst.

If jihadis gain control in Libya this will be for nothing.
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Yeah, he's not going to do that, hell Obama is afraid to even say we are involved much less show any leadership.

j-mac
 
Catawba said:
Are you forgetting all the many dictators the US has supported through the years? Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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Perhaps you should mention which Administration was responsible and name these dictators. Would you have had the the US go to war to eliminate all dictatorships? Was there ever a case of choosing one more benign dictator over another who was far worse?
 
j-mac said:
Yeah, he's not going to do that, hell Obama is afraid to even say we are involved much less show any leadership.

j-mac
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His performance has been less than inspiring so far no doubt. His speech was late and tepid.

Hillary is in/going to London to meet with rebel leaders this week and hopefully she will make it quite clear we have no intention of supporting jihadis.
I don't believe that's 0bama's intention.

I'm willing to give him some room on this one. After all, he's a community organizer by trade.
 
Ron Mars said:
If the Libyans form a free and peaceful government, even if the people don't like us, its a win.

I've read the reports about al-Qaeda. Even the one where they pilfered SAM-7's and other stuff from a Libyan arsenal.

This is where 0bama's leadership is going to be tested. He needs to insit the rebels weed out the jihadis in their midst.

If jihadis gain control in Libya this will be for nothing.
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But what evidence is there that they are not all Islamists in Libya, Egypt, and throughout the ME?

It seems to me that we are just guessing on the side of optimism.
 
Grant said:
But what evidence is there that they are not all Islamists in Libya, Egypt, and throughout the ME?

It seems to me that we are just guessing on the side of optimism.
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That's a legitimate concern. The US has had good and bad relations with Libya over the years. We fought in Libya during WWII and had military bases there until Gaddafi.

Libyans are for the most part like most people. They want to live in peace.

This effort is taking the chance that the rebel victors will allow the people to form a peaceful democratic government that rejects jihadis.

It's a big chance no doubt and there are many risks and legitimate reasons for concern and criticism.
 
I've been following this live feed from Libya for several weeks and there is some good info in it.

About 1 in 5 posters are in Libya reporting what they see, hear and also what news reports they can find.

It's offline right now which happens from time to time but there are some very interesting comments about the situation inside Libya, what's being reported, and what's happening in various cities in Libya.

libya - live streaming video powered by Livestream
 
Ron Mars said:
That's a legitimate concern. The US has had good and bad relations with Libya over the years. We fought in Libya during WWII and had military bases there until Gaddafi.

Libyans are for the most part like most people. They want to live in peace.

This effort is taking the chance that the rebel victors will allow the people to form a peaceful democratic government that rejects jihadis.

It's a big chance no doubt and there are many risks and legitimate reasons for concern and criticism.
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Germans only wanted to live in peace also, as did the Italians, South Koreans, Japanese, Iranians and so on down the list.

All people want to live in peace but sometimes their leaders, and highly effective propaganda, won't let them.

I would like to think these 'rebels' only want to live in peace also but those seeking democracy in the Middle East seem to have less of a functioning network going on throughout the area than those who would support Islamism.
 
Ron Mars said:
I've been following this live feed from Libya for several weeks and there is some good info in it.

About 1 in 5 posters are in Libya reporting what they see, hear and also what news reports they can find.

It's offline right now which happens from time to time but there are some very interesting comments about the situation inside Libya, what's being reported, and what's happening in various cities in Libya.

libya - live streaming video powered by Livestream
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Great!! thanks for that!
 
Ron Mars said:
The rebels in Libya are far from an ideal ally but if they win and Libya becomes free to decide their own system of government its a win-win.

Should the rebels win and Libya is one day ruled by another tyrant people will say we removed Gaddafi and supported tyrants and dictators.
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That's pretty much the case with any civil war in the middle east that we take sides in, isn't it? Even ones in which we spend over a trillion dollars and sacrifice tens of thousands of lives.
 
Grant said:
Perhaps you should mention which Administration was responsible and name these dictators
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.

Our support of ruthless dictators has been non-partisan. Both parties have done it

Would you have had the the US go to war to eliminate all dictatorships?
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No, I suggest we don't provide support for them.

Was there ever a case of choosing one more benign dictator over another who was far worse?
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In the same way one would choose to put one pile of **** in your mouth as opposed to another? Not, in my way of thinking.

.
 
Grant said:
Germans only wanted to live in peace also, as did the Italians, South Koreans, Japanese, Iranians and so on down the list.

All people want to live in peace but sometimes their leaders, and highly effective propaganda, won't let them.

I would like to think these 'rebels' only want to live in peace also but those seeking democracy in the Middle East seem to have less of a functioning network going on throughout the area than those who would support Islamism.
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I don't agree about the Germans or Japanese. The others yeah, I'd agree.

It's worth the risk IMO to at least help the people of Libya have a chance. Even if we fail.
 
Grant said:
Actually that's not the way it works, Catawba.

When you make claims it's up to you to support those claims.
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USA supported dictators:

"Abacha, General Sani - Nigeria
Amin, Idi - Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo - Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio - Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal - Brunei
Botha, P.W. - South Africa
Branco, General Humberto - Brazil
Cedras, Raoul - Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio - Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek - Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo - Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo - El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn - Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel - Liberia
Duvalier, Francois - Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude - Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King - Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco - Spain
Hitler, Adolf - Germany
Hassan II - Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand - Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano - El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko - Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel - Panama
Ozal, Turgut - Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza - Iran
Papadopoulos, George - Greece
Park Chung Hee - South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto - Chile
Pol Pot - Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni - Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios - Guatemala
Salassie, Halie - Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira - Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr. - Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr. - Nicaragua
Smith, Ian - Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo - Paraguay
Suharto, General - Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas - Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael - Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed - Pakistan"
USA Supported Dictators
 
Catawba said:
That's pretty much the case with any civil war in the middle east that we take sides in, isn't it? Even ones in which we spend over a trillion dollars and sacrifice tens of thousands of lives.
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That's a fair assesment.
 
Top Libyan minister defects to the U.K.

(CBS/AP)

"LONDON - Britain's Foreign Office says Libya's Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa has arrived in the UK and is resigning from his post.

The Foreign Office says in a statement Wednesday Moussa arrived from Tunisia, and that he traveled here under his own free will.

The statement says: "He has told us that he is resigning his post."

It was not immediately possible to confirm the statement with Moussa or people close to him.

"He has defected from the regime," Noman Benotman, a friend and senior analyst at Britain's Quilliam think tank, told Reuters. "He wasn't happy at all. He doesn't support the government attacks on civilians."

Koussa was one of Muammar Qaddafi's key officials and the architect of a dramatic shift in Libya's foreign policy that brought the country back to the international community after years of sanctions, Reuters reports."
 
today:

The second-ranking official in the State Department is leaving Foggy Bottom to return to academia, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced Wednesday.

James Steinberg, the deputy secretary of state, will leave the department soon for an academic post at Syracuse University, Clinton said.

Steinberg has long been said to be unhappy at the department, and thought to be more an ally of President Barack Obama than of Clinton. In a letter announcing his departure, though, Clinton was gracious. “On every foreign policy challenge, big and small, he has helped formulate our policy and oversee its execution,” she wrote to colleagues, in a letter quoted by ABC News.

Steinberg’s is the second high-profile departure from State since the beginning of March. Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs P.J. Crowley resigned two weeks ago after his comments calling the treatment of alleged Army leaker Bradley Manning “ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid” became public.
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Hillary Clinton?s No. 2 at State steps down - Jennifer Epstein - POLITICO.com

the state dept is in disarray

crowley was reportedly close to hillary

ms clinton two weeks ago brusquely informed wolf blitzer she was LEAVING

"pushed over the edge" by executive "indecesion", her camp leaked

"obviously, she’s not happy with dealing with a president who can’t decide if today is tuesday or wednesday, who can’t make his mind up"

"it's like playing sports with a bunch of amateurs"

Obama’s indecision on Libya has pushed Clinton over the edge | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

how did we get here
 
Ron Mars said:
I don't agree about the Germans or Japanese. The others yeah, I'd agree.

It's worth the risk IMO to at least help the people of Libya have a chance. Even if we fail.
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I wasn't clear but was implying pre WWII.

And it's not clear to me that they are even being helped and, even if they are, there is quite probably other peoples of the world who could use our help even more.

I was all for Iraq and would defend it today, but I'm not all that sure about Libya,
 
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